ATACMs are ground launched and allow for easier access to fire and move without worrying about getting close enough in contested air
Russia-Ukraine War Politics Thread Mk. 2
- Thread starter Emperor Tippy
- Start date
Fair, ATACMs doesn't put any more strain on the already precious Flanker fleet, who are the only one's who can carry Storm Shadow right now.
Exactly. Allows it to be used without risking an airframe
Fencers also carry it, probably even more often.
There is also the reaction time aspect. ATACMS can hit time sensitive targets way faster than air launched cruise missiles can, which is important for time sensitive targets like ships and command staff meetings.
From acquiring coordinates of a target, say, 200 km from the frontline, with good organization it takes minutes for ATACMS to fire, and being ~50km behind, we are talking about something like additional 5-10 minute flight, so 15 minutes total reaction time.
Meanwhile consider a Su-27 with a subsonic missile. You need to plan the mission, fuel and load the plane, arrange escort, program the missile, brief the pilot. At least an hour, could be more. Then the plane needs to take off, and its not going to be 50km from the frontline, has to be well over 100. So the plane needs another half an hour at least to get to the optimal launch point, and then launch. Then the missile needs to travel another hour or so, totalling 2.5 hours at very minimum. See the difference?
DarthOne
☦️
I have a better question:
Do you want to find out that hard way if they do?
Because I, and probably most of the world, don’t.
Yes, instead you'd rather let Russia do whatever it wants to Ukraine and want to pretend that the Ukrainians are just 'globohomo pawns'.
Here's an easy way to put this; Russia is a jealous ex and rapist, Ukraine is a victim trying to get away from an abuser, and you'd rather let the rape continue than dare attempt to do more than send harsh words Russia's direction.
After all, Ukraine shouldn't have been trying to wear that EU print dress if they did not their jealous ex to decide to rape them to bring them back into submission.
DarthOne
☦️
@Bacle hasn't made a bad analogy.
Take your Wilsonian interventionism and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.
I have some question for you @DarthOne
Is there a point at which you WOULD intercede in the Russian/Ukrainian War?
What would be the extent of your aid during said intervention?
What would cause you to withdraw said aid?
DarthOne
☦️
Unless they start threatening nuclear war, never. And even then it would more of a 'OKAY YOU BOTH NEED TO CALM THE FUCK DOWN' negotiation. Its not part of the USA, it doesn't effect the USA, it's not our business. If the Europeans want to support one side or another, that's their concern. Its their backyard.
If individual US citizens want to send money or go over and fight for one side or another, they can. Though I'm not experienced enough on International law to decide how they would get handled if captured or whatever. So this is somewhat up in the air.
I am also unsure if I would allow any military aid to be sold over seas to the various belligerents during the conflict or not. As with the previous point, it would be easy to abuse such aid by one side or the other to draw the US into the war. Also, such aforementioned aid would not be backed or supported by the US government, it would be the business of private businesses.
Ideally, the US government wouldn't supply any aid unless the war is over. And thus such aid would be medical in nature. Obviously aid would be withdrawn if the treaty was broken. I cannot say much more on the subject, as I suspect a lot would depend on the treaty being signed and the situation around it.
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So you cannot even deny what I posted is a true analogy, you just want to pretend this is 'Wilsonian interventionism' while pretending the US didn't sign to protect Ukraine when they gave up their nukes (something no country will ever do again after what happened to Ghaddafi and is now happening in Ukraine), and ignore everything Russia does, except when you come into this thread to defend Russia/attack Ukraine.
Take your Wilsonian interventionism and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.
Yeah, you are telling the rape victim that they are the evil ones who don't deserve help when you keep acting as a advocate for Russia, which you have done repeatedly, no matter what information is presented to you.
You are an Tard-Right NPC, Darth, just an opposing reflection of the knee-jerk Tard-Left NPCs, and just as dumb.
Edit: Also, isolationism doesn't work in an interconnected world, nor do things outside the US have no effect on us here. There is no option to withdraw from the globalized world, either, because of how supply chains work.
