Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[Circle of Willis]

Reading just the last few pages of this thread has made me sad. Reflecting on the dismal state of Star Wars in Current Year+8 has made me sadder still.

It's been 3-4 years since TROS without another Star Wars movie, all such projects (like Rian Johnson's totally not cancelled trilogy) having been put on ice at best, and it's pretty much impossible to fathom how anyone is going to continue the 'story' of the sequels from where Plan IX from Outer Space left off with even the lead actors not wanting anything to do with SW anymore.

Andor dropped last September, was apparently OK if also slow & boring (full disclosure, never watched it because I frankly have no interest in Disney Wars media at this point except to hear about all the different and creative ways they fucked it up, just saw a Critical Drinker video about it and read some reviews) and yet was hindered by the horrible taste left in people's mouths by earlier TV shows like Book of Boba Fett & Kenobi.

High Republic's Phase II apparently kicked off last fall, to zero fanfare and apparently a pretty much totally apathetic flop of a reception. I honestly didn't know about they had gotten to that point until about five minutes ago when I specifically looked it up. And this is supposed to be Disney Wars' big push into KOTOR-tier worldbuilding?? SW print media in general seems to be dead, nobody wants any part of it (can't blame them when the likes of Chuck Wendig are/were the 'big names' involved).

New season of Bad Batch just dropped. Again, I've seen basically zero excitement for it even on Reddit, which is one of several major consoomer/bugman hives on the Internet and where great pains are taken to protect Disney Wars outside of specifically critical subreddits like r/salterthancrait.

Honestly it doesn't feel like there's any excitement for any Star Wars content anymore (and why would there be at this point?) It's a shame I've lost contact with those among my friends who used to insist that the Disney buyout and their canning of the old EU could only be beneficial, I'd love to see their reaction to the state of Nu-Star Wars lmao. Also, it's really quite depressing to contemplate how what started as a megahit film franchise has been reduced to pumping out TV shows like a drowning man flailing in the water and sucking in huge gulps of air every time he can, just to put off his death a little bit longer.

And because the Disney '''''canon''''' isn't enough of a jumbled mess with retcons, barely disguised authorial fetishes and favoritism, generally terrible characters, apparently no editorial wrangling of this idiocy to speak of, etc. out the ass, now they're going back to do what bad fanfic writers do and retcon the sexuality of major characters like that's going to even remotely come close to helping dig Star Wars out of the hole it's in? Under Disney's mismanagement this franchise feels like a walking zombie, something that should have died with TROS but is somehow impossibly still shambling around and moaning in pain, the film equivalent to The Simpsons. And it's been reduced to this state within less than 10 years since TFA!

 

[Skallagrim]

I mean...Daala as President of the Galactic Federation was a nightmare, but had she been in charge in Disney canon, the First Order would have died in its crib and the events of the sequel trilogy would never have happened to begin with.

at least she had the good sense to know when to step down.

You can say a lot about Kevin J. Anderson's writing finesse (or lack thereof), but at least when he wrote the character, she was actually pretty good at her job. Observed clinically, Daala was at least as successful as Thrawn during his original stint in Zahn's first three SW books-- if not more successful. And yes, she knew when she'd failed, and stepped down.

It was much later on, during Denning's run, that she was made into a real incompetent. Like... many characters, at that time.

Considering how dumb everybody is in Disney SW, if Daala was parachuted into that continuity a few years after Endor, she'd have curb-stomped all other factions within a month.

 

[Zyobot]

 

[Bear Ribs]

Seriously, how hard is it to write an actual strong female character? In Legends alone, there was Mara Jade, Nomi Sunrider, Bastila Shan, even Mon Mothma and of course Leia, just off the top of my head. I mean, FFS, Mon Mothma and Leia's characters were already well-established, so WTF happened?

As far as Rey herself, Daisy Ridley is kinda known for her very expressive face and tendency towards funny faces. She's certainly capable of a lot more than "wide-eyed doe in the headlights." This indicates really bad direction and they would have needed to be actively telling her to keep using that expression and not to go with her best feature. Generally and historically speaking when Disney starts making really stupid, really obvious mistakes over and over it's because one faction is trying to hose another faction's project and the company is suffering a rash of internal sabotage. It's notable that each sequel movie basically tears apart the previous one, so I'd bet a decent chunk of it was caused by different groups actively fighting each other and trying to ruin each other's project. The entire sequel trilogy was basically when Iger was about to step down and a new successor would be chosen, which is when Disney tends towards its most furious internal warfare. This is beyond probable purity spirals and virtue signalling, which would also be a symptom of groups trying to outdo each other and ruin each other's projects.

