Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

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Battlegrinder said:
I don't know if it's good or bad, I don't like the Expanse. But it would not be star trek, much like star wars without the jedi is not star wars.

That is not to say there always must be some weirdo with a robe and laser sword in every bit of SW media, but any media that doesn't have some robed weirdo running around in it is always going to be a sideshow.



Oh, not this again. Kirk stole a cloaking device from the Romulans, Picard acted like the Prime Directive was a divine command that sometimes you should let a species be wiped out, and Janway.....oh, boy. At least "In The Pale Moonlight" framed Sisko's actions as morally dubious, which wasn't always the case when a captain did something immoral. Characters failing, including morally, has always been part of Star Trek.



Ok, so given this question here:


Does that mean you are arguing that yes, if not for the Force Revan would never have turned on the republic?
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I have no idea if Revan would have turned if the Force wasn't a factor, because that period of the Old Republic was a fucking mess of conflicts that fed into and off each other.

But not having to worry about mystical bullshit or it's influence probably would have meant far fewer conflicts in the SW galaxy period. It wouldn't remove all conflict, but probably would not result in things like the Cron Cluster blowing up or the the mass shadow device on Malachor being built.

Literally the only 'benign' Force sensitives were those weird monks Cardas hung with in the Hand of Thrawn duology, maybe the Fallanasi, and the Chiss navigators/skywalkers.
 
Bacle said:
I have no idea if Revan would have turned if the Force wasn't a factor, because that period of the Old Republic was a fucking mess of conflicts that fed into and off each other.

But not having to worry about mystical bullshit or it's influence probably would have meant far fewer conflicts in the SW galaxy period. It wouldn't remove all conflict, but probably would not result in things like the Cron Cluster blowing up or the the mass shadow device on Malachor being built.
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It's not really plausible to argue that in an unstable, conflict driven era, that getting rid of a well known and generally respected group of devoted peacekeepers would make the situation less prone to wars and conflict, rather than more.

And it is particularly implausible to claim that if not for the force, the galaxy would have fewer superweapons lying about. This is Star Wars, it has so many superweapons the wiki has to have a special category just keep track of them, with an accompanying article to help narrow down the definition of "superweapon" because the setting is so packed with absurdly powerful weapons you need make the dividing line between a simple obscenely destructive weapon and an actual superweapon clear.
 
Battlegrinder said:
It's not really plausible to argue that in an unstable, conflict driven era, that getting rid of a well known and generally respected group of devoted peacekeepers would make the situation less prone to wars and conflict, rather than more.

And it is particularly implausible to claim that if not for the force, the galaxy would have fewer superweapons lying about. This is Star Wars, it has so many superweapons the wiki has to have a special category just keep track of them, with an accompanying article to help narrow down the definition of "superweapon" because the setting is so packed with absurdly powerful weapons you need make the dividing line between a simple obscenely destructive weapon and an actual superweapon clear.
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It was a Sith ritual that caused the Cron Cluster to blow, not any superweapon.
 
Bacle said:
It was a Sith ritual that caused the Cron Cluster to blow, not any superweapon.
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I feel like you're intentionally missing the point here. Star Wars is going to have an immense of destruction and death regardless of who is responsible for it or how they do it, because it's Star Wars.

Also, perhaps find a better source for your claim that the Force is some uniquely destructive element then an in-universe epic poem that has explicitly not been verified as being accurate. That is akin to arguing that sodomy laws must be enforced, or else areas that have too much sodomy going on risk being destroyed by divine retribution.
 
Battlegrinder said:
I feel like you're intentionally missing the point here. Star Wars is going to have an immense of destruction and death regardless of who is responsible for it or how they do it, because it's Star Wars.

Also, perhaps find a better source for your claim that the Force is some uniquely destructive element then an in-universe epic poem that has explicitly not been verified as being accurate. That is akin to arguing that sodomy laws must be enforced, or else areas that have too much sodomy going on risk being destroyed by divine retribution.
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I'm not missing the point, I'm just not interested in pretending that most of the conflicts in Star Wars weren't caused or escalated by Force Users if one stripe or another.

Destruction and death would still happen in Star Wars without Jedi and Sith around, but the scale and frequency of said conflicts would likely be far lower.
 
Bacle said:
I'm not missing the point, I'm just not interested in pretending that most of the conflicts in Star Wars weren't caused or escalated by Force Users if one stripe or another.

Destruction and death would still happen in Star Wars without Jedi and Sith around, but the scale and frequency of said conflicts would likely be far lower.
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You're still not getting it. Force users are constantly involved in conflicts in SW because it's star wars, and they're a popular part of the setting that the franchise owners want to visibly involved. You might as well argue that there's something about white body armor, vaguely nazi-esque uniforms, triangular starships, and warrior cultures with T shaped visors that inevitably leads to conflict, because all those things keep showing up in star wars conflicts.

