Russia-Ukraine War Politics Thread Mk. 2

Yep they probably are 100% true info, since people in America generally only get arrested and charged when they're telling fucking truth. It's just standard policy when it comes to leaks, if you want the quintessential example of this then just look at the wikileak situation.
No, the government policy and law is that people get arrested and charged if they release accordingly marked government documents. It doesn't matter if the documents were written by a genius, or a retarded diversity hire and are full of distilled bullshit, or by an agent as part of counter-intel operation, if they are officially marked as classified, people will get prosecuted for spreading them regardless.
Thanks for showing everyone your lack of understanding of how law and regulations work, see, your problem is that many other things you think you understand, you understand about as well as that.
And the edgy anarkiddies aren't the people that actually need to hear this so telling them would be pointless, whereas disabusing you of your naive tendency to believe everything a person of authority tells you does serve a purpose. Because the only reason that politicians get away with so much for so little effort is the fact that people like you are so common, i.e the people that refuse to accept that the government might be lying to them.
You whine about me "believing everything a person of authority tells me", and few sentences earlier you whine about me saying US government document is full of shitty estimates.
If you are going to whine at me, at least get it straight what are you whining about.
Have you considered that perhaps governments also lie to themselves?
The major difficulty of this is largely due to the fact that people like you tend suffer from selective amnesia of the sort where you forget every fact that doesn't mesh with your personal worldview the moment you stop paying attention to it. Which is why you have to be reminded over and over and over again, in the hopes that one day it'll actually stick which will also be the day you'll have finally grown up.

Unconditionally believing in authority figures is fine for children, but it's a societal disease when adults do it in a large enough number.
Cute. We have already talked about your worldview. You think being contrarian is something to be proud of, while that means you're a mirror NPC, and you have already confirmed that with our Islam discussion. If you don't like my worldview, i consider that a praise of my worldview.
Which is why instead of mollycoddling you
The only thing being mollycoddled here is your ego, and it is done by you.
by lying I am instead going out of my way to tell you that this war isn't going to be any different from the previous 8, and that some time after the fact it'll slowly come out that the government and the media were lying about the casualties and about how well war was going just like they did in every other war. And then like every other time this has happened throughout your life you're going to try to ignore it and forget about it, just so that you can repeat your mistake by unquestioningly buying into the next war the government is selling.
For one it is different in that it is not fought by USA. You are trying to substitute knowledge of warfare and history with leddit meme savviness, but that's not going to fucking work on someone who knows anything, the information value of the memes you are trying to push on me is less than zero. That is, you would be better informed if you just forgot them and started from zero.
 
Cute. We have already talked about your worldview. You think being contrarian is something to be proud of, while that means you're a mirror NPC, and you have already confirmed that with our Islam discussion. If you don't like my worldview, i consider that a praise of my worldview.
This is what I'm responding to since this is the only part of your response that's actually worth something, you changed my views on Islam through your adversarial response and counterargument that emigration would be better than assimilation. But that only reinforces my general worldview, I am adversarial and contrarian to make my opponent think and better themselves.
 
Germany and US 'will pressure Zelensky to negotiate with Russia'


Germany and the US will put pressure on Ukraine to negotiate with Russia by scaling back weapons deliveries in what would be a major blow to Kyiv's hopes of victory, German media reported on Friday.

Bild, a German tabloid, reported what it described as a "secret" German-American plan to force Ukraine's hand on opening peace talks, citing sources in the German government.

Under the plan, Washington and Berlin would supply Ukraine with sufficient weapons and armour to hold the current front line, but not enough to retake occupied territory.

They hope to push Volodymr Zelensky, the Ukrainian president, towards the negotiating table with Vladimir Putin, the Russian leader.

"Zelensky should realise that it can't go on like this," a German government source told Bild, referring to Ukraine's stalled counter-offensive against Russian in the east. "He needs to, of his own free will, turn to face his nation and explain that there is a need to negotiate."

German government sources also told Bild that the White House shared Germany's view on the need to shift the focus from weapons deliveries to negotiations.

There was no response to the report from the White House as of Friday night. Washington has repeatedly vowed to support Ukraine's efforts to expel Russian troops.

Bild noted that, as the largest providers of armour and defence to Ukrainian forces, a request from Germany and the US would have to be taken seriously by Mr Zelensky.

Germany's government did not immediately respond to the Bild report, which will frustrate officials in Kyiv as they continue to strive for a full military victory over Russia, including the recapture of occupied territory.

Bild also suggested that there is a rift in the German government between Olaf Scholz, the chancellor, and Boris Pistorius, his defence minister. The latter played no part in drawing up the plan to give Ukraine "just enough [arms] not to go under" and would even support delivering powerful Taurus missiles to Ukraine, sources said.

"Since Scholz took office, the defence ministry has been under the thumb of the federal chancellor's office. Many decisions are made there," an anonymous defence official told Bild, in what seemed to be an attempt to distance the minister from the alleged German-American plan.

The Telegraph understands, that beyond Germany, there are concerns in Nato nations that Ukraine's counter-offensive was "over-hyped" and that there is a desire to manage future expectations about the next stage of the war.

Mr Scholz's rival CDU party also reacted with alarm to the plan, which it said was evidence that the chancellor had no intention of helping Ukraine to win the war, even though it is an existential conflict.

"It becomes ever more clear that the chancellor does not believe in a Ukrainian victory and does not want one at all," said Roderich Kiesewetter, a CDU Bundestag member.

Robert Fico, the Slovak premier, has said the Ukraine war risks lasting until 2030 if peace talks are not started. The populist Left-winger won September's general election, pledging during the campaign to discontinue the military aid given to Ukraine by previous governments.

"This conflict is frozen, it is in a state wherein it may last until 2029 or 2030," Mr Fico said. "It is better to lead talks for 10 years in peace or with suspended combat operations than to go to the negotiations table after 10 years without any result, only to find out that we have another 500,000 or 600,000 dead."

In the Netherlands, Geert Wilders, campaigned in the elections on a promise to halt arms shipments to Ukraine.

So why did Biden make Ukraine fight and lose hundreds of thousands of soldiers to end up exactly where we knew we would be on day 1? Oh right, to get Democrats and RINOs more laundered money, after their cash cow Sam Bankman got caught.

And because the Neo-cons are out-of-touch psychopaths stuck in the 1990's mindset of American supremacy and thought they could launder lots of American taxpayer money in the process and later divide and carve up Russia. Videos from The Duran Jan/Feb 2022 make your point exactly, it was a fools gambit. These neocons think they're clever with their story lines but they're children with dynamite using legacy media to hide the bodies.

On the plus side, with all those white Ukrainians dead, think of all the Diversity and Inclusion they can get now! (I am only somewhat joking here)

Ongoing conflict could have ended in 2022 if Ukraine agreed to remain neutral: Kyiv's top MP


Russia was ready to stop the fighting had Ukraine agreed to remain neutral, but the West advised Kyiv to keep going, the head of President Vladimir Zelensky's parliamentary faction – and the chief negotiator at the peace talks in Istanbul, says David Arakhamia.

In a shocking revelation, the head of President Vladimir Zelensky's parliamentary faction David Arakhamia said that Russia was ready to stop the fighting had Ukraine agreed to remain neutral, but the West advised Kyiv to keep going.

Russia was ready to stop the fighting had Ukraine agreed to remain neutral, but the West advised Kyiv to keep going, the head of President Vladimir Zelensky's parliamentary faction – and the chief negotiator at the peace talks in Istanbul, David Arakhamia was quoted by Russia Today as saying.

Arakhamia, who heads the 'Servant of the People' parliamentary group, told the TV channel 1+1 that Moscow had offered Kyiv a peace deal in March 2022, but the Ukrainian side did not trust Moscow, according to Russia Today.

"Russia's goal was to put pressure on us so that we would take neutrality. This was the main thing for them: They were ready to end the war if we accepted neutrality like Finland once did. And we would make a commitment that we will not join NATO. This was the main thing," Arakhamia was quoted as saying by Russia Today.

Meanwhile, Ukraine launched one of the biggest drone attacks on the Moscow-annexed Crimean Peninsula since the full-scale war that started with Russia's invasion 21 months ago, Russian officials said Friday. They did not mention any casualties or damage.

At the same time, Ukrainian officials reported that the Kremlin's forces escalated their weekslong and costly attempt to storm Avdiivka, a strategically important city in eastern Ukraine.

The stepped-up efforts came as both sides are keen to show they are not deadlocked as the fighting approaches 2024. Neither side has gained much ground despite a Ukrainian counteroffensive that began in June, and analysts predict the war will be a long one.

With winter weather setting in, bringing snow and freezing temperatures to the battlefield, Ukraine and Russia are looking to take ground that could provide platforms for future advances.

The Moscow-appointed governor for the Russian-occupied part of southern Ukraine's Kherson region, Vladimir Saldo, said Ukraine launched a major drone attack on Crimea early Friday. He claimed that dozens of drones were shot down over the province and the northern part of Crimea.

Russia annexed the peninsula from Ukraine in 2014, a move that most of the world considered illegal, and has used it as a staging and supply point during the war.

The Russian Defense Ministry said air defences downed 13 Ukrainian drones over Crimea and three more over southern Russia's Volgograd region.

Ukrainian officials did not comment on the Russian reports. It was not possible to independently verify either side's battlefield claims.

Russia has been trying to capture Avdiivka since Oct. 10, using heavy bombardments and reportedly taking heavy losses. The city is wrecked, and the battle has become reminiscent of the fight over the eastern Ukraine city of Bakhmut, which was largely destroyed during nine months of fighting before Russian troops eventually captured it.

Avdiivka lies in the northern suburbs of Donetsk, a city in a region of the same name that Russian forces partially occupy. Avdiivka's location grants Ukrainian forces artillery advantages over the city and could serve as a springboard for them to liberate Donetsk.

After intense artillery and aerial bombardments, Russian troops attacked the heavily fortified city from an additional direction and spread along the line of contact whereas before they attacked in columns, Vitalii Barabash, the head of Avdiivka's military administration, said Friday.

The city is enduring up to 40 bombardments daily, he said.

TLDR:
An interview with Ukrainian's chief negotiator was just released in the Ukraine. In it he said that during the 2022 peace negotiations the Russian's only significant condition was that Ukraine remain neutral and that Ukraine stop abusing Russian speaking citizens. He further stated on air that Zelensky rejected the peace deal because Borris Johnson made a visit said NATO would not support this plan.

I'm hearing claims that this interview is reverberating throughout the Ukraine. And that people aren't happy that 100,000's of Ukrainians died for nothing.

Oh and before someone starts about Russia's supposed incoming demographic issues and how now Ukraine will be able to seek vengeance in the coming decade as the Russian boomers (the generation, not the submarines) retire or whatever.

First off, its not like Ukraine was much better before the war. Second, now the Ukrainian demographic was just wiped the fuck out by the war. Who's going to be seeking this vengeance on behalf of Ukraine in? Replacement migrants who have no national pride whatsoever?


...And now I wait for the inevitable screeching of calling my a Putin-sympathizer, vatnik and so on and so forth etc etc. :rolleyes:
 
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Germany and US 'will pressure Zelensky to negotiate with Russia'

Yeah, Biden sucks for slow walking the aid with the fig leaf of "muh escalation".
So why did Biden make Ukraine fight and lose hundreds of thousands of soldiers to end up exactly where we knew we would be on day 1? Oh right, to get Democrats and RINOs more laundered money, after their cash cow Sam Bankman got caught.

And because the Neo-cons are out-of-touch psychopaths stuck in the 1990's mindset of American supremacy and thought they could launder lots of American taxpayer money in the process and later divide and carve up Russia. Videos from The Duran Jan/Feb 2022 make your point exactly, it was a fools gambit. These neocons think they're clever with their story lines but they're children with dynamite using legacy media to hide the bodies.
GOP sucks for not grilling Biden much harder over the above.
On the plus side, with all those white Ukrainians dead, think of all the Diversity and Inclusion they can get now! (I am only somewhat joking here)

Ongoing conflict could have ended in 2022 if Ukraine agreed to remain neutral: Kyiv's top MP

Usual appeasement memes who cares.
TLDR:
An interview with Ukrainian's chief negotiator was just released in the Ukraine. In it he said that during the 2022 peace negotiations the Russian's only significant condition was that Ukraine remain neutral and that Ukraine stop abusing Russian speaking citizens. He further stated on air that Zelensky rejected the peace deal because Borris Johnson made a visit said NATO would not support this plan.
So translation from diplospeak to English, Russia's only significant condition was to be given unrestricted veto rights over Ukrainian foreign and internal policy. AKA conditional surrender of sovereignty. Could aswell rename Ukraine as "Ukrainian autonomy, under Russian protectorate".
If Zelensky agreed to it, he would be an idiot or a traitor.
NATO should agree to it only under the condition of Russia remaining neutral and not abusing its minorities, of course to be supervised and judged by US government, wonder if Putin would agree to such reasonable demands.
I'm hearing claims that this interview is reverberating throughout the Ukraine. And that people aren't happy that 100,000's of Ukrainians died for nothing.

Oh and before someone starts about Russia's supposed incoming demographic issues and how now Ukraine will be able to seek vengeance in the coming decade as the Russian boomers (the generation, not the submarines) retire or whatever.

First off, its not like Ukraine was much better before the war. Second, now the Ukrainian demographic was just wiped the fuck out by the war. Who's going to be seeking this vengeance on behalf of Ukraine in? Replacement migrants who have no national pride whatsoever?


...And now I wait for the inevitable screeching of calling my a Putin-sympathizer, vatnik and so on and so forth etc etc. :rolleyes:
Have at it, what was the point of showing up here to regurgitate the tired, old, many times sifted through vomit of "line must go up, war is too expensive" globalist appeasers in the West that you supposedly don't like and Russian media? Is it because in this specific case those two agree?
 
I mean, it is probably because our current admin has no balls to support something long term.

Man, who would have thought Russia would have ao kuch influence on the right.
Maybe the dems wernt lying about Russian influence.....

And Zelensky will not negotiate.
There are plenty of other nation who will support Ukraine.
Estonia has given damn near everything. As has Latvia, Lithuania.
All Baltic countries that are threat of the next invasion.
Someone will keep Ukraine going.
Yeah, Biden sucks for slow walking the aid.

GOP sucks for not grilling Biden over the above.

Usual appeasement memes who cares.

So translation from diplospeak to English, Russia's only significant condition was to be given unrestricted veto rights over Ukrainian foreign and internal policy. AKA conditional surrender of sovereignty. Could aswell rename Ukraine as "Ukrainian autonomy, under Russian protectorate".
If Zelensky agreed to it, he would be an idiot or a traitor.
NATO should agree to it only under the condition of Russia remaining neutral and not abusing its minorities, of course to be supervised and judged by US government, wonder if Putin would agree to such reasonable demands.

Have at it, what was the point of showing up here to regurgitate the tired, old, many times sifted through vomit of "line must go up, war is too expensive" globalist appeasers in the West that you supposedly don't like and Russian media? Is it because in this specific case those two agree?
See, marduk they seem to think NOT supporting Ukraine is good for America when the globalist want a place where no war can happen and everyone trades with everyone.

Here we have so called populist wanting a place where everyone is at peace and trading with each other.
Sounds globalist
 
😂
Sure...sure...like Russia/Putin would have backed off taking land b/c the target decided to not fight the takeover...b/c that's all that statement really means.
That poster mentioned the Duran as a credible source of truth, it's safe to say their entire worldview consists on narrative memes crafted in the kremlin.
 
> Finland will close its border
finally

> But only with russia
ah, so rapefugees are still welcome. But only so long they are sent over by george soros instead of by putin

I am surprised they didn't just install people at the border to check on every rapefugee and investigate who sent him over and only allowing in those not sent by putin
They are being sent through Russia into the country.

Or we can also ask the local Finn

@Tyzuris
 
Zelensky abruptly cancels US Senate briefing amid funding row

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has called off a high-profile briefing with US lawmakers amid an impasse over future US funding for the country.

Virtual appearances in the Senate and House had been scheduled for Tuesday, but were cancelled at the last moment.

It came after a top Ukrainian official warned they are in danger of losing the war against Russia if more US military aid is not approved.

Senate leader Chuck Schumer did not explain why Mr Zelensky was a no-show.

The chamber's top Democrat said the Ukrainian president was occupied with a "last-minute" matter, without providing further detail.


The Ukrainian leader was due to appear by video at a classified briefing of senators by top US officials. The meeting proceeded but discussions about the aid package soon descended into chaos.

Mr Zelensky's chief of staff, Andriy Yermak, said earlier on Tuesday there was a "big risk" of Ukrainian defeat without continued US support.

"It will be difficult to keep in [the] same positions and for the people to really survive," he added, in a speech at the US Institute of Peace in Washington DC.

Mr Yermak's dire assessment was given just hours before Mr Zelensky pulled out.

Ukraine's embassy in Washington DC did not immediately respond to a BBC question asking for further explanation for the cancellation.


It comes on the heels of a renewed push by the White House for additional support for Ukraine. The US Congress, however, is still not close to a deal on a compromise spending package that would help fund the war effort.

"We are out of money - and nearly out of time," wrote Shalanda Young, the White House budget director, in a letter to Republican and Democratic leaders published on Monday.

She warned that a failure by Congress to approve more military aid to Ukraine before the end of the year would "kneecap" the nation in its fight against Russia and that there was no "magic pot of funding" left to draw from.

On Monday, however, the Republican Speaker of the House of Representatives, Mike Johnson, seemed dismissive of the latest pleas to provide tens of billions of dollars more in funding.

"The Biden Administration has failed to substantively address any of my conference's legitimate concerns about the lack of a clear strategy in Ukraine, a path to resolving the conflict, or a plan for adequately ensuring accountability for aid provided by American taxpayers," he wrote on social media.


The funding impasse comes as fighting on the frontlines appears to have reached a practical stalemate.

Ukraine's much anticipated counter-offensive in the south appears to have slowed down, while Kyiv's forces are struggling to maintain a foothold they had established on the east bank of the vast Dnipro river.

Getty Images Ukrainian soldiers fire at Russian targets near Avdiivka
Getty Images
Ukrainian soldiers fire at Russian targets near Avdiivka
Since the war began in February 2022, the US Congress has approved more than $110bn (£87bn) in military and economic aid to Ukraine. The Biden administration has warned for months, however, that most of that money has already been distributed.

According to Frederick Kagan, director of the American Enterprise Institute's Critical Threats Project and a former professor at the US Military Academy, the funding delays are already having very real consequences on the Ukrainian battlefield. The current counter-offensive against Russia is being scaled back, and future operations to regain lost territory are in doubt.


"The Ukrainians have to make a hard choice here," he said. "If they are not confident that they're going to get anything else from the United States, then they have to conserve what they have."

What the Ukrainian military needs, he said, is tanks, armoured personnel vehicles, fighter planes, drones and long-range weapons - and the US is the only country that can provide this hardware quickly and in the amounts that Ukraine requires in the coming year.

There continues to be bipartisan majorities in both chambers of Congress for additional US aid to Ukraine, even if it does not reach the $61.4bn level that the White House has requested. Turning that congressional support into legislation that the president can sign into law, however, has proven to be a sizeable challenge.

Republicans and Democrats in the US Senate are currently negotiating an even-larger $106bn spending package that includes aid to Ukraine along with military support for Israel and Taiwan and increased funding for security on the US-Mexico border.


It is this last component of the package, however, that has caused the most political heartburn. Democrats have balked at proposed immigration policy changes, including altering how asylum-seekers at the border are processed and tightening the requirements necessary to qualify for entry into the US.

"In return for providing additional funding for Ukraine, we have to have significant and substantial reforms to our border policy," Republican Senator Tom Cotton of Arkansas said in a television interview on Sunday.

Chuck Schumer has said he will bring a military aid bill to a vote in the chamber this week, but it is unclear if it will have sufficient Republican support without an agreement on immigration measures.

According to US media, a screaming match erupted on Tuesday afternoon at a classified briefing on the aid package provided by Biden administration officials, as Senate Republicans accused Democrats of ignoring their call for border security funding.

Even if Ukraine aid can clear the Senate hurdle, its outlook in the House of Representatives is murky. While Speaker Johnson has said he supports additional funds for Ukraine, he was one of 117 Republicans in the chamber who voted on 28 September to block $300m in additional security assistance for that country.


If he brings a Senate-backed massive aid package to a vote in the chamber, relying on Democratic support to win passage, he could sharply divide Republicans and threaten his own grip on power before another round of acrimonious budget negotiations early next year.

Getty Images A woman walks in front of the graffiti depicting a Ukrainian serviceman making a shot with a US-made Javelin portable anti-tank
Getty Images
Graffiti in Kyiv depicts a Ukrainian serviceman shooting a US-made Javelin portable anti-tank missile
"The United States is going to run in excess of a $2.5 trillion deficit this year," Republican Congressman Matt Rosendale of Montana told BBC World Tonight's James Coomarasamy on Tuesday.

"So why should the people of the United States borrow money from China to give it up to Ukraine? That is not in our best interests."

In a possible attempt to shore up congressional support, the White House has been pitching additional Ukrainian aid in economic as well as national security terms. In her letter to Congress, Ms Young noted that the requested funds would be used to manufacture armaments at factories located across the country.


"We will modernise vital munitions and equipment like Javelins made in Alabama, Guided Multiple Launch Rocket Systems made in West Virginia, Arkansas and Texas... and artillery shells made in Pennsylvania, Arkansas and Iowa and many other states," she writes.

As an election year approaches, the White House may be hoping that members of Congress are looking for ways to tout how their actions are helping the local economies in their home districts.

Mr Kagan said he was not surprised that Ukraine funding had become a more controversial topic of political debate in the US as the conflict approaches its third year.

"The American people deserve to have hashed out by their representatives exactly what America's interests are, and to have real debate on distribution of what is after all the large amount of money," he says.

In the end, however, he said the stakes were clear.


"The outcome of this war is going to be determined primarily by what the Ukrainians can do, but a very close second by what the United States chooses to do."
 
Again.
Ask the person from there
I don't really need to? I've extensively travelled throughout Europe, hold dual citizenship and have relatives in Sweden, Denmark and Norway.

I'm well aware of the immigrant flow in most of the Scandinavian countries.
 

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