Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Politics Thread Mk. 2

[Bacle]

@Terthna, if you are truly that worried about your personal safety, I strongly recommend you get acquainted with local law enforcement in your area, start reading on all laws concerning self-defense in your area, read up on self defense and take self defense courses, take a good hard look at purchasing firearms for self defense and decide what you want, and purchase them, and last but certainly not least, apply for a CCW (Concealed Carry Permit) and be sure to know EXACTLY what all laws concerning self defense with yourself and home is. Also, if you do apply for CCW, consider insurance through the USCCA.

If nothing else, it will hopefully let you sleep better.

You seem to not realize that 'local law enforcement' may be the people Terthna is afraid with be tasked with the 'homefront' and dealing with people those in power in DC do not like using war-time powers such as martial law and the various ways DC and local govs can ignore the Constitution using 'war-time emergency' as an excuse.

And all we have to do to see why these fears are legit is in how cops and regulatory officials acted during the Wu Flu; we saw very direct evidence most LEO's put their paymasters orders and pensions above the Constitution 90% of the time, if they can get away with it under 'emergency measures'.

Edit: In news actually related to Russia's invasion:


Mining the withdrawal routes of your own forces is a new one; guess the relationship between Wagner and the Russian MoD is getting even worse.

 

[Tiamat]

You seem to not realize that 'local law enforcement' may be the people Terthna is afraid with be tasked with the 'homefront' and dealing with people those in power in DC do not like using war-time powers such as martial law and the various ways DC and local govs can ignore the Constitution using 'war-time emergency' as an excuse.

And all we have to do to see why these fears are legit is in how cops and regulatory officials acted during the Wu Flu; we saw very direct evidence most LEO's put their paymasters orders and pensions above the Constitution 90% of the time, if they can get away with it under 'emergency measures'.

Edit: In news actually related to Russia's invasion:


Mining the withdrawal routes of your own forces is a new one; guess the relationship between Wagner and the Russian MoD is getting even worse.

Well, I can only speak for law enforcement around here where I live, and A: they weren't shutting down any businesses or churches, and B: when told there might be a new gun law in regards to braces (which is currently in litigation) that they might be expected to enforce, the cops just laughed and found it utterly ridiculous.

 

[Bacle]

Well, I can only speak for law enforcement around here where I live, and A: they weren't shutting down any businesses or churches, and B: when told there might be a new gun law in regards to braces (which is currently in litigation) that they might be expected to enforce, the cops just laughed and found it utterly ridiculous.

Yeah, and unless I'm wrong/misremembering, Terthna lives in Washington state, and do we need to dig up all the excess of blue state cops during the Wu Flu to get the picture.

I mean, that is the same state that let CHAZ be a thing.

 

[Tiamat]

Yeah, and unless I'm wrong/misremembering, Terthna lives in Washington state, and do we need to dig up all the excess of blue state cops during the Wu Flu to get the picture.

I mean, that is the same state that let CHAZ be a thing.

Leave Washington then. Seriously.

 

[Zachowon]

But basically, giving up on your country when it has been attacked is a horrid thing.

 

[Bacle]

Leave Washington then. Seriously.

Not that easy, not by a long shot, and this really is cope that doesn't deal with reality; pretty sure Terthna also has family situations which mean leaving would be difficult as well.

The idea that people can just pick-up and move to more politically favorable locations is kinda Right Wing cope for the fact that many Right Wingers do not actually do so because of finances and practical realities, while the Left is able to leverage a more...mobile-friendly social and economic paradigm with remote work and a DNC willing to pay people to move to places to run in elections or shift voting patterns.

"Just move" isn't an option for a lot of people, and the Right needs to understand this, instead of expecting people to just be able to 'leave' Blue areas at will.

But basically, giving up on your country when it has been attacked is a horrid thing.

You seem to forget many people already view us as living in a post-Constitutional banana republic, and thus do not view the current US gov as worth dying to protect, regardless of treaties or agreements made without the current public's approval or consent.

Also, expecting that a CCP move on Taiwan to result in war-time powers being given out by DC to local govs, and attendant abuses via said powers, on the homefront is hardly unreasonable.

You want a 'horrid thing', how about looking at the abuses of power that led to the current social situation, and/or the DoD's homefront actions against those who do not go along with it's narrative during a conflict; protesting Veitnam gave us a prime example, Kent State ring a bell.

Also, you seem to forget the first bombing raid the USAAF carried out was against it's own citizens during the Tulsa Riots sparked by the KKK attacking black neighborhoods/businesses.

The Bombing of Tulsa - HistoricWings.com :: A Magazine for Aviators, Pilots and Adventurers

Published on February 27, 2017 By Thomas Van Hare On the morning of June 1, 1921, the Ku Klux Klan and the white population of Tulsa made their move. At the sound of three blasts from a siren, they stormed the city's wealthy African-American district of Greenwood. The defending African-American...

fly.historicwings.com

The US military literally was air support for a KKK mob, and you are surprised when people are suspicious of the DoD's narrative of things and their power over civies in war-time conditions. This doesn't even touch the DoD's actions under the Wu Flu or it's actions against Trump's orders.

