Russia-Ukraine War Politics Thread Mk. 2

[DarthOne]

Blinken: About 90% of financial military aid to Kyiv remains in the US - The Storiest

Photo: © Global Look Press/Keystone Press Agency/Cfoto Read ren.tv in About 90 percent of financial military aid to Ukraine was actually directed to the US military-industrial complex. This was stated by US Secretary of State Antony Blinken at a joint conference with British Foreign Minister...

thestoriest.com

To everyone who belittled or disbelieved me when I said that funding Ukraine was a giant money-laundering scheme:

PAY UP NOW.

 

[Zachowon]

...because the aid was not fully monetary but equipment and munitions.
That is how they make it by having the money to produce it...

 

[Cherico]

Blinken: About 90% of financial military aid to Kyiv remains in the US - The Storiest

Photo: © Global Look Press/Keystone Press Agency/Cfoto Read ren.tv in About 90 percent of financial military aid to Ukraine was actually directed to the US military-industrial complex. This was stated by US Secretary of State Antony Blinken at a joint conference with British Foreign Minister...

thestoriest.com

To everyone who belittled or disbelieved me when I said that funding Ukraine was a giant money-laundering scheme:

PAY UP NOW.

I hope you accept payment in memes.

 

[Marduk]

Blinken: About 90% of financial military aid to Kyiv remains in the US - The Storiest

Photo: © Global Look Press/Keystone Press Agency/Cfoto Read ren.tv in About 90 percent of financial military aid to Ukraine was actually directed to the US military-industrial complex. This was stated by US Secretary of State Antony Blinken at a joint conference with British Foreign Minister...

thestoriest.com

To everyone who belittled or disbelieved me when I said that funding Ukraine was a giant money-laundering scheme:

PAY UP NOW.

LEARN TO READ RIGHT FUCKING NOW.
What's so bad with US government spending money in US defense business to support Ukraine?
Would you prefer the money to be spent in China instead?
Don't you think the products of US military-industrial complex may be the kind of stuff Ukraine may want as aid?

 

[mrttao]

LEARN TO READ RIGHT FUCKING NOW.
What's so bad with US government spending money in US defense business to support Ukraine?
Would you prefer the money to be spent in China instead?
Don't you think the products of US military-industrial complex may be the kind of stuff Ukraine may want as aid?

That "defense business" is owned by the oligarchs.
Fully financed by USA taxpayers, while the oligarchs keep all the money that comes in despite the fact they are not the ones financing it.

 

[Marduk]

That "defense business" is owned by the oligarchs.
Fully financed by USA taxpayers, while the oligarchs keep all the money that comes in despite the fact they are not the ones financing it.

So? What are you trying to say here?

Everyone should become a retarded pacifist because of it?
Communism, nationalization or other coup against private property rights should be done?
Ukraine should be spending aid money in another state's defense business with different structure of ownership?
Should the same solution, whatever it may be, be also applied to other vital businesses owned by the ultra rich?

 

[mrttao]

So? What are you trying to say here?

That they are using foreign aid to launder money from the american commoner to the oligarchs

Everyone should become a retarded pacifist because of it?
Communism, nationalization or other coup against private property rights should be done?

That is a strawman.
You are arguing for feudalism with literal robber barons.
And claiming anyone who disagrees with you is a communist.

USA taxpayer funds should be going to fund military managed programs which produce results owned by the military.

This is not undheard of, as USA govt owns most of the bullet production facilities in the USA (which is how biden cut down access to ammo by 70% by ordering them to not sell to the public anymore. only leaving private factories supplying the private market)

While private companies need to be financed by private investors if they want to own their products and sell them for a profit.
Additionally, those foreign aid gifts include stipulations on which companies to buy and at which prices (huge markup. for laundering money)

 

[mrttao]

I like how we went from "it is not happening" to "ok it is happening. but it is a good thing. and if you disagree you are a communist scumbag"

 

[Marduk]

That they are using foreign aid to launder money from the american commoner to the oligarchs

Well who should the foreign aid go through instead then?
I think MIC is kinda *the* relevant way as far as Ukraine is concerned.

That is a strawman.
You are arguing for feudalism with literal robber barons.
And claiming anyone who disagrees with you is a communist.

USA taxpayer funds should be going to fund military managed programs which produce results owned by the military.

But this is one of those few foreign aid programs that do produce results in form of threat reduction from Russia's side by destroying their stuff. Lots of their stuff is being destroyed, can't deny that.