 

[Zyobot]

As far as Rey herself, Daisy Ridley is kinda known for her very expressive face and tendency towards funny faces. She's certainly capable of a lot more than "wide-eyed doe in the headlights." This indicates really bad direction and they would have needed to be actively telling her to keep using that expression and not to go with her best feature. Generally and historically speaking when Disney starts making really stupid, really obvious mistakes over and over it's because one faction is trying to hose another faction's project and the company is suffering a rash of internal sabotage. It's notable that each sequel movie basically tears apart the previous one, so I'd bet a decent chunk of it was caused by different groups actively fighting each other and trying to ruin each other's project. The entire sequel trilogy was basically when Iger was about to step down and a new successor would be chosen, which is when Disney tends towards its most furious internal warfare. This is beyond probable purity spirals and virtue signalling, which would also be a symptom of groups trying to outdo each other and ruin each other's projects.

Just a hunch, but I sense a reservoir of untapped meme potential here...

 

[Zyobot]

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Here is some cool stuff from the Galaxy's Edge art book:

They were thinking of doing a free-roaming animatronic, like Lucky the Dinosaur. Too bad it wasn't realized.

Cantina ideas

Cantina owner could have been a creature inside a water tank.

Cool barbecue

 

[Zyobot]

Here is some cool stuff from the Galaxy's Edge art book:

They were thinking of doing a free-roaming animatronic, like Lucky the Dinosaur. Too bad it wasn't realized.

Cantina ideas

Cantina owner could have been a creature inside a water tank.

Cool barbecue

Normally averse to quoting someone from a rival franchise here, but in this case, it was worth it.

 

[Sailor.X]

I see brought up a lot that Palpatine was the Greatest Sith Emperor. But his Galactic Empire couldn't even last 25 years.......... Where as Sith like Darth Vitiate ruled his empire for 1,500 years....... Palpatine may have been a powerful force user. But he was weak sauce in making a long lasting empire.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

I see brought up a lot that Palpatine was the Greatest Sith Emperor. But his Galactic Empire couldn't even last 25 years.......... Where as Sith like Darth Vitiate ruled his empire for 1,500 years....... Palpatine may have been a powerful force user. But he was weak sauce in making a long lasting empire.

Not to mention the Galactic Empire was modeled after the (reconstituted) Sith Empire. Darth Sidious even waxed thoughtfully on the parallels between the Star Destroyers of his Empire, and the Harrowers of Darth Vitiate's Empire. He even introduced Darth Vader to Darth Malgus' legacy, something that greatly inspired Darth Vader.

Sidious and Vader aside, Darth Plagueis similarly respected Darth Vitiate, and even admitted out of all the preceding generations of Sith, Darth Vitiate was the one who came closest to achieving the Sith's ultimate goal: apotheosis.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Vitiate the Old Republic guy with the well trimmed beard?

I really loved all of the Knights of the Old Republic games and did a few runs through the MMO but as soon as I delved into the lore behind it all, I dunno... I found it rather underwhelming and disappointing (in part probably because said lore wasn't even in game but read off of Wookieepedia entries and lore videos based off of other ancillary licensed works and DLC that came years later). Reading a fandom encyclopedia entry tends to have a lot less impact than being haunted by Darth Sion and Nihilus for most of a game, especially when you learn about salient points like about how the true evil who trounced Revan (offscreen and between games) looked like an Uptown Boomer.

What is the point of this post again? Nothing.

I'm just whining.

 

[Skallagrim]

From a Doylist perspective, Darth Vitiate is a problem for the lore and the internal consistency of the setting. Not just for the story-telling reasons that @Husky_Khan points out (although those are, in my view, accurate!) but also because Vitiate goes against a fairly consistent bit of world-building that explicitly came from Lucas at the very start of the EU:

Sith Empires can't last.

We see this right in the way things play out throughout the Tales of the Jedi comics (which spanned millennia): every time the Sith have built up their power and actually unite under one ruler, they go on a conquering spree... and then it crashes and burns. Either they get defeated by their enemies because they're egotistical megalomaniacs who over-reach, or they actually win... and promptly start the back-stabbing bonanzo, causing all their successes to be undone.