You're doing the Chris Avellone thing where you go "oh, look, there's some weird contrivances in the setting because of the external factors that influence how it's written, wouldn't it be so clever and post modern if I pointed that out and acted like they're some natural force in the setting?"......No. No, it wouldn't be, it's dumb and damages the setting as a whole. This whole "Reverse Ceci n'est pas une pipe" routine is annoying and silly, because Star Wars was never meant to be viewed in the light you're trying to cast it in or subjected to the sort of analysis you seem to think is warranted.

You're being the guy who sits down at a D&D game and immediately starts arguing that the feudal power structure disadvantages the lowest rungs of society and should be restructured for greater equality, in a module that was written with the moral complexity of "Orc Raiders Bad, Duke Niceguy and his brave townspeople Good". Don't be that guy.
 
The Star Wars galaxy exists because the Force is there. Whatever that is.

Even if it's not Jedi and Sith, the Force connects to the inhabitants of Star Wars and communicates with them. You could even have someone interpret that as their deity. It's still going to affect what goes on.

Take that for what it's worth. Even Rogue One dealt with the Force, and I'm not talking about Vader.
 
Battlegrinder said:
You're still not getting it. Force users are constantly involved in conflicts in SW because it's star wars, and they're a popular part of the setting that the franchise owners want to visibly involved. You might as well argue that there's something about white body armor, vaguely nazi-esque uniforms, triangular starships, and warrior cultures with T shaped visors that inevitably leads to conflict, because all those things keep showing up in star wars conflicts.

You're doing the Chris Avellone thing where you go "oh, look, there's some weird contrivances in the setting because of the external factors that influence how it's written, wouldn't it be so clever and post modern if I pointed that out and acted like they're some natural force in the setting?"......No. No, it wouldn't be, it's dumb and damages the setting as a whole. This whole "Reverse Ceci n'est pas une pipe" routine is annoying and silly, because Star Wars was never meant to be viewed in the light you're trying to cast it in or subjected to the sort of analysis you seem to think is warranted.

You're being the guy who sits down at a D&D game and immediately starts arguing that the feudal power structure disadvantages the lowest rungs of society and should be restructured for greater equality, in a module that was written with the moral complexity of "Orc Raiders Bad, Duke Niceguy and his brave townspeople Good". Don't be that guy.
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I'm just not interested in pretending that the Force and Force users are not a net negative to the average person in the Star Wars galaxy.

Also, I don't play D&D partly because I do find the fantasy genre to be...dull and desperately in need of good 'Finishing the Fight' sci-fi asskickings.

I'll take Expanse-style or SG-1-style realism and groundedness over mythical/mystical bullshit any day.
 
The Whispering Monk said:
I was OK with this statement until I got to SG-1 'realism and groundedness'. While SG1 tries very hard to ground in science they went so far off the rails that it ventured into Force territory a time or six.
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That was really only Oma and Daniel; the rest of the Ascended Alterians would have made Picard blush at how non-interventionist and generally indifferent to the suffering of 'lesser' beings they were.

And the Ascended Alterians got that way via science, at the end of the day, not via midichlorians or Celestial fuckery like in SW and how the Force seemed to be...created/manipulated by higher beings (Mortis God's, Abeloth, Waru to a degree, etc.).
 
SG1 is a setting where you can become a glowing white space ghost if you think about it hard enough, it is in no way grounded and especially not when compared to a setting that lets you become a glowing blue space ghost if you think about it hard enough and also are morally righteous enough.

There is more to being grounded sci-fi than "still uses bullets".
 
Bacle said:
I'm just not interested in pretending that the Force and Force users are not a net negative to the average person in the Star Wars galaxy.

Also, I don't play D&D partly because I do find the fantasy genre to be...dull and desperately in need of a good 'Finishing the Fight' sci-fi asskicking.

I'll take Expanse-style or SG-1-style realism and groundedness over mythical/mystical bullshit any day.
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1-The force is as much a part of Star Wars as much as anything else. Removing that and what you have isn't Star Wars. It's a set of movies set in space with magic powers. While you can have movies set in Star Wars without the Jedi or Sith the force can't be removed. Now while or not the force is a net gain or a net negative is up to the given person but without the force you don't have Star Wars.

2-I have seen seem D&D games and I think a good set of players and a good story could make any game enjoyable. The power behind that game is the stories one can tell while playing it.

3-I'm on season 5 of SG-1 and realism and groundedness aren't words I would use for that show. Sure it is more grounded in how everything works but it's also a show about a ring gate sending people to other planets/moons in seconds.
 
The Whispering Monk said:
The Star Wars galaxy exists because the Force is there. Whatever that is.

Even if it's not Jedi and Sith, the Force connects to the inhabitants of Star Wars and communicates with them. You could even have someone interpret that as their deity. It's still going to affect what goes on.

Take that for what it's worth. Even Rogue One dealt with the Force, and I'm not talking about Vader.
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Would emphasize this.

Star Wars stories are, certainly, free to roam around in the Outer Rim tracking bounty hunters aping the old spaghetti westerns, or follow outright criminal syndicates and/or those struggling against them, or foray into political shenanigans or espionage actions or basically anything else...But the whole universe is fundamentally based around The Force and the conflict between good and evil, so even in the context of those stories it serves purpose to tie them into that theme.

