Russian Invasion of Ukraine 2022

[Abhorsen]

Even if Nuland is choosing the cabinet?

Also, there is a difference between democracy and mob rule, a coup is mob rule, besides, nothing guarantees the mob is 51% of the whole population.
Then again, democracy in its purest form is two wolves and a sheep deciding what is for lunch.

Think you have an extra begin quote.

As for democracy and mob rule, yes there is a difference. But 1) Ukraine never had a democracy (and now maybe has a flawed one at best) and 2) I'm an Anarcho-Capitalist at heart only contained by the reality that it doesn't work cause warlords, so I'm fine with even a minority coup breaking away on their own. Freedom to leave is definitely a thing.



So I was probably too hasty in thinking this would be Russian roll of Ukraine. The longer this takes, the worse it is going to be for them as Ukraine takes deliveries of weapons. This is gonna be a total clusterfuck for Russia (unless they win soon, they look incompetent).

Basically, Russia sacrificed all of it's Euro softpower in this move, and that was really good for a flagging NATO. This could also cause more hostility toward China, as Europe starts realizing it needs to follow the US more.

 

[King Arts]

You do realize that you described two of the most evil regimes of all time, right?

Also, I am pretty sure the soviets gave their conscripts at least some training, or are you using "Enemy at the Gates" as your source material?

Again if an enemy is coming to rape murder and enslaved you. Throw everything and the kitchen sink at them. Russians historically have not been gentle when fighting.

 

[SchrodingersWehraboo]

Whoops, looks like the Chechen defeat was Ukrainian fanfiction.

 

[Abhorsen]

I'd also expect a far amount of disinfo from both sides.

Like the 13 soldiers thing was really smart. It lasted long enough to hype morale when it was most desperately needed, and it being debunked isn't a huge morale killer, as people in Ukraine have seen actual fighting since then.

So don't whine about the disinfo or laugh about it. It's really smart propaganda coming from both sides that needs to be respected.

 

[Zachowon]

Whoops, looks like the Chechen defeat was Ukrainian fanfiction.

We have no clue either way.
Unless they have the conversation recorded. We won't know

 

[Zachowon]

 

[King Arts]

I'd also expect a far amount of disinfo from both sides.

Like the 13 soldiers thing was really smart. It lasted long enough to hype morale when it was most desperately needed, and it being debunked isn't a huge morale killer, as people in Ukraine have seen actual fighting since then.

So don't whine about the disinfo or laugh about it. It's really smart propaganda coming from both sides that needs to be respected.

We’ll lying shouldn’t be respected we understand why it’s happening but it’s annoying to find out what’s happening.

 

[Husky_Khan]

We’ll lying shouldn’t be respected we understand why it’s happening but it’s annoying to find out what’s happening.

If it was lying as opposed to working off of the wrong information or someone elses disinformation.

 

[Abhorsen]

We’ll lying shouldn’t be respected we understand why it’s happening but it’s annoying to find out what’s happening.

No, lying is part and parcel of warfare. D-Day for example only worked because of a massive, massive scheme of coordinated lies far more impressive than these.

Quite bluntly, us getting info is the least important part of what is happening. What matters is the outcome of the people trying to fight.

 

[Terthna]

You have personal bias and are simply projecting that onto me. Again, if Putin hadn't felt the need to start shit, I would at worst, feel apathy toward Russia. But the fact they are invading another country with the intent to conquer it, basically as part of a tantrum for not letting themselves be a puppet (as near as I can tell) is what give me this so-called "bias." Where the hell does this even come from with you? You're responding to me stating that I am disinclined to believe accusations of being a Nazi, yet for you this somehow translates into an anti-Russia bias? Dafaq is wrong with you? View attachment 1190

Except that's not true; Putin didn't start this. America and Europe did in trying to push NATO right up to his border, and backing yet another regime change; this time in Ukraine. Your bias is so strong, you don't even recognize it as bias; the same as anyone who suffers from Trump Derangement Syndrome. Except in this case, it's Putin Derangement Syndrome; and quite frankly? Considering how often you've mocked and derided the regressive left's TDS (and rightfully so, I'll point out; to get ahead of any other attempts to dismiss what I have to say by accusing me of being one of them), I'm rather disappointed in the rank hypocrisy you're displaying here.

 

[Chiron]

No, lying is part and parcel of warfare. D-Day for example only worked because of a massive, massive scheme of coordinated lies far more impressive than these.

Quite bluntly, us getting info is the least important part of what is happening. What matters is the outcome of the people trying to fight.

The Fortitude Deception failed epically.

The Germans knew where the Allies were going to hit, moved their reserves up and it did not matter as Allied Air Supremacy backed by naval gunfire support and ample artillery meant the Germans could not mass sufficient forces to counterattack.

Also in the age of social media, lies can be seen through quickly.

Ukraine should have highlighted actual victories they had actual evidence of.