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DarthOne
☦️
On the contrary, Ukraine should never have been dumb enough to give up its nukes back in 1994. Nukes are, unfortunately, the great equalizer in this day and age when it comes to allowing less powerful nations to protect themselves and their interests. Never mind that the 1994 agreement isn't legally binding and its not like the US and other nations haven't gone back on their word beforehand. Realpolitic is a bitch, unfortunately.
And I wasn't aware that not wanting to risk the horrors of nuclear war on the grounds of 'trust us bro, Russia's nuclear arsenal doesn't all work now, source, I probably made it up- the US intelligence service' makes me 'pro Russian'.
Or are you really holding a grudge over those times I went looking for a news source outside of the MSM's talking points and got it wrong on occasion? That is, something not relevant to my post that started this particular conversation and that happened months ago. And that on more then one occasion i backed down on and admitted I was wrong about? Because you are damn petty.
Also the whole 'Ukraine is a rape victim' metaphor is just tiresome. You're trying to get an emotional response out of people and its just annoying. You really come across as no different then the 'Russia is Thanos, NATO are the Avengers' bug-men nonsense I see on twitter. So please stop.
Not at this exact millisecond, no. Doesn't mean work can't be done to fix it and reduce it given time.
Which also raises a question- what does Ukraine give the USA that we can't get from somewhere else? Besides the opportunity for our pollical overlords to reenact the Cold War with Russia and China?
mrttao
Well-known member
Bacle is one of the people in here that wants a nuclear war with Russia because they believe that we will "win the nuclear war" because the Russian arsenal mostly broke down over the years from lack of maintainence. Several people were telling me how realistically, only 2-3 nukes will successfully explode over USA cities while Russia would be entirely glassed by USA's amazing well functioning nuclear aresenal.
read the page before and after this post
Russia(gate/bot) - Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion
And you don't see Russia responding to any of this by placing its own nukes in Cuba and/or Venezuela? I don't think either nation is likely to want to let them do that; neither Maduro or whoever is in charge in Cuba now want to risk drawing the ire such an action would take. Remember, Brazil...
www.the-sietch.com
I think Russia should be more afraid of US then we are of them.
Our nukes work, our economy is bigger, we have more people and our industry is better, and the Russian navy is laughable compared to ours. And quite frankly Russia has been fucking with us ever since the Czars died with a lot of the woke shit were currently dealing with being their fault.
So yeah I'm willing to back a Proxy war to eat up as much of Russias weapon stockpiles and kill off their ability to ever be a great power ever again. They did much the same to us so I'm not exactly going to feel a lot of sympathy for them.
You think I only am taking from 'mainstream' sources, when what I am doing is using the research skills I acquired during college to understand how to cross-reference material, and also look at foreign sources too.
Where as just because someone is right about some parts of the domestic stuff (Posobiec or Rand Paul, f/x) does not mean they are right about foreign politics.
The Neo-cons were right about Russia, time has proven that.
You know what else is realpolitik; Russia won't stop with Ukraine if they get to keep anything they have tried to take, and the Russian's themselves admit Ukraine was 'just a first step'.
Ukraine capitulating to Russia increases the threat of nuclear war in the long term, it does not decrease it at all, is what you don't seem to get, Darth.
Your behavior and willful ignorance on this topic is a continuing thing, and you've admitted to being wrong on shit a lot when people start piling evidence on you most of the time.
It's not petty when you continue to do the same shit repeatedly, and don't seem to learn who might be yanking your chain or is a grifter riding Trump's coattails.
'Tiresome'...you find the truth tiresome when it doesn't conform to the Tard-Right narrative on Russia and Ukraine.
You're just a RIght-Wing NPC, a ironic mirror and proof the horseshoe theory of politics is real.
At currently, we only have one fucking planet Darth, there are hard limits on how much the US can pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist when it's inconvenient to some in the US.
This war has proved that like nothing else, and the Armenia and Azri conflict confirms it too. The old grudges and old world blood that was kept in check by Soviet nuclear power is unsticking, history is moving again, and the US is part of that world too now, whether we like it or not. And you seem to forget the Serbs have been more twitch that usual lately too.
If you don't want US blood spilled for other nations, invest in the arms industry and transport groups to make sure we can arms our friends to the point we don't need to do a lot of fighting and dying ourselves.
We can invest treausre out in arming our friends in the world and make some profit, jobs, and innovaiton at home.
Or!
We can invest blood out there when shit falls apart and our friends don't have enough guns and bombs of their own or ships to keep their sea lanes open.
There really isn't a third option that doesn't involve a natural disaster on a global scale. Yellowstone/Campe Flegre or a Carrington event, a 10.0 under Cali, or an unseen meteor deciding to rearrainge a nation or 5, rendering military affairs secondary to food production/rebuilding domestic infrastructure in multiple nations due to ash clouds/EMP/lahars.
The Cold War never ended on the other side, that should be obvious from Russia's behavior (and the CCP's as well), and your unwillingness to deal with this fact is the problem with you view here, and why you keep believing grifters and taking what Russia says at face value. The CCP and Putin's Russia are just the ghosts of Imperial Russia and Imperial China wearing new masks, and this time there is a power equal to them that they cannot invade in a ground war.
Ukraine doesn't have to 'give' us some unique resource to be worth aiding with as many guns and missiles as they need to kick Russia off their land, and it's not US troops fighting and dying over there either. Biden slow rolling F-16s and ATACMs has resulted in so many needless deaths on the Ukrainian side, and still think he is a mess doemstically who needs to go, so don't pretend I somehow now think the Dems or Biden are 'good guys' even when it comes to the Ukraine issue.
The only foreigners fighting for Ukraine are people who chose to be there, where as Russia seems to be using human trafficking networks to import unwilling/tricked grunts from places like Cuba and Africa.
And it's like you forget most of the woke shit we are fighting to day are the result of actions by Russia to push agents into US institutions over the decades.
We cannot defeat the Woke rot till we deal with their puppet masters in Moscow and Beijing, how do you not get that?
After traveling to America and Canada, Zelensky made a stop in Ireland meeting with leadership there as well as Sudan's "transitional" President Abdel Fattah al-Burhan and apparently discussed Russian/Wagner activities in Sudan among other topics.
Largo
Well-known member
Realpolitik is a bitch? Okay, sure. Then the US will throw Russia out of Ukraine just because. We're strong, they're weak, we'll do it because we can.
Or what, is Russia the only country that gets to use Realpolitik to justify its actions?
Blasterbot
Well-known member
at least you would be being honest about the reasons then.
Poe
Well-known member
We're being honest now. 50-60% of the country believes backing Ukraine is the moral thing to do and another 20% think it's the best geopolitical move. In actual democracies there are different groups with different interests and in this regard they're all pretty honest about those.
mrttao
Well-known member
realpolitic is the approach of conducting diplomacy based on pragmatic policies rather than than idealogy.
the realpolitic would be "we will do X because it will gain us Y at a minor cost A".
Doing something for no reason is not realpolitik
Where are you getting this number from?
Even CNN admits that the majority of american's oppose it.
> August 4, 2023
I did find though a recent poll claiming what you said...
the poll was conducted by Ukrainian organization called Razom who claimed that according to their polling most americans support further support.
Poll: Majority of Americans support continued aid for Ukraine
A new poll released by Ukrainian grassroots organization Razom has recorded 63% of respondents in the U.S. expressing support for continued military aid to Ukraine.
Poe
Well-known member
There's a different between people wanting to support Ukraine and wanting to financially support them with everything we can indefinitely. You're right the latter is probably smaller than half, though even your first source puts it at nearly that (48%.). My point wasn't the exact numbers anyway, more that the politicians, vested interests and the voters that elect them are extremely honest about why said support exists.realpolitic is the approach of conducting diplomacy based on pragmatic policies rather than than idealogy.
the realpolitic would be "we will do X because it will gain us Y at a minor cost A".
Doing something for no reason is not realpolitik
Where are you getting this number from?
Even CNN admits that the majority of american's oppose it.
> August 4, 2023
I did find though a recent poll claiming what you said...
the poll was conducted by Ukrainian organization called Razom who claimed that according to their polling most americans support further support.
Poll: Majority of Americans support continued aid for Ukraine
A new poll released by Ukrainian grassroots organization Razom has recorded 63% of respondents in the U.S. expressing support for continued military aid to Ukraine.news.yahoo.com