No explicit acknowledgement of who is a light side person/group and who is a dark side one is completely necessary--and better stories can come precisely from how loosely those labels can be applies and stretched (and how people can move from one to another). Nor do the characters involved have to buy into it. Hell, sometimes it's better for the story/character if they don't--Han's dismissal of hokey religions and ancient weapons in favor of 'a good blaster at your side' says things about the character itself. But he's still a character whose actions (at least...from the latter part of IV) put him firmly on the side of the light side of The Force in Star Wars...Even if prior to that point he's much more questionable to outright being serving/promoting the dark by serving the Empire then running drugs (even if with shades of goodness evidenced by his opposition to wookie-slavery being the thing that ejected him from his service to the Empire/Corellia...Or the Disneyified version, I suppose, that is similar but less cool).

Jedi and Sith and The Force can only be perceived as the big causes of destruction everyone in-universe would be better off without if one ignores the mundane but billions-times multiplied in number versions of that destruction that is carried out by those weaker in The Force who still serve the same fundamental conflict between good and evil in the setting and oppose and come into conflict with one another (Imperial Stormtroopers, Rebel commandos, Bothan spies, bounty hunters, etc.)--and their capacity to do the same evil/good (The Death Star was not a magical weapon harnessed by Sith powers, but a technological one).
 
Bacle said:
I'm just not interested in pretending that the Force and Force users are not a net negative to the average person in the Star Wars galaxy.

Also, I don't play D&D partly because I do find the fantasy genre to be...dull and desperately in need of good 'Finishing the Fight' sci-fi asskickings.

I'll take Expanse-style or SG-1-style realism and groundedness over mythical/mystical bullshit any day.
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Then fuck off from Star Wars???

You know what I like, Dungeons and Dragons... except all that shit about the slavery and evil monsters and civilizations. I want Beholders and Orcs to culturally be just as good or bad as an Aasimar or Mountain Dwarf. I want gritty Black Paladins! And Illithids to go full science fiction with X-Ray laser cannons and Spacejammer with Newtonian Physics and actual vacuum of space mechanics!

If you don't like the Space Fantasy bullshit then avoid it. I don't want to see Jedi and Sith in The Expanse either. Hence I'm also not going to go into that Fandom and make stupid suggestions for more laser sword duels and pseudo-mythical "Bullshit." :p

Like I thought the suggestions were getting bad enough with the sitcom and dramedy ideas but now it's like... Oh my ideas for Star Wars actually come from a basis of having nothing but contempt for the core aspects of the franchise.

Are you like angling to be the next big Kurtzmann or Rian Johnson or something? :LOL:
 
In the spirit of the Holidays, here's something cool...

Star Wars: Imperial March x Carol of The Bells | EPIC VERSION (Epic Christmas Music)




....And here's something horrifying:

Star Wars’ infamous Holiday Special, explained

 
Husky_Khan said:
Then fuck off from Star Wars???

You know what I like, Dungeons and Dragons... except all that shit about the slavery and evil monsters and civilizations. I want Beholders and Orcs to culturally be just as good or bad as an Aasimar or Mountain Dwarf. I want gritty Black Paladins! And Illithids to go full science fiction with X-Ray laser cannons and Spacejammer with Newtonian Physics and actual vacuum of space mechanics!

If you don't like the Space Fantasy bullshit then avoid it. I don't want to see Jedi and Sith in The Expanse either. Hence I'm also not going to go into that Fandom and make stupid suggestions for more laser sword duels and pseudo-mythical "Bullshit." :p

Like I thought the suggestions were getting bad enough with the sitcom and dramedy ideas but now it's like... Oh my ideas for Star Wars actually come from a basis of having nothing but contempt for the core aspects of the franchise.

Are you like angling to be the next big Kurtzmann or Rian Johnson or something? :LOL:
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Closer to want more Zahn and Stackpole type type writing in Star Wars, with more focus on how real warfare is fought and how mundanes can counter the mystical BS (ysalamiri say hello).

I'd even settle for more OCP shit like the Vong fucking up Force users because they are Force transparent.

I just generally have a poor view of mystical bullshit and love seeing mundanes cut the metaphorical feet out from under wizards/shamans/Force Users, or seeing the same realize how bad thier shit can be for the general population (Kreia).
 
Urabrask Revealed said:
Like it or not, when the subject of a mythos or religion is a real thing that can do stuff then people will interact with it. Kreia was proven wrong by the end of the game.
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And yet she was proven right in the long run.

The Force created Anakin to bring balance to it, and he did that by removing the vast majority of active Force users in the galaxy by the end of his life.

The Force users which do not start or participate in mass conflicts with frightening regularity (Fallanasi, Chiss navigators, those monks Cardas hid with, the Grey Jedi who fled to Zenoma Sekot, etc) all seem to have grasped how harmful large masses of Force users could be to the galaxy at large, and how easily corrupted said users could be due to that.
 
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