And per Veitch, this was input Lucas himself gave. And that checks out, because when they were planning NJO later on, they first wanted the extra-galactic invaders to be a hidden Sith Empire (indeed, the stuff in SW:TOR might be cribbed from that!) but Lucas again vetoed that right away. Literally outlining that Sith Empires can't last long term, ever-- and that a few decades is the best they could possibly get. So in Lucas's conception (which he pretty successfully enforced throught the EU's run), Sith Empires never last long, so Palpatine definitely is the most successful. Because he is the only one who ever managed to conquer the whole known galaxy (and hold it for a quarter-century, at that).


...All of which means that Vitiate is a problem. He's basically "Sithy Sue". He can do what no Sith was supposed to do. He can be a Sith, but somehow the consequences of the Sith doctrine just don't catch up to him. This is in part because he's a game character, and they have different needs for game stories (especially for a game like SW:TOR), plus they were less inclined to really stick to established lore (see also the light-versus-dark alignment spectrum in-game from KotOR onward, which is a main reason for the stupid conception of "grey jedi").

I think if you asked Lucas, for the moment disregarding how he viewed the EU as a whole, he'd tell you that Vitiate is definitely non-canonical. The character goes against the fundamental realities of Sith ideology and the inevitable failures thereof.

 

[Zachowon]

I mean, Vitates empire wasn't uncontested

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

In all honesty, I don't give a shit what Lucas thinks anymore. My respect for him took a nosedive after he sold out to the Mouse, and completely evaporated as the consequences of that screwup started raining down on all of us.

Lucas can pontificate all he wants on what's canon or not, I don't give a damn. As far as I'm concerned, the Old Sith Empire lasted for thousands of years between the Hundred Year Darkness to a brief interruption with the Great Hyperspace War, and lasted for another thousand years and more after being reconstituted by Darth Vitiate, and nothing Lucas says or does will convince me otherwise.

 

[Earl]

My respect for him took a nosedive after he sold out to the Mouse, and completely evaporated as the consequences of that screwup started raining down on all of us.

Meh. Our enjoyment in fact matters less in the end compared to four billion dollars in charity. He made his decision and I completely respect it.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Meh. Our enjoyment in fact matters less in the end compared to four billion dollars in charity. He made his decision and I completely respect it.

You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that. Lucas, though...

 

[Earl]

You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that. Lucas, though...

Have you given four billion dollars to Charity?

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Have you given four billion dollars to Charity?

No, and I fail to see how that matters.

EDIT: Oh, wait. Yes, I do. So, only rich people are entitled to have opinions, now?

 

[Earl]

No, and I fail to see how that matters.

EDIT: Oh, wait. Yes, I do. So, only rich people are entitled to have opinions, now?

Simply put, when given the choice between disappointing you and millions of others in a way which won’t affect them materially in anyway and helping to provide education to millions of others in some shape or form, I think the moral choice is very clear.

 

[Skallagrim]

I mean, Vitates empire wasn't uncontested

It lasted for over 1300 years, though. And he has a double-secret additional empire, too! My point is that this doesn't fit well with the way the Sith were handled in... well, literally every other SW work. It's not even his success that's the issue, it's the fact that he supposedly made it last for that long. The whole point of the Sith is that they're totally self-destructive. They consistently choose the satisfaction of their own desires over moderation and... limits.

(An effect that seems to get worse when they gain power. Sith have been shown to be able to bide their time and scheme while trying to seize power, but once they have power, it goes to their heads in really bad way.)

In all honesty, I don't give a shit what Lucas thinks anymore. My respect for him took a nosedive after he sold out to the Mouse, and completely evaporated as the consequences of that screwup started raining down on all of us.

Lucas can pontificate all he wants on what's canon or not, I don't give a damn. As far as I'm concerned, the Old Sith Empire lasted for thousands of years between the Hundred Year Darkness to a brief interruption with the Great Hyperspace War, and lasted for another thousand years and more after being reconstituted by Darth Vitiate, and nothing Lucas says or does will convince me otherwise.

Ultimately, it's not so much about what Lucas personally thinks, but rather about the fundamental nature of the Sith. He had that down pat, and it was followed throughout the EU. Vitatenebreaorion of the Many Names is the big exception. So you an accept that at face value and say "sure, that happened, he's just that special", but that's why I said he's a problem from a Doylist perspective. There's a world-building inconsistency at play.

Regardless, we're all free to have our own interpretation of canon. I just ignore the whole Denningverse, after all...

(But as far as Lucas "selling out" is concerned: I do think he did that with the best intentions, and he's obviously regretted it since. Lucas really liked Disney -- as it once was -- because he saw it as a studio that typically told positive, optimistic stories. He failed to grasp that they Disney of yesteryear no longer existed by the time he sold his company to them...)