You want people to feel their country is worth defending again, stop expecting people to ignore domestic political strife just because a foreign power does something, and stop expecting DoD motard mindset and narratives about the nation to be applicable to most of the US population.

 

[Zachowon]

Not that easy, not by a long shot, and this really is cope that doesn't deal with reality; pretty sure Terthna also has family situations which mean leaving would be difficult as well.

The idea that people can just pick-up and move to more politically favorable locations is kinda Right Wing cope for the fact that many Right Wingers do not actually do so because of finances and practical realities, while the Left is able to leverage a more...mobile-friendly social and economic paradigm with remote work and a DNC willing to pay people to move to places to run in elections or shift voting patterns.

"Just move" isn't an option for a lot of people, and the Right needs to understand this, instead of expecting people to just be able to 'leave' Blue areas at will.

You seem to forget many people already view us as living in a post-Constitutional banana republic, and thus do not view the current US gov as worth dying to protect, regardless of treaties or agreements made without the current public's approval or consent.

Also, expecting that a CCP move on Taiwan to result in war-time powers being given out by DC to local govs, and attendant abuses via said powers, on the homefront is hardly unreasonable.

You want a 'horrid thing', how about looking at the abuses of power that led to the current social situation, and/or the DoD's homefront actions against those who do not go along with it's narrative during a conflict; protesting Veitnam gave us a prime example, Kent State ring a bell.

Also, you seem to forget the first bombing raid the USAAF carried out was against it's own citizens during the Tulsa Riots sparked by the KKK attacking black neighborhoods/businesses.

The Bombing of Tulsa - HistoricWings.com :: A Magazine for Aviators, Pilots and Adventurers

Published on February 27, 2017 By Thomas Van Hare On the morning of June 1, 1921, the Ku Klux Klan and the white population of Tulsa made their move. At the sound of three blasts from a siren, they stormed the city's wealthy African-American district of Greenwood. The defending African-American...

fly.historicwings.com

The US military literally was air support for a KKK mob, and you are surprised when people are suspicious of the DoD's narrative of things and their power over civies in war-time conditions. This doesn't even touch the DoD's actions under the Wu Flu or it's actions against Trump's orders.

You want people to feel their country is worth defending again, stop expecting people to ignore domestic political strife just because a foreign power does something, and stop expecting DoD motard mindset and narratives about the nation to be applicable to most of the US population.

Bacle.
If US civilians are dying because of Russian missile strikes on US Soil.
The military will not care about domestic issues as we will be loading up on ships and boats heading towards Europe.
If Guam or US citizens are killed or attacked by China during an invasion of Taiwan?
We won't be dealing with anything local, we would be all hands.
Because a war on that scale leaves no mistakes back home.

But you will never truly understand what the military will do.

 

[Bacle]

Bacle.
If US civilians are dying because of Russian missile strikes on US Soil.
The military will not care about domestic issues as we will be loading up on ships and boats heading towards Europe.

Eh, maybe; more likely the Air Force and Navy are conducting missile strikes while the Army is just playing air defense over allied soil, not moving in on the ground unless it's to reclaim allied territory.

The future of the Army is as a massive air defense corp with the way tech is going these days.

If Guam or US citizens are killed or attacked by China during an invasion of Taiwan?
We won't be dealing with anything local, we would be all hands.

All volunteer hands, maybe; do not count on the homefront being friendly if people begin to be abused by war-time powers/a draft is enacted.

And I know you expect any major fight/conflict to end up with a draft to make up the bodies, which you know would also be a massive social upheaval trigger domestically.

Because a war on that scale leaves no mistakes back home.

No, war on that scale just means mistakes at home are papered over or hidden behind classified labels, while Constitutional protections and rights are effectively ignored at will by domestic authorities.

But you will never truly understand what the military will do.

Oh I do understand, I just don't echo the motard narrative the DoD likes to push and am perfectly willing to say when the emperor and his generals have no clothes.

 

[DarthOne]

 

[Terthna]

Not that easy, not by a long shot, and this really is cope that doesn't deal with reality; pretty sure Terthna also has family situations which mean leaving would be difficult as well.

The idea that people can just pick-up and move to more politically favorable locations is kinda Right Wing cope for the fact that many Right Wingers do not actually do so because of finances and practical realities, while the Left is able to leverage a more...mobile-friendly social and economic paradigm with remote work and a DNC willing to pay people to move to places to run in elections or shift voting patterns.

"Just move" isn't an option for a lot of people, and the Right needs to understand this, instead of expecting people to just be able to 'leave' Blue areas at will.

You seem to forget many people already view us as living in a post-Constitutional banana republic, and thus do not view the current US gov as worth dying to protect, regardless of treaties or agreements made without the current public's approval or consent.

Also, expecting that a CCP move on Taiwan to result in war-time powