Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[S'task]

This is, I know, an unpopular opinion, but without the Jedi and Sith, Star Wars isn't Star Wars.

One thing most folks don't realize is that Star Wars is, at it's core, a very spiritual setting with a huge focus on morality and faith. When you strip Star Wars of those aspects by stripping the Jedi and Sith from the setting what you have left is a half baked space western/space opera that is highly derivative of earlier works and with little to nothing unique about it.

The Force and the related factions are core aspects OF Star Wars that is essential to the heart of the setting. There's a reason why, when given carte blanc to tell random stories in Star Wars, that the majority of the shorts in Visions dealt with Jedi and the Force in some way. There's a reason why the Mandalorian did have those aspects over just being a bounty of the week show, and a reason why Luke's appearance in the Season 2 finale is one of the most memorable and incredible pieces of Star Wars media released in the last decade.

Star Wars is not, despite many people's claims, Science Fiction. Star Wars is, in fact, Fantasy, that happens to be set in Space with Spaceships and Aliens. Why do I say this, Star War's core concept is not "What If?", rather, it is "A Long Time Ago..." and it is highly focused on the struggle of Good and Evil and the Hero's Journey, aspects that are more focused on myth and fantasy, than Science Fiction. Most people joke about Star Wars being about "Space Wizard-Knights", but it fundamentally IS.

The spiritual aspect of Star Wars is essential to that, and to strip it and throw it aside basically is throwing away the heart of Star Wars.

 

[Bacle]

This is, I know, an unpopular opinion, but without the Jedi and Sith, Star Wars isn't Star Wars.

One thing most folks don't realize is that Star Wars is, at it's core, a very spiritual setting with a huge focus on morality and faith. When you strip Star Wars of those aspects by stripping the Jedi and Sith from the setting what you have left is a half baked space western/space opera that is highly derivative of earlier works and with little to nothing unique about it.

The Force and the related factions are core aspects OF Star Wars that is essential to the heart of the setting. There's a reason why, when given carte blanc to tell random stories in Star Wars, that the majority of the shorts in Visions dealt with Jedi and the Force in some way. There's a reason why the Mandalorian did have those aspects over just being a bounty of the week show, and a reason why Luke's appearance in the Season 2 finale is one of the most memorable and incredible pieces of Star Wars media released in the last decade.

Star Wars is not, despite many people's claims, Science Fiction. Star Wars is, in fact, Fantasy, that happens to be set in Space with Spaceships and Aliens. Why do I say this, Star War's core concept is not "What If?", rather, it is "A Long Time Ago..." and it is highly focused on the struggle of Good and Evil and the Hero's Journey, aspects that are more focused on myth and fantasy, than Science Fiction. Most people joke about Star Wars being about "Space Wizard-Knights", but it fundamentally IS.

The spiritual aspect of Star Wars is essential to that, and to strip it and throw it aside basically is throwing away the heart of Star Wars.

No, it's just giving it a heart transplant, one badly needed after Ruin Johnson and KK got thier mits on it.

The idea that the Force and mysticism must be the core of Star Wars is a rather tired trope that was annoying even in Legends.

That same attitude is also part of why, in-universe, people were not huge fans of Force weilders even before the Clone Wars. Everytime Jedi and Sith went at it, the normal people of the galaxy suffered, sometimes for thousands of years.

Kreia was on the right track.

 

[Bigking321]

The spiritual aspect of Star Wars is essential to that, and to strip it and throw it aside basically is throwing away the heart of Star Wars.

I completely disagree.

The jedi, Sith, and the force are part of star wars, sure. But you don't have to have them involved in the stories.

My favorite stat wars things, the thrawn trilogy and the x-wing series, are fundamentally military sci-fi stories with a bit of the force thrown in, more so in thrawn with Luke and Maras stuff.