Also, so i see your preferred solution is that more of MIC should be state run and owned, great, with right wingers like that, who even needs the left.

This is not undheard of, as USA govt owns most of the bullet production facilities in the USA (which is how biden cut down access to ammo by 70% by ordering them to not sell to the public anymore. only leaving private factories supplying the private market)

While private companies need to be financed by private investors if they want to own their products and sell them for a profit.
Additionally, those foreign aid gifts include stipulations on which companies to buy and at which prices (huge markup. for laundering money)

*citation needed*

I like how we went from "it is not happening" to "ok it is happening. but it is a good thing. and if you disagree you are a communist scumbag"

No, we went to "water is fucking wet, stop being shocked about it".
Who the fuck is Ukraine supposed to buy missiles and shit from? Educational complex? Agriculture? No, it has to be MIC.

 

[mrttao]

But this is one of those few foreign aid programs that do produce results in form of threat reduction from Russia's side by destroying their stuff. Lots of their stuff is being destroyed, can't deny that.

> it is ok if we live in literal feudalism with literal robber barons so long as our "benevolent" aristocracy are killing Russians

good conversation bro. A+ critical thinking.
Surely those American scientists paid by the American taxpayer would have been unable to design the weapon systems they do without the literal robber barons claiming the fruits of their labor.

*citation needed*

What specifically do you want a citation for.
The thing about biden ordering the military owned factory to not sell bullets to americans?
something else?

 

[Marduk]

> it is ok if we live in literal feudalism with literal robber barons so long as our "benevolent" aristocracy are killing Russians

Yeah, sure, whatever, feudalism, take the teenage grade anti-corporate rants where they belong.

good conversation bro. A+ critical thinking.
Surely those American scientists paid by the American taxpayer would have been unable to design the weapon systems they do without the literal robber barons claiming the fruits of their labor.

I don't know where your disdain for private business and claim of state owned business being preferable comes from but it's definitely not a very conservative or right wing sentiment.
Russia does exactly that, see how it works for them.
As for how it would look in USA, see NASA vs SpaceX.

What specifically do you want a citation for.
The thing about biden ordering the military owned factory to not sell bullets to americans?
something else?

Yeah, military owned factory being a thing specifically, also about Ukraine buying supplies at huge markup.

 

[mrttao]

Yeah, sure, whatever, feudalism, take the teenage grade anti-corporatist rant where they belong.

I cannot facepalm enough at the sheer and utter stupidity.
your problem is that you think there can only exist two things. communism and free market.

You see literal robber barons using a corporation as a smokescreen and go
> it is a "private company" (which happens to be owned by the families of those in govt) therefore it is not communism. therefore it must be free market. therefore it is good and anyone who disagrees is an evil commie.

This is utterly laughable.

You are also lying about what I said. This is not anti corporatism (although that is an entirely different pile of issues).

In a free market, corporations are finances by private investors, who then reap the fruits in case of success.

The USA MIC is feudal barons pretending to be a corporation to hoodwink the simple minded.
It is neither communist nor capitalist, it is simply feudal.

Free market = private investors spend their own money to develop a product. The company either flops (losing the money) or succeeds (bringing in profits).

Communism = govt just officially owns everything

Robber Barons = the USA govt pays 100% of all investment costs, including salaries and infrastructure. One a product is produced by the government on the taxpayer's dime, this product is now owned by the oligarchs. who have spent 0 of their own dollars investing to develop a product, yet reap all the rewards for it.

You defend this practice, we have argued about this before. Even if you are somehow senile and forgot all our past arguments about the subject, you have seen me explicitly refute your points today. but are trying to double down while flip flopping on your position from
> anyone who is against robber barons is a communist
to
> its ok to have robber barons if they kill russians
to
> whatever dude, you are just making an unhinged anti corporate rant

 

[mrttao]

Yeah, military owned factory being a thing specifically, also about Ukraine buying supplies at huge markup.

just a casual search online produces results

NRA-ILA | Treachery! White House Moves to Strangle U.S. Ammunition Supply

Last night, news broke that the Biden Administration is taking behind-the-scenes steps to further strangle the already constricted market for ammunition in the United States. The move could result in a reduction of the commercial production of 5.56 caliber ammunition by over thirty percent.

www.nraila.org

Biden ordered lake city ammo plant in independence, missouri to stop selling bullets to commoners.
the plant is owned by the USA govt.