 

[Captain X]

From my perspective, y'all have just gone nuts. I don't know what it is about this situation that has made you decide to support Putin in his conquest of former Soviet satellite states, other than that at least some of you seem to have it in your head that Putin is against the WEF and the globalists in the US/Canada and Europe, and this seems to make it so that he can do no wrong. I hate to break it to you, but Russia is hardly a beacon of truth and freedom - one need only look at how they are treating their own protestors to see this, which made the Canadian situation all the more hilarious thanks to the hypocrites in charge there. So even if Putin and his government is anti-WEF, this does not translate into him being on our side, and thus your struggle to make excuses for him and his government's actions is entirely pointless.

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

That is what I said in a previous post. One can be both anti-Putin and anti-WEF at the same time. To me, this is Putin trying to impose his own hegemony on the world, as much as the Chinese are doing, and what the West is doing, or has done. We all have to come to a conclusion that the only way to actual peace is if all nations focused more on cooperation, while taking into account the geopolitical situation that is at hand.

That being said, I also have to come out and say that I am openly and viciously opposed to any form of unipolarism, because unipolarism requires unquestionable obedience to a world hegemon, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. A unipolar world will not be a place for its opponents and dissidents, so before anyone accuses me of being a Putin sympathizer, I must say that I made that mistake in 2014, and my meltdown led to me being banned from AH.com. I'm not going to make the same mistake again, except for when I have to confront anyone who supports the idea of unipolarism. Rant end.

 

[Abhorsen]

The Fortitude Deception failed epically.

The Germans knew where the Allies were going to hit, moved their reserves up and it did not matter as Allied Air Supremacy backed by naval gunfire support and ample artillery meant the Germans could not mass sufficient forces to counterattack.

Also in the age of social media, lies can be seen through quickly.

Ukraine should have highlighted actual victories they had actual evidence of.

No, it very much didn't. The Germans put armies defending both Calais and Normandy (already a win, as it split forces), and the forces defending Normandy were the more unreliable conscripts (as famously alluded to by the 'German' trying to surrender in Saving Private Ryan) with more unreliable forces. On top of this, the 15th Army was delayed by staying in Calais to fight off another landing (which never appeared, cause that was part of the deception).

Second, despite social media, it lasted for about a day, which is all it had to last for.

Third, they are doing that also. But lying is useful to victory, so they do it. I fail to see the problem here, other than some bullshit that 'oh, lying to win is bad' which is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Except that's not true; Putin didn't start this. America and Europe did in trying to push NATO right up to his border, and backing yet another regime change; this time in Ukraine. Your bias is so strong, you don't even recognize it as bias; the same as anyone who suffers from Trump Derangement Syndrome. Except in this case, it's Putin Derangement Syndrome; and quite frankly? Considering how often you've mocked and derided the regressive left's TDS (and rightfully so, I'll point out; to get ahead of any other attempts to dismiss what I have to say by accusing me of being one of them), I'm rather disappointed in the rank hypocrisy you're displaying here.

No, Putin absolutely started this. "Pushing NATO right up to his border" isn't a valid complaint. Oh, it's not something you'd want to see happen, but it also doesn't give you a right to attack someone over it. You don't get to attack your neighbor for paving right up to your land without disturbing your own. And you have even less legitimacy attacking a neighbor for considering joining an HOA.

Attacking another country is wrong. Honestly, running a puppet government that the people of that nation don't like is also wrong. You'd have to get crazy extenuating circumstances to get around that (like Vietnam's justified invasion of Cambodia levels) to overcome that default, and that default just doesn't exist.

Now if you want to abandon morality, and instead look at this as realpolitik, then as an American you should be by default against any major power, and for the US. Hence hoping that Putin loses/gets a pyrrhic victory (which is looking more and more likely the longer this lasts), as he's trying to be/is a major power. Him doing this basically shoves Europe back under the US.

 

[King Arts]

No, it very much didn't. The Germans put armies defending both Calais and Normandy (already a win, as it split forces), and the forces defending Normandy were the more unreliable conscripts (as famously alluded to by the 'German' trying to surrender in Saving Private Ryan) with more unreliable forces. On top of this, the 15th Army was delayed by staying in Calais to fight off another landing (which never appeared, cause that was part of the deception).

Second, despite social media, it lasted for about a day, which is all it had to last for.

Third, they are doing that also. But lying is useful to victory, so they do it. I fail to see the problem here, other than some bullshit that 'oh, lying to win is bad' which is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.


No, Putin absolutely started this. "Pushing NATO right up to his border" isn't a valid complaint. Oh, it's not something you'd want to see happen, but it also doesn't give you a right to attack someone over it. You don't get to attack your neighbor for paving right up to your land without disturbing your own. And you have even less legitimacy attacking a neighbor for considering joining an HOA.

Attacking another country is wrong. Honestly, running a puppet government that the people of that nation don't like is also wrong. You'd have to get crazy extenuating circumstances to get around that (like Vietnam's justified invasion of Cambodia levels) to overcome that default, and that default just doesn't exist.

Now if you want to abandon morality, and instead look at this as realpolitik, then as an American you should be by default against any major power, and for the US. Hence hoping that Putin loses/gets a pyrrhic victory (which is looking more and more likely the longer this lasts), as he's trying to be/is a major power. Him doing this basically shoves Europe back under the US.

But but that’s not fair. America would do the same thing if China and Russia tried to get Mexico to join an alliance with them. Wah wah Russia deserves a sphere of influence and empire in east Europe.

 

[Sir 1000]

Think you have an extra begin quote.

As for democracy and mob rule, yes there is a difference. But 1) Ukraine never had a democracy (and now maybe has a flawed one at best) and 2) I'm an Anarcho-Capitalist at heart only contained by the reality that it doesn't work cause warlords, so I'm fine with even a minority coup breaking away on their own. Freedom to leave is definitely a thing.



So I was probably too hasty in thinking this would be Russian roll of Ukraine. The longer this takes, the worse it is going to be for them as Ukraine takes deliveries of weapons. This is gonna be a total clusterfuck for Russia (unless they win soon, they look incompetent).

Basically, Russia sacrificed all of it's Euro softpower in this move, and that was really good for a flagging NATO. This could also cause more hostility toward China, as Europe starts realizing it needs to follow the US more.

It's only been like two or three days and the Ukrainian capital is in trouble. I'm impressed as all hell considering the size of the country. Real life isn't an rts people, though i would buy it if it was

 

[Abhorsen]

But but that’s not fair. America would do the same thing if China and Russia tried to get Mexico to join an alliance with them. Wah wah Russia deserves a sphere of influence and empire in east Europe.

And America would be wrong to do so. But also America wouldn't have to do so, as America is much better at making friends than either of the other two (especially local friends).

It's only been like two or three days and the Ukrainian capital is in trouble. I'm impressed as all hell considering the size of the country. Real life isn't an rts people, though i would buy it if it was

They got to Kyiv day one. Kyiv is really close to Belarus, so it's not actually that far away. That it's held up for a few days is frankly shocking. But that seems to be because of incompetence on Russia's part and competence on Ukraine's part (8 years of US military training helps a shitton).

 

[Terthna]

No, Putin absolutely started this. "Pushing NATO right up to his border" isn't a valid complaint. Oh, it's not something you'd want to see happen, but it also doesn't give you a right to attack someone over it. You don't get to attack your neighbor for paving right up to your land without disturbing your own. And you have even less legitimacy attacking a neighbor for considering joining an HOA.

Attacking another country is wrong. Honestly, running a puppet government that the people of that nation don't like is also wrong. You'd have to get crazy extenuating circumstances to get around that (like Vietnam's justified invasion of Cambodia levels) to overcome that default, and that default just doesn't exist.

Attacking another country is wrong, but what counts as an attack? Sending troops in is obvious, but what about supporting a violent coup to overthrow the legitimate government, in order to replace them with your own puppets; who, incidentally, treat the people of said country worse than those they overthrew did? I'd argue that's an attack as well, which means Russia isn't doing anything in Ukraine that America and Europe didn't already do themselves in 2014.

Now if you want to abandon morality, and instead look at this as realpolitik, then as an American you should be by default against any major power, and for the US. Hence hoping that Putin loses/gets a pyrrhic victory (which is looking more and more likely the longer this lasts), as he's trying to be/is a major power. Him doing this basically shoves Europe back under the US.

"My country, right or wrong" is for fools; I'm not going to back the establishment who controls my country, and considers people like me "undesirables", in a fight that they started. Because honestly? It doesn't matter who wins; both sides want to destroy America.

 

[Sir 1000]

And America would be wrong to do so. But also America wouldn't have to do so, as America is much better at making friends than either of the other two (especially local friends).

They got to Kyiv day one. Kyiv is really close to Belarus, so it's not actually that far away. That it's held up for a few days is frankly shocking. But that seems to be because of incompetence on Russia's part and competence on Ukraine's part (8 years of US military training helps a shitton).

That it was so close was all the reason more to defend it, right now it looks like the country is going to be lost in a week. That is crazy impressive compared to many modern conflicts. I know you're not a fan of Russia but let's be honest here.

 

[Bacle]

Attacking another country is wrong, but what counts as an attack? Sending troops in is obvious, but what about supporting a violent coup to overthrow the legitimate government, in order to replace them with your own puppets; who, incidentally, treat the people of said country worse than those they overthrew did? I'd argue that's an attack as well, which means Russia isn't doing anything in Ukraine that America and Europe didn't already do themselves in 2014.


"My country, right or wrong" is for fools; I'm not going to back the establishment who controls my country, and considers people like me "undesirables", in a fight that they started. Because honestly? It doesn't matter who wins; both sides want to destroy America.

I think a lot of people want to forget/ignore the way this all started with Maidan, and that the West was not innocent there.

Rallying around condemning/hating on Russia is a lot easier than admitting the rebels had legit greivences with Kiev and it's not all Putin's propaganda, even if Russia should not have invaded.