Stat wars doesn't have to mention the force at all. There are plenty of things to deal with in setting that have nothing to do with it. Military stuff, politics, smugglers, bounty hunters, crime, regular life, all kinds of stuff.

Kreia was on the right track.

Let's not go to crazy in the other direction.

 

[Bacle]

I completely disagree.

The jedi, Sith, and the force are part of star wars, sure. But you don't have to have them involved in the stories.

My favorite stat wars things, the thrawn trilogy and the x-wing series, are fundamentally military sci-fi stories with a bit of the force thrown in, more so in thrawn with Luke and Maras stuff.

Stat wars doesn't have to mention the force at all. There are plenty of things to deal with in setting that have nothing to do with it. Military stuff, politics, smugglers, bounty hunters, crime, regular life, all kinds of stuff.



Let's not go to crazy in the other direction.

It's not crazy; she just understood the Force and Force users were not positive forces in the galaxy at large, no matter how high minded any Jedi was.

 

[Battlegrinder]

My favorite stat wars things, the thrawn trilogy and the x-wing series, are fundamentally military sci-fi stories with a bit of the force thrown in, more so in thrawn with Luke and Maras stuff.

Ok, and without the Force, what sets X-Wing apart from a load of other "Top Gun IN SPACE" series of similar quality?

That same attitude is also part of why, in-universe, people were not huge fans of Force weilders even before the Clone Wars.

That same attitude was why people in KOTOR II were not fans of the Jedi, but KOTOR II is a massive outlier in that regard.

 

[Bacle]

That same attitude was why people in KOTOR II were not fans of the Jedi, but KOTOR II is a massive outlier in that regard.

The Clone Wars Ahsoka Trial arc and the Season 7 Ahsoka's Walkabout arc both had the same sentiment coming from civies, and it's shown up in other media too (Rogue Planet and the Grey Jedi, Vergere to a degree in the NJO, the way the Chiss handle thier Force users, Mando's on the whole, B'phass system from the Thrawn trilogy, etc.).

There are plenty of places in both Legends and Disney canon where normal, mundane people of the galaxy, and even some Force users, have started to view Force users and the Force itself as dangers to the common folk of the galaxy.

 

[SpaceOrbis]

I don't think "the story" needs to be about the Force and the Jedi and the Sith. Lucas' 6 films did a pretty good job with that material, and then you had decades of spinoffs that subverted it and thoroughly beat it into a dead horse.

Stuff like the Mandalorian is conceptually good: explores a different facet of the setting, bounty hunting (alas the show did not continue doing that and once again devolved into retreading the same old ground with jedis and imperials).

I have a few episodes and by that I mean I have seen an episode and a part of another. But I have seen some cool stuff so I may have to try to set aside some time to watching more of it. Does it have a lot of episodes?
~~~

I completely disagree.

The Jedi, Sith, and the force are part of star wars, sure. But you don't have to have them involved in the stories.

My favorite star wars things, the thrawn trilogy, and the x-wing series are fundamentally military sci-fi stories with a bit of the force thrown in, more so in thrawn with Luke and Maras stuff.

Star wars doesn't have to mention the force at all. There are plenty of things to deal with in setting that have nothing to do with it. Military stuff, politics, smugglers, bounty hunters, crime, regular life, all kinds of stuff.

Let's not go to crazy in the other direction.

Without good and evil, where is your story? How does one tell a proper story without a clear good and bad group? The Jedi and Sith are the warriors for both sides and while it is true you don't need them in your story proper you do need the concept of the Jedi in the Sith in your movie/story to function in Star Wars. Otherwise what you have is a lot of shit taken from older works without very little of anything of its own.

 

[DarthOne]

I have a few episodes and by that I mean I have seen an episode and a part of another. But I have seen some cool stuff so I may have to try to set aside some time to watching more of it. Does it have a lot of episodes?
~~~


Without good and evil, where is your story? How does one tell a proper story without a clear good and bad group? The Jedi and Sith are the warriors for both sides and while it is true you don't need them in your story proper you do need the concept of the Jedi in the Sith in your movie/story to function in Star Wars. Otherwise what you have is a lot of shit taken from older works without very little of anything of its own.