 

[Marduk]

I cannot facepalm enough at the sheer and utter stupidity.
your problem is that you think there can only exist two things. communism and free market.

Then you know how i feel.
Yeah, tell me more about the third way

You see literal robber barons using a corporation as a smokescreen and go
> it is a "private company" (which happens to be owned by the families of those in govt) therefore it is not communism. therefore it must be free market. therefore it is good and anyone who disagrees is an evil commie.

This is utterly laughable.

You are also lying about what I said. This is not anti corporatism (although that is an entirely different pile of issues).

In a free market, corporations are finances by private investors, who then reap the fruits in case of success.

The USA MIC is feudal barons pretending to be a corporation to hoodwink the simple minded.
It is neither communist nor capitalist, it is simply feudal.

Free market = private investors spend their own money to develop a product. The company either flops (losing the money) or succeeds (bringing in profits).

Communism = govt just officially owns everything

Robber Barons = the USA govt pays 100% of all investment costs, including salaries and infrastructure. One a product is produced by the government on the taxpayer's dime, this product is now owned by the oligarchs. who have spent 0 of their own dollars investing to develop a product, yet reap all the rewards for it.

You defend this practice, we have argued about this before. Even if you are somehow senile and forgot all our past arguments about the subject, you have seen me explicitly refute your points today. but are trying to double down while flip flopping on your position from
> anyone who is against robber barons is a communist
to
> its ok to have robber barons if they kill russians
to
> whatever dude, you are just making an unhinged anti corporate rant

Robber baron (industrialist) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

. By the late 19th century, the term was typically applied to businessmen who used exploitative practices to amass their wealth.[2] Those practices included exerting control over natural resources, influencing high levels of government, paying subsistence wages, squashing competition by acquiring their competitors to create monopolies and raise prices, and schemes to sell stock at inflated prices to unsuspecting investors.[2] The term combines the sense of criminal ("robber") and illegitimate aristocracy (a baron is an illegitimate role in a republic).[3]
Besides the government influence point, out of all sectors of US business, the MIC is not a good match for the term.

just a casual search online produces results

NRA-ILA | Treachery! White House Moves to Strangle U.S. Ammunition Supply

Last night, news broke that the Biden Administration is taking behind-the-scenes steps to further strangle the already constricted market for ammunition in the United States. The move could result in a reduction of the commercial production of 5.56 caliber ammunition by over thirty percent.

www.nraila.org

Biden ordered lake city ammo plant in independence, missouri to stop selling bullets to commoners.
the plant is owned by the USA govt.

Yeah, in that case the relic of WW2 romances with more direct state business control should go away and it should be sold to private entities who will operate it according to market principles.

 

[mrttao]

. By the late 19th century, the term was typically applied to businessmen who used exploitative practices to amass their wealth.[2] Those practices included exerting control over natural resources, influencing high levels of government, paying subsistence wages, squashing competition by acquiring their competitors to create monopolies and raise prices, and schemes to sell stock at inflated prices to unsuspecting investors.[2] The term combines the sense of criminal ("robber") and illegitimate aristocracy (a baron is an illegitimate role in a republic).[3]
Besides the government influence point, out of all sectors of US business, the MIC is not a good match for the term.

You are literally arguing that, from a semantics perspective, a literal aristocracy that literally robs the commoners are NOT robber barons because...
The term was originally used 200 years ago to figuratively refer to to people who abused monopolies.

Instead of refuting the fact that they are robbing the poor to give to oligarchs, the best you could make is this semantics BS.
19th century robber barons did not imagine in their wettest dreams they could literally have the government directly rob the poor for them.

 

[Marduk]

You are literally arguing that, from a semantics perspective, a literal aristocracy that literally robs the commoners are NOT robber barons because...
The term was originally used 200 years ago to figuratively refer to to people who abused monopolies.

Instead of refuting the fact that they are robbing the poor to give to oligarchs, the best you could make is this semantics BS.
19th century robber barons did not imagine in their wettest dreams they could literally have the government directly rob the poor for them.

Either way, is this really a thread for your generic, grandoise, stubborn (and unconstructive) complaining about the whole structure of US economy?
What is this with the whole category of people who go "i don't like how thing X works in America and i have no idea and/or political support to change it so i will whine about Ukraine aid instead until someone addresses it somehow preferably guessing what and how i wanted and also compromising with 10 other whiners who want it solved differently".

 

[mrttao]

Either way, is this really a thread for your generic, grandoise, stubborn (and unconstructive) complaining about the whole structure of US economy?

I am not "complaining about the whole structure".
I am pointing out the exact specific methods via which the oligarchs launder money.

Step 1. tax the commoners. throw the ones who don't pay in a literal rape dungeon.

Step 2. use said commoner money to fully 100% finance the development of products which are "owned" by the corporations owned by the oligarchs. Literally just gifting select bloodlines with both patents and factories producing the products based on those patents at literally 0 investment or risk. "that is just capitalism. don't be a communist"

Step 3. "give" said commoner money to various countries under the stipulation that it MUST be spent to accept specific contracts with specific companies for specific goods. "this is stimulating the economy. think of all the factory jobs we are producing here in america!".

Thus said commoner money flows into the pockets of the oligarchs using a very basic and simplistic laundering scheme. One they are not even hiding.

 

[Marduk]

I am not "complaining about the whole structure".
I am pointing out the exact specific methods via which the oligarchs launder money.

Step 1. tax the commoners. throw the ones who don't pay in a literal rape dungeon.

Step 2. use said commoner money to fully 100% finance the development of products which are "owned" by the corporations owned by the oligarchs. Literally just gifting select bloodlines with both patents and factories producing the products based on those patents at literally 0 investment or risk. "that is just capitalism. don't be a communist"

Step 3. "give" said commoner money to various countries under the stipulation that it MUST be spent to accept specific contracts with specific companies for specific goods. "this is stimulating the economy. think of all the factory jobs we are producing here in america!".

Thus said commoner money flows into the pockets of the oligarchs using a very basic and simplistic laundering scheme. One they are not even hiding.

Again, it is not the thread for your amateur economic analysis/economic conspiracy theorizing.
IMNSHO this is simplistic, delusional shit and you are wasting perfectly good bandwidth putting it on the internet.

 

[Bacle]

Paying for munitions and aid supplies from the US, during an actual fucking war, with US aid money, is not 'money laundering'.

 

[mrttao]

Again, it is not the thread for your amateur economic analysis/economic conspiracy theorizing.
IMNSHO this is simplistic, delusional shit and you are wasting perfectly good bandwidth putting it on the internet.

Which part of it do you claim is false?
So far the best you managed is a semantics argument of "ackshually robber barons were monopolists from 200 years ago".
As well as citation bombs.

And I have already cited several things which... you just glossed over as "this is bad and it shouldn't be happening".

Here, let me re-cite everything in one convenient post:
point 1
Tax evasion is punished by prison

Tax evasion in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

1/5th of prisoners are raped in USA

Prison rape in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Apologies for the lazy wiki cites. I did get other sites but I had the feeling you would dismiss those sites as "crazy conspiracy theory sites" so I stuck to "official" sources like USA govt websites and wikipedia.

point 2
Lockheed martin is constantly given "cost plus" contracts. where tax payer LITERALLY pays for EVERYTHING. The government invents it, LM owns it and sells it.

Contract Award: Lockheed Martin Corp. Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co. Fort Worth (Texas, is awarded a cost-plus-incentive-fee) - $1,439,135,764 - Defense Daily

Lockheed Martin Corp., Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co., Fort Worth, Texas, is awarded a cost-plus-incentive-fee, cost-plus-fixed-fee not-to-exceed $1,439,135,764 undefinitized contract. This contract provides for the continued development of critical F-35 warfighting capabilities, to include...

www.defensedaily.com

Lockheed Martin bags contracts totaling $401M for US Navy and Army (NYSE:LMT)

Lockheed Martin Aeronautics (LMT) is awarded a ~$196.54M cost-plus-incentive-fee, cost reimbursable contract

seekingalpha.com

Cost-plus contract - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

point 3
Congressional Research Service

https://www.everycrsreport.com/files/20110210_R40213_270577bfb8efb9044920eae5ec56d650fce6ca54.pdf

In page 18 it specifies how military aid is entirely spent in usa and economic aid is mostly spent in usa. this is done via a variety of methods. such as USA govt buying stuff on behalf of the recipient then shipping it over, to stipulations in the giving contract on how they must spend it.

So that is 5 different things cited.
not paying tax = prison
prison = rape dungeon
lockheed martin getting cost plus contracts
cost plus contracts explained
usa aid stipulating how the money is spent.

A simple laundering scheme cited from A to Z