mrttao
Well-known member
just put all of it towards paying off some of our national debt
Russia-Ukraine War Politics Thread Mk. 2
- Thread starter Emperor Tippy
- Start date
just put all of it towards paying off some of our national debt
Our national debt isn't a problem, which is what some don't get; sovereign debt does not work like personal debt, and is in fact a useful tool for international policy in terms of being able to sell that debt to other parties as part of trade deals.
Also, that amount would be helpful to Ukraine; it doesn't even rate as a drop in the bucket in terms of the US national budget or debt.
King Arts
Well-known member
Don’t put words in the mouths of isolationists. We aren’t saying this will satisfy Russia. We don’t care if it does this is t peace in our time this is “we don’t give a fuck if Germany invades Poland or Russia. Let them all fight themselves.
Russia, as Ukraine shows, has at best a very limited ability to project military power. It's a threat as far as nuclear, so no, I don't advocate war with them, but that's about it. It doesn't have a huge economy, it doesn't have influence on American companies, etc.
China may or may not be a bigger military threat (I'd guess yes), has enough nukes to hit the fuck no to war threshold, and has the big enough economy and the influence over American companies.
Note that Russia isn't even the second or third biggest threat to America. The first biggest threat to America has been the same since at least Wilson: the American Federal Government. Then comes China. Then comes the EU trying to impose various restrictions on free speech in the internet and other BS that will affect Americans. Then I'd put Cartels here abouts (though I could bump it up a spot). Then comes all the international terrorist groups not counting cartels. Then the Norks when their leader dies or Iran in ten years.
Then comes Russia.
Now if you are looking at threats to Europe, you'll have a much different set, where Russia is higher, but if you are in NATO, not that much higher. That goes double if you aren't bordering them.
Since you missed the point, and my response to someone referencing that very same history, I'll state it openly: I already demonstrated that this isn't the same situation Chamberlain was in with regards to Hitler, and that this isn't appeasement. Putin will not be happy about these terms, as it gains him nothing. It's a permanent stop to any advancement in Europe: the expansion of NATO.
He can't F with NATO, he knows this, and he demonstrated it by getting a tie with people worse than our JV team. Adding Finland to NATO was the penultimate nail in the coffin, adding Ukraine will be the final one.
So why give him anything? Because the only way adding Ukraine to NATO is feasible is if they aren't at war with Russia, and there isn't disputed territory. So it's not appeasing Putin, it's shoving a pyrrhic victory down his throat.
That's far worse, IMO. That's outright theft, and will not look good to an international audience, which we don't care about militarily, but we do economically, as a lot of our power comes from that.
It's dicey to pay using Russia's funds, but one can see the logic under war reparations. For us, a (nominally) third party to the war to do so? That's a bad step.
Look, I was putting my 'realpolitik' hat on for that proposal, I wasn't being an isolationist here. IMO, in a Realpolitik sense, America ought not to care if Ukraine gets taken. It doesn't affect us either way, because NATO. Ukraine isn't an ally of the US. The only reason we care is posturing vs China about what we'll do if they invade Taiwan.
mrttao
Well-known member
they already did the outright theft
and the international audience is all in on it too.
100 billion is a third of New York's yearly budget. It's peanuts. The US Federal budget is 20 times that. Not counting black budgets. Last I looked at old newspaper articles from the late 80s you guys had an estimated near 400 billion in secret funds that the investigators could verify of the leaks. It's probably more now.
No. Crimea and Eastern Ukraine being partitioned is appeasement. Crimea and the rail links to Russia was Putin's minimum objective for victory. Everything up to the Berlin line is his lunatic fancy. He tried to enact a limited implementation of the Seven Days to Berlin Soviet War Plan. Thankfully he was surrounded by grifters and con artists rather than soldiers, compounded by a nonexistent logistics department. A department that was disbanded so private, civilian transport companies Putin and Prigozhyn's families own could take the contract. Companies whose drivers refused to drive into a war zone hahaha!
Not an ally no. But it is a Client state whose territorial security The US Government guaranteed in exchange for Ukraine surrendering its nuclear stockpile and Soviet First Strike weapons platforms.
I think we have reached the point where we are speaking in circles. You've got your opinion and no amount of data contradicting you will change your mind.
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Oh, so you admitted I'm right then and this isn't at all like with the Czechoslovakia? Because the problem with appeasement wasn't that appeasement was a moral failing, it was that it didn't work but instead enabled him to grab further power, and Hitler wasn't appeased. But you admit here that Putin will be fine with nothing more. Hence the Hitler comparison completely fails.
Also, you can phrase it as you'd like, but if you think this was about rail links, and not an attempt to install a puppet government in Ukraine, it's you who are buying Russian Propaganda. This is what they want now, and I'm not even offering that.
Welcome to Realpolitik. Ukraine, once it gave up its weapons for promises, is now useless to us, except to annoy Russia with. Hence why the promise is now of no real value. Or one could argue we already, by arming them a ton, met that requirement.
You haven't made any point that someone else hasn't made before you and better, and you've admitted a key point for me. You are actively agreeing with me about key points in my argument, then claiming I'm not listening to data when you haven't presented any.