One can have good and evil factions in SW without involving the Jedi and sith.

 

[Bacle]

I have a few episodes and by that I mean I have seen an episode and a part of another. But I have seen some cool stuff so I may have to try to set aside some time to watching more of it. Does it have a lot of episodes?
~~~


Without good and evil, where is your story? How does one tell a proper story without a clear good and bad group? The Jedi and Sith are the warriors for both sides and while it is true you don't need them in your story proper you do need the concept of the Jedi in the Sith in your movie/story to function in Star Wars. Otherwise what you have is a lot of shit taken from older works without very little of anything of its own.

Why must every story be about a fight between good and evil?

Why not stories about the slice of life of normal people, of the little people just trying to get by while giants fight, of how the world is more complex than just 'good guys' and 'bad guys'.

 

[SpaceOrbis]

Why must every story be about a fight between good and evil?

Why not stories about the slice of life of normal people, of the little people just trying to get by while giants fight, of how the world is more complex than just 'good guys' and 'bad guys'.

Easy because without good or bad you have no story. Who do you side with if the story has no good or bad people. You need something to tell a story be it a lone cop trying to stop the killings of a madman or a farmboy joining a fight that is far greater than he is.

You don't need the Jedi or the Sith par say. But you do need the idea of them. You need at least the concept of a good guy and a bad guy a good faction and an evil faction. Without this, no story can be made.

 

[Bacle]

Easy because without good or bad you have no story. Who do you side with if the story has no good or bad people. You need something to tell a story be it a lone cop trying to stop the killings of a madman or a farmboy joining a fight that is far greater than he is.

You don't need the Jedi or the Sith par say. But you do need the idea of them.

No, no you don't, and that's a rather childish view of story telling.

Stories can be about just the daily struggles of life, or about quests where the perils of nature are the challenges to be overcome, or of shared discovery of some new idea or item. Or they can be comedies of errors, or just comedies of life's funny little moments.

 

[SpaceOrbis]

No, no you don't, and that's a rather childish view of storytelling.

Stories can be about just the daily struggles of life, or about quests where the perils of nature are the challenges to be overcome, or of shared discovery of some new idea or item. Or they can be comedies of errors, or just comedies of life's funny little moments.

I would have to disagree. A good and proper story has a good side and a bad. Take Goku and Vegeta from Dragon Ball. How good would the show be if they never battled each other? How fun would that show be if nobody ever did anything evil and force our heroes to fight them off?

Without something to fight for where is any story to be found?

 

[The Whispering Monk]

@SpaceOrbis

I don't think that 'fighting' is necessary to a story. However, there must be strife. Something must struggle against the protagonist achieving their goals.

 

[Husky_Khan]

When I think Star Wars I think slice of life dramedies and Sitcoms.

Except I don't.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Coming soon:

The R2 Unit is a Part-Timer

 

[Battlegrinder]

The Clone Wars Ahsoka Trial arc and the Season 7 Ahsoka's Walkabout arc both had the same sentiment coming from civies, and it's shown up in other media too (Rogue Planet and the Grey Jedi, Vergere to a degree in the NJO, the way the Chiss handle thier Force users, Mando's on the whole, B'phass system from the Thrawn trilogy, etc.).

There are plenty of places in both Legends and Disney canon where normal, mundane people of the galaxy, and even some Force users, have started to view Force users and the Force itself as dangers to the common folk of the galaxy.

Yes, but those people are still outliers, or not actually opposed to force users on the grounds you list. Mandos don't really care about the whole cycle of conflict that definitely exists and isn't just a fiction Keria invented. They have a grudge against the Jedi specifically because the Jedi keep curb stomping them.

The overwhelming majority of people, as shown in every film and other installment, do not buy into Keria's BS and support the Jedi. I can't even think of anyone in the films that ascribes to the worldview you support.



