Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Politics Thread Mk. 2

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Maybe but guess what? It’s our spare change, not Ukraine’s. And as has been pointed out, the USA did not sign a binding defense agreement with Ukraine.

I don’t know about if anyone in Europe did, but even so, the citizens of a nation should have the option to change their minds.

TLDR: ‘Dear Ukraine, get your hand out of my wallet.’
The US Federal budget for 2023 was ~6.134 trillion.

Total US aid to Ukraine since the war began has been ~75 billion.

That would make US aid 1.2% of the federal budget, if it was all over that single fiscal year. It wasn't, and the war's been on for a little over two years now, so we're looking at something like 0.6% of the Federal budget.

US GDP for 2023 was ~23 trillion, a little under 4x the Fed's total budget.

This means that as a percentage for GDP, support has been less than 0.2% of GDP.

And, of course, this is before we go into 'how much of the value of aid given is in the form of military hardware already paid for?' I'm not going to bother to track down those percentages, it's enough to say that 'actual money spent' is even smaller.


You don't like even that small amount being spent to help Ukraine? Okay, fine. I wouldn't want 0.2% spend on Federal welfare programs, even if that'd be much better than what we have now, so I can understand 'it's the principle of the thing' arguments.


The majority of Americans do support the war in Ukraine, and that's how spending is supposed to work in a Republic like this. It's in our national interest for Russia to not conquer Ukraine, and they're willing to do the bleeding and dying, so most Americans are willing to send them material and funds to do so.

If foreign aid spending is your concern, there are much better targets for your ire, and targets where you might actually accomplish something productive, like shutting down money being spent for rainbow indoctrination in other countries, or aid to the terrorists in Gaza.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Maybe but guess what? It’s our spare change, not Ukraine’s. And as has been pointed out, the USA did not sign a binding defense agreement with Ukraine.
Budapest Memorandum called, dipshit.

I know you like to ignore it's existence, but it was signed by the US, UK, and Russia, in exchange for Ukraine giving up it's nukes and destroying it's long range bombers.
Maybe but guess what? It’s our spare change, not Ukraine’s. And as has been pointed out, the USA did not sign a binding defense agreement with Ukraine.

I don’t know about if anyone in Europe did, but even so, the citizens of a nation should have the option to change their minds.

TLDR: ‘Dear Ukraine, get your hand out of my wallet.’



I did say there other factors. And yes the green energy policies and those of de-industrialization are ‘retarded’.



You mean like how Russia’s was supposed to during the first months/year of the war?
Please stop with this lie of the economy being shit because we are supporting Ukraine.

The economy was struggling before Ukraine was invaded by Russia, thanks to the Wu Flu (seems you memory hole it's economic impact when you can blame it on support for Ukraine), and we cannot pay teachers, plow drivers, or postal workers in artillery shells, mine clearing equipment, or F-16s.

I also notice you complain a lot more about aid to Ukraine than the aid to Hamas that literally used US taxpayer dollars to build terror tunnels and rocket launchers that fired at our allies in Israel.

Face it, you just hate Ukraine and Zelensky because of the lies you've absorbed from Russian propaganda, and want any excuse to cut aid to Ukraine, regardless of the legitimacy of the reasoning.

And you are too proud to ever admit you got dooped by Russian psy-ops, and will instead double down on them like the moron you have proven to be time and again.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Not. Binding.
Yes it was, even if you wish it was not.

Ukraine had a bomber force and nukes before the agreement, it did not afterwords, and the US signed the deal that caused it.

Those bombers and nukes would have likely kept Russia from trying this invasion.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder


Russia election looking as legit as anything in that farce of a nation.



And here we see that now some in Russia want to dismember France for daring to stand up to them.
 

DarthOne

☦️
Yes it was, even if you wish it was not.

Ukraine had a bomber force and nukes before the agreement, it did not afterwords, and the US signed the deal that caused it.

Those bombers and nukes would have likely kept Russia from trying this invasion.

No. It doesn’t. Nor does it assure military support.


The Memorandum does not in anyway obligate any country to intervene in order to guarantee Ukraine's territorial integrity.

In other words, it is not a security guarantee, like the kind that the US has with Japan. It is also not a formal treaty which, at least under US law, would have more binding impact.



It is neither legally binding nor does it carry an enforcement mechanism. And while it provides security assurances, they do not include specific promises with regard to a potential invasion


Under the agreement the Russian Federation provided security assurances to Ukraine in the form of promising to neither attack nor threaten attack them. The other signatories (the United States, United Kingdom and France) pledged non-military support to Ukraine in exchange for its adherence to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The memorandum bundled together a set of assurances that Ukraine had already held from the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe (CSCE) Final Act, the United Nations Charter and the Non-Proliferation Treaty[2] but the Ukrainian government found it valuable to have these assurances in a Ukraine-specific document.[52][53]

The Budapest Memorandum was negotiated at political level, but it is not entirely clear whether the instrument is devoid entirely of legal provisions. It refers to assurances, but unlike guarantees, it does not impose a legal obligation of military assistance on its parties.[2][53] According to Stephen MacFarlane, a professor of international relations, "It gives signatories justification if they take action, but it does not force anyone to act in Ukraine."[52]In the US, neither the George H. W. Bush administration nor the Clinton administrationwas prepared to give a military commitment to Ukraine, and they did not believe the US Senate would ratify an international treaty and so the memorandum was adopted in more limited terms.[53] The memorandum has a requirement of consultation among the parties "in the event a situation arises that raises a question concerning the ... commitments" set out in the memorandum.[54] Whether or not the memorandum sets out legal obligations, the difficulties that Ukraine has encountered since early 2014 may cast doubt on the credibility of future security assurances that are offered in exchange for nonproliferation commitments.[55] Regardless, the United States publicly maintains that "the Memorandum is not legally binding", calling it a "political commitment".[25]


Belarus: Budapest Memorandum
Media Statement by the U.S. Embassy in Minsk
April 12, 2013


Repeated assertions by the government of Belarus that U.S. sanctions violate the 1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances are unfounded. Although the Memorandum is not legally binding, we take these political commitments seriously and do not believe any U.S. sanctions, whether imposed because of human rights or non-proliferation concerns, are inconsistent with our commitments to Belarus under the Memorandum or undermine them. Rather, sanctions are aimed at securing the human rights of Belarusians and combating the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and other illicit activities, not at gaining any advantage for the United States.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
No. It doesn’t. Nor does it assure military support.











The memorandum did talk about security guarantees, guarantees not honored by Russia but being honored by the UK and US.

You can try to pretend the Budapest Memorandum doesn't matter despite Ukraine honoring it's end of the bargain (to it's own detriment, in the long run), you can try to pretend that Ukraine aid is the source of our economic woes, and you can try to pretend that your little pathetic, vatnik shilling moronic ass is anything other than a willing Putin knobpolisher looking for any excuse you can to protect your 'traditional Orthodox Christian Russia' from a 'woke west' and are fine with sacrificing Ukraine for that end.

I hope when this war is over and Russia is pushed out, supporting the cost and blood spilled by Russia will haunt your dreams and nightmares will rob you of a good night sleep ever again, ands same for others like you.
 

DarthOne

☦️
The memorandum did talk about security guarantees, guarantees not honored by Russia but being honored by the UK and US.

You can try to pretend the Budapest Memorandum doesn't matter despite Ukraine honoring it's end of the bargain (to it's own detriment, in the long run), you can try to pretend that Ukraine aid is the source of our economic woes, and you can try to pretend that your little pathetic, vatnik shilling moronic ass is anything other than a willing Putin knobpolisher looking for any excuse you can to protect your 'traditional Orthodox Christian Russia' from a 'woke west' and are fine with sacrificing Ukraine for that end.

I hope when this war is over and Russia is pushed out, supporting the cost and blood spilled by Russia will haunt your dreams and nightmares will rob you of a good night sleep ever again, ands same for others like you.

…I don’t know why I even bother.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
…I don’t know why I even bother.
Because you still like to believe I don't know how to dismantle your arguments and memes with precision guided facts you like to ignore and data you wish others would ignore, and think the same openly false Kremlin propaganda you keep swallowing means jack-shit to anyone with basic critical thinking skills and understand of military matters and geopolitics.

You are a pathetic lolcow on most subjects these days, and I no longer think you care about anything others than shitting on Ukraine, simply out of stubborn inability to admit when you've been duped by Kremlin bullshit, and kneejerk desire to protect a 'fellow' Orthodox group from 'globohomo'.

If I didn't know you from back on SB, I would have almost thought you were a paid agent by the Kremlin; the reality is even more pathetic, in that you do this work for the Kremlin for free.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder


Now Medvedev is saying Latvia isn't a real country; guess we know which Baltic state will be first hit if Russia gets what it wants out of Ukraine.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
I'm happy France is stepping up to look after Europe's security and is encouraging other European countries to help take care of this problem in Europe, it's just that I hate Macron personally as a tyrant who is little better than Putin himself, which is recently attested to by the law which bans criticism of the Covid vaccines. He is entirely correct about Putin not stopping with Ukraine, though, but even a broken clock can be right at least two times a day.
 

Cherico

Well-known member


Russia election looking as legit as anything in that farce of a nation.



And here we see that now some in Russia want to dismember France for daring to stand up to them.


R.9ece628e06afb7799043710849372886


All right time for yet another basic map thing.

Population of the EU over 400 million population of russia around 140 million and dropping.

Size of economies? The whole of russia had an economy the size of Italy before this war. Finlands and Sweden just joined nato. When it comes to Naval assets? The baltic fleet and black sea fleets are now functionally useless. That leaves the russian pacific and artic fleets which are you know not great.

Navally speaking Russia loses.

When it comes to man power? They have been blowing through that in ukraine and fully have their hands full they have also lost a lot of tanks and very expensive equipement and are being forced to bring out older and less effective weapontry. For their ammunition they have been forced to go to north korea for shells.

Europe by contrast isn't in full war economy neither is the US. Russia isn't going to get to france by water or by air they have to go by land...and look at all of those countries in the way many of whom really hate the russians. The only way they have to potentially win is nuclear weapons.

And lets be honest those weapons had a 20% failure rate when they were brand new. Their nukes are now 40 plus years old, and anti missle tech has gotten a lot more advanced. Russia does not have the power to win this not any more. They go up against nato they die and become the new carthrage.
 

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