You don't get to agree to disagree and say I'm not changing my mind in response to data, when you've presented no data and agreed with me.
Is freezing assets theft by my definition? Yes. But by international law, this is standard enough. But seizing the assets? That's different. You have to make up a whole lotta bullshit to get that to fly under the radar, like calling it war Reparations for Ukraine.
Largo
Well-known member
So China's a threat because China's big?
No. That's wrong.
Let's suppose that the ROC decided to retake the mainland, and by some miracle, somehow managed to pull it off without nukes. Or that the people of China had enough of Communist rule and overthrew the CCP. Would China still be a threat? After all, China would still be big in such a scenario.
If your answer is yes, then the only solution to China is the more or less complete dismemberment of China ala. 1937. If your answer is no, then clearly China is a threat for some other reason.
China is a threat because they want Taiwan, which is one of the primary producers of resources that we need to utilize modern technology.
Russia is not a threat, because they want to take a backwater corrupt shithole thats packed full of people who like to wear Nazi symbols, and the fact that they aren't doing the greatest job at doing so. We see that they're in a stalemate with Ukraine, and both Russia and us know that they stand NO CHANCE against a NATO nation.
You didn't read what I wrote: it's a threat because it influences and suborns companies, and does so in a way that lessens freedom and attacks American culture. It actually does stuff that affects Americans. Russia, quite simply, doesn't, and really hasn't since the 90s.
There's also the Taiwan stuff, and the Nork Support (which again, is such a bad country that I support any country with a chance invading North Korea. If Russia wants to expand by invading North Korea, I would advocate that the US sell arms to Russia, it's that awful a country to its people), and the alternate currency to the Petrodollar stuff, etc.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
So you are not aware Russia has still continued to support the green lobby in the West for decades?
Not just the Greens, but also most Ultra-Woke causes that are causing the US problems can be traced back to Marxist influence on US institutions and academia from the 30's on-wards. Even his own so moral Libertarian Party has been rather heavily influenced by KGB psy-ops over the years.
That, and he doesn't want to pay attention to the actions of Russian intel services attempting to carry out assassinations using nerve gas in western nations (Skirpils), assisted in killing westerners on MH17, and openly been backing the Democratic Socialist of America for ages.
The idea Russia has done nothing to the west or US just shows ignorance of history.
We cannot defeat the wokies till we deal with their masters in Moscow and Beijing.
Yeah, more of the lower level Russian mil-bloggers talking about how to eliminate resistance groups in Ukraine, and expecting to need 20 years to pacify (eliminate anyone who doesn't like the Russian world on their land) the populace.
Anyone who thinks trying to force a peace deal now will actually stop the killing is a fool.
I am aware. That's nowhere near the level of suborning whole companies and industries to the extent China does. Yes, leftists are gonna be stupid leftists. But it's the level of influence I'm looking at, and China is far more of an influence than Russia. Russia is now barely an influence comparatively.
Basically, Russia is looking for second order effects: they support a cause, and that cause affects America. China (and the EU) are doing first order effects: what they do immediately affects America. That's a higher priority.
Now the USSR in the past was and its legacy still is a bigger threat to the US than anything post-Soviet Russia did, but even if Moscow was nuked to cinders by Russia, that effect would still be there. Solving Moscow has very little effect on an infection already present.
King Arts
Well-known member
Yes China would still butt heads with America because a strong China has opposing interests to a strong America. Even if China was not communist but was a republic like Taiwan or a monarchy or a fascist dictatorship. China would still want control over the South China Sea and would not want the U.S. there just like we wouldn’t want China or Russia in South America.
Oh we agree on many things. What we disagree on is the conclusions that the data points to.
I'm not just referring to what I've stated myself but everything the others have brought here. Yes I am blunt, and ineloquent in English. I've never pretended otherwise. I've spent too long in Eastern Europe and the odd sentence structures they have here to remember my 90s college courses. I'm just happy I'm not writing in broken English.
That doesn't have any bearing on the facts.
Personally I'm in the camp that believes you should have finished off the Russians when the Soviets fell and rebuilt them like Japan and Germany. That would've eliminated a lot of problems. That's always been the US problem post 1950 you lack conviction, staying power and follow through. You waste your soldiers' lives on meaningless Political stunts, hampering them with sabotaging ROEs. You are your own worst enemy.
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mrttao
Well-known member
You keep on repeating this nonsense line.
The origins of the woke cult comes from KGB infiltrators who in the 1930s entered the universities of USA and started brainwashing the youth. This cancer metastasized over the year, and mutated.
They have long since became their own self sustaining monster.
The woke cult, centered in usa and west europe, strongly entrenched in all western countries, rules the majority of the world nowadays. Russia is its enemy, not its ruler. The CCP is admired by them as a "communist utopia", but does not rule the woke cult
To claim that Russia and china controls the woke cult is fucking retarded.
To claim we cannot do anything about the woke cult until we destroy both russia and china is fucking retarded
To imply that if we destroy russia and china it will be a big blow to the woke cult is fucking retarded.
It's hilarious you think neither Beijing or Moscow are still actively pushing the wokies along.
But given your detachment from reality on the rest of the subjects around Ukraine and Russia's invasion of it, not surprising you think that way.