I would also note that "is there a Force drive cycle of conflict in the setting" is a very different question then the original point, which was that Force and the moral concepts linked to it is a central part of what Star Wars is. Star Trek is the same way, with it's sense of optimism and idealism being core parts of what makes something Star Trek. Take those away, as they have done in Picard or STD, and you don't have star trek anymore, you have The Expanse With Ray Guns.



Also, said force driven cycle manifestly does not exist. The root cause of any Jedi vs Sith conflict is the moral character of the Sith side. As KOTOR itself shows, Revan had clearly started sliding toward the "only I can bring order and security to this galaxy, no one else is willing to make the tough choices that have to be made here" mindset well before the war started, and plenty of other people were willing to follow him without having some sort of force powered dark side feedback loop pushing them farther down the slope. If Revan wasn't a Jedi, and was instead just some equally charismatic and skilled general with the same mindset, do you think that he would have never turned against the Republic?

 

[Bacle]

Take those away, as they have done in Picard or STD, and you don't have star trek anymore, you have The Expanse With Ray Guns.

You make 'The Expanse with ray guns' sound like a bad thing.

Also, DS9 gutted the idealism and optimism from Trek long ago, and showed how ugly and hollow the Federations ideals are when the chips are down. The Maquis existed for a reason and Sisko brought the Romulans into the war on a massive lie.

No, Kreia was on the right track, it's just not a track that sells well in Sat morning cartoons or to the masses of Jedi/Sith fans.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Also, DS9 gutted the idealism and optimism from Trek long ago, and showed how ugly and hollow the Federations ideals are when the chips are down. The Maquis existed for a reason and Sisko brought the Romulans into the war on a massive lie.

Anytime the chips are down, the principles of the Federation mean nothing.

 

[Bacle]

Anytime the chips are down, the principles of the Federation mean nothing.

Very true; frankly the Federation from Trek is a farce of a gov that plays at being utopia but is only slightly better than its neighbors.

I'd trust Klingon honor or Romulans self-interest before I trusted Federation ideals.

Same sort of thing goes for why the SW galaxy would be better of if there was never another Force user born to it.

 

[Battlegrinder]

You make 'The Expanse with ray guns' sound like a bad thing.

I don't know if it's good or bad, I don't like the Expanse. But it would not be star trek, much like star wars without the jedi is not star wars.

That is not to say there always must be some weirdo with a robe and laser sword in every bit of SW media, but any media that doesn't have some robed weirdo running around in it is always going to be a sideshow.

Also, DS9 gutted the idealism and optimism from Trek long ago, and showed how ugly and hollow the Federations ideals are when the chips are down. The Maquis existed for a reason and Sisko brought the Romulans into the war on a massive lie.

Oh, not this again. Kirk stole a cloaking device from the Romulans, Picard acted like the Prime Directive was a divine command that sometimes you should let a species be wiped out, and Janway.....oh, boy. At least "In The Pale Moonlight" framed Sisko's actions as morally dubious, which wasn't always the case when a captain did something immoral. Characters failing, including morally, has always been part of Star Trek.

No, Kreia was on the right track, it's just not a track that sells well in Sat morning cartoons or to the masses of Jedi/Sith fans.

Ok, so given this question here:

As KOTOR itself shows, Revan had clearly started sliding toward the "only I can bring order and security to this galaxy, no one else is willing to make the tough choices that have to be made here" mindset well before the war started, and plenty of other people were willing to follow him without having some sort of force powered dark side feedback loop pushing them farther down the slope. If Revan wasn't a Jedi, and was instead just some equally charismatic and skilled general with the same mindset, do you think that he would have never turned against the Republic?

Does that mean you are arguing that yes, if not for the Force Revan would never have turned on the republic?