Russia-Ukraine War Politics Thread Mk. 2



New Finnish president is talking about EU and eventual NATO membership for Ukraine, as well as how Finland will be increasing their aid to Ukraine.

That tracks. Finns have hated Russia for centuries. The annexation of Karelia didn't help. They've kept the Cold War military mentality alive and well. There is a bunker for every city dweller. The 800,000 Finns without them are nomads in the tundra following their reindeer in a great loop throughout Scandinavia. The bunkers can be supplied and ready for use within three days of warning by a robust civil defense logistics arm. Every new building and underground infrastructure built is legally required to have a bunker that meets military specifications. With very severe penalties for not meeting those specifications.

Edit: corrected the number
 
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Ironically, Russia would probably be stronger as an alliance/coalition of like-minded independent states as opposed to ONE GIGANTIC BIGFUCKHUGE COUNTRY HOARDING 3.35% OF THE EARTH'S SURFACE. We need more Russians within their own country to start advocating a balkanization of the country. It's too fucking big. What the hell are people reasonably expected to do with all that goddamned land area?
Nothing. Look at a population density map of Russia. A whole lot of that land Russia is so proud of holding is uncivilized taiga and icy wastelands with a nasty climate and extreme cost of living if it were to be settled (in the settlements that do exist there living standards aren't great even by the humble Russian standards despite a lot of subsidies being involved). They are functionally not unlike deserts in ME and Africa, there's pretty much no good reason for anyone to live there except for running a mine, lumber camp or oil field.
Most people live in the more European part of Russia, and even then they have plenty of room there. And they absolutely hate the idea of the mining/drilling/woodcutting camp parts being taken away from them, its easy money after all.
Russie-densite-2017.png
 
Nothing. Look at a population density map of Russia. A whole lot of that land Russia is so proud of holding is uncivilized taiga and icy wastelands with a nasty climate and extreme cost of living if it were to be settled (in the settlements that do exist there living standards aren't great even by the humble Russian standards despite a lot of subsidies being involved). They are functionally not unlike deserts in ME and Africa, there's pretty much no good reason for anyone to live there except for running a mine, lumber camp or oil field.
Most people live in the more European part of Russia, and even then they have plenty of room there. And they absolutely hate the idea of the mining/drilling/woodcutting camp parts being taken away from them, its easy money after all.
Russie-densite-2017.png
That population density map also reminds me of why I lol at Eurolibs who try to distance themselves from Russia. They all categorize Russia as an Asian country despite the fact almost all of its population lives in Europe!
 
The problem is that if you admit that Russia was being two faced about whether it recognizes the sovereignty of Ukraine, which it recognized officially and then many times implicitly, then that raises a whole storm of very important questions about what other treaties and recognition in the region and beyond Russia is being two faced about until a convenient moment arrives to start remembering about those claims too.

And if those questions are to be answered, then NATO expansion cannot be seen as anything other than a completely justified and in fact very measured reaction to Russia's suspicious maneuvers regarding its former "sphere of influence". After all, if Russia honestly had no ambitions there, then minor and medium ex-WP countries would have no interest in NATO membership or even military spending really, who's going to invade them in that case?
But if Russia is looking like it thinks that it got a bad hand of cards at the end of Soviet Union and wants to get a few extra cards here and there, by any means necessary, then it doesn't get to complain that others want to lock out that possibility before it is realized, while NATO membership is means to do it in a relatively cheap and peaceful manner when compared to alternatives (like nuclear proliferation).
I disagree; you could just as easily argue that continued NATO expansion, after the supposed end of the Cold War, created a self-fulfilling prophecy by causing Russia to believe that peace was never an option, and future conflict with America and Europe was inevitable.



NATO expanded because those nations did not want to ever be under Moscow's thumb again, and knew that unless they had a NATO nuclear umbrella on call, Russia would try to 'reclaim' their lost vassals as soon as they could.
Which was understandable from their perspective; but then, it wouldn't be the first time trying to prevent a war, by preemptively preparing for war, ends up provoking one.
 
Slippery slope dictates it has to start somewhere. Remember how in the West we went from "Look just ignore them, let them do whatever they want in their own bedrooms" to "Pedophilia is a legitimate sexual behavior, children can totally choose their own sexualities too"
Take it too far though, and you end up treating all of humanity like a plague on this earth that must be exterminated.
 
Slippery slope dictates it has to start somewhere. Remember how in the West we went from "Look just ignore them, let them do whatever they want in their own bedrooms" to "Pedophilia is a legitimate sexual behavior, children can totally choose their own sexualities too"
Taking this logic to its end conclusion, it suggests that if any politician as much as says one mean word about another country, that means tanks are soon to follow. I don't know where that happens, but probably it's not our reality. It generally takes a whole lot more than that.
I disagree; you could just as easily argue that continued NATO expansion, after the supposed end of the Cold War, created a self-fulfilling prophecy by causing Russia to believe that peace was never an option, and future conflict with America and Europe was inevitable.
Russia cannot at the same time believe and disbelieve that peace is an option. Especially conveniently acting according to former when it gets another trade treaty, international initiative, diplomatic favor or something other from western powers, but surprisingly forgetting that and going to the latter when it comes to dealing with neighbors.

Seems to me like Russia's memory about claims and grievances is selective, and not just randomly, but in a very clever and convenient way. When the West was willing to extend trust to them, give them favors and admit it to trade deals and so on, everything was fine, they were willing to say yeah, no claims there, we're all sovereign countries, you can even have that in writing... but the moment Russia feels a bit stronger it turns out all these things that were ok before are suddenly a security concern for Russia that no one mentioned when it could have broken the deals. Let's be honest, if Russian politicians told Ukraine and western countries the same opinions on what they think on Ukraine's sovereignty and what actions it cannot do under threat of military intervention as they do now, Ukraine would have never given up nuclear weapons.
And considering that Russia, UK and USA signed off on that deal and its security clauses, it's a very awkward situation for all the other parties regarding their relations with Russia.
Long story short, if Russia wants to deceive other countries on what its true claims, ambitions and expectations are regarding its long term relations with them, it deserves everything coming to it out of the chaos caused by playing games like that.

If Russia considered NATO expansion such a massive and non-negotiable dealbreaker, it should have put that in clear writing and refused to sign things like the Budapest Memorandum in their existing form and made such expectations clear from the start. Maybe things would have went differently. Maybe the conflict would have happened much earlier. Maybe not at all. Maybe they would be signed in the end, but Russia would have had to make major concessions in other areas, or would not have gotten some very profitable deals with EU members.
But even if it is honest about those concerns, which i doubt, then the grand deception about their non-existence in the past deserves its own punishment and in its own right can be considered a perfidious and hostile move.
 
Taking this logic to its end conclusion, it suggests that if any politician as much as says one mean word about another country, that means tanks are soon to follow. I don't know where that happens, but probably it's not our reality. It generally takes a whole lot more than that.

Yup.



If Russia considered NATO expansion such a massive and non-negotiable dealbreaker, it should have put that in clear writing and refused to sign things like the Budapest Memorandum in their existing form and made such expectations clear from the start.

I don't know about the Budapest Memorandum, but Russia has been saying that for years. It's also been saying other things, sure, but complaining about NATO expantion's not remotely new.
 
Taking this logic to its end conclusion, it suggests that if any politician as much as says one mean word about another country, that means tanks are soon to follow. I don't know where that happens, but probably it's not our reality. It generally takes a whole lot more than that.
I mean yeah if you stretch it infinitely that's what happens, but lets face the facts here, the slippery slope is very much real.
Japan is already infected with LGBT propaganda and they won't survive the onslaught unless they actively resist it.
 
Yup.





I don't know about the Budapest Memorandum, but Russia has been saying that for years. It's also been saying other things, sure, but complaining about NATO expantion's not remotely new.
Well it definitely wasn't as many years as Budapest Memorandum signing in 1993.
It was certainly no later than the 2008 invasion of Georgia.
Probably not in 1994 when it was joining G7 which was quite a favor with the state of its economy at the time.
Not in 1996 and 1997, when Ukraine finished denuclearization and NATO-Ukraine partnership was established, NATO was enlarged, and in December a significant treaty was signed with EU that included trade sections, damn it would have spoiled the mood if they complained about NATO expansion there.
Not in 2001, when at the beginning of GWOT Russia-US relations were looking unusually well and Russia offered some support in Central Asia, without as much as wanting anything in writing regarding future of NATO even though it would be a clever moment to ask for favors, which Russia still got in form of Bush administration taking a softer position on Russia's adventures in Chechnya, and there was as more talk of Russia joining NATO than blocking its expansion...
So we can safely say that the change of heart, or at least change of shown attitude, happened somewhere between 2002 and 2007.
 


Hezbollah and the IRGC are training Russian drone operators.

@Simonbob so what was that about Iran and their terrorist proxies not being part of the convo about what Russia is doing to Ukraine.

No news to those in the know since at least several years.
Some of our resident isolationist commentators seem to think that the geopolitical issues with Iran, Russia, China etc are unrelated and should be treated as such.
If only the leaders of those countries also got the memo that they aren't supposed to cooperate, then things would be easier for our side, what a shame that they don't feel like listening to some isolationist advisors...
 
And how do you fix that?
Bacle's violent impulses aside, part of the problem with countries and cultures that have decided they have a right to rule others, is that there's really only two ways that such ambitions will end.

1. You outright conquer them and use force to correct their misconceptions.
2. You hope that they change their minds for themselves.

Against a nuclear power, #1 isn't really a practical option, so you're stuck with beating them back to their own borders, and then hoping they change their mind for themselves.

You say that a 'carrot and stick' approach should be tried, and fail to understand this was tried.

Part of the reason that the Germans made themselves dependent on Russian oil and natural gas, and spent immense sums of money building infrastructure to import it, is because they thought that these economic ties would be too profitable for the Russians to risk them in a war.

They were wrong. Instead the Russians thought of it as a way that foolish westerners had made themselves weak and vulnerable, so pressure could be applied to make them not get involved in the war in Ukraine.

Russia very much was offered the carrot. They'd been offered multiple carrots, many western businesses had invested millions to billions in building infrastructure in Russia to do business there. A lot of their oil and natural industry was rebuilt by foreign talent that was contracted to come in and do essential high-skill, high-competence roles that they couldn't fulfill themselves.

Russia has nationalized a lot of the assets and infrastructure foreign companies invested there since the war began.

Russia was offered the carrot or the stick, and decided that they'd try to steal both of them.

When someone exhibits behavior like that, the only option is to beat them with the stick, until they stop trying to steal.
 


If some of the UA skeptics want to understand why so many normal people in the GOP support Ukraine, instead of echoing the lies of online pundits who are just out for clicks.
 
I mean, yeah.
It's called they arnt in echo chambers and live normal lives and see what is going on.

I an just waiting for it to hit that maybe, jist maybe supporting Ukraine will help get us to be a larger hegemony and make China back off...
Yep.

They just want to shit on 'normies' and get their meme's off, and are just reverse-NPCs who will let anyone who 'opposes' the 'normies' dictate their views and politics

Admitting that the 'normies' might be right about something, more worryingly the establishment might have been right about something, means having to judge things based on individual merits again, instead of just kneejerk opposing anything the 'establishment/normies' want/do.

Frankly the way the much of the MAGA GOP and the grifters who have come in on Trump's coattails have acted with regards to Ukraine has made me glad I never registered as a Republican.
 
The Russian Civil War stuff is a fig leaf justification at best.

In reality Nato was getting way to close, freaking Russia out and causing them to lash out to ensure they still have some strategic buffer room.

Then the west decided this was the perfect time to try and bleed Russia dry through a proxy war. It seems to have worked well in that regard.

Unfortunately it seems to have driven Russia straight into a alliance with China. So... not sure if this was the best way to go.

I
Bacle's violent impulses aside, part of the problem with countries and cultures that have decided they have a right to rule others, is that there's really only two ways that such ambitions will end.

1. You outright conquer them and use force to correct their misconceptions.
2. You hope that they change their minds for themselves.

Against a nuclear power, #1 isn't really a practical option, so you're stuck with beating them back to their own borders, and then hoping they change their mind for themselves.

You say that a 'carrot and stick' approach should be tried, and fail to understand this was tried.

Part of the reason that the Germans made themselves dependent on Russian oil and natural gas, and spent immense sums of money building infrastructure to import it, is because they thought that these economic ties would be too profitable for the Russians to risk them in a war.

They were wrong. Instead the Russians thought of it as a way that foolish westerners had made themselves weak and vulnerable, so pressure could be applied to make them not get involved in the war in Ukraine.

Russia very much was offered the carrot. They'd been offered multiple carrots, many western businesses had invested millions to billions in building infrastructure in Russia to do business there. A lot of their oil and natural industry was rebuilt by foreign talent that was contracted to come in and do essential high-skill, high-competence roles that they couldn't fulfill themselves.

Russia has nationalized a lot of the assets and infrastructure foreign companies invested there since the war began.

Russia was offered the carrot or the stick, and decided that they'd try to steal both of them.

When someone exhibits behavior like that, the only option is to beat them with the stick, until they stop trying to steal.

Russia has also kind of been like this since the days of the golden hoard, investing in russia is almost always a mistake because the russians will just steal anything you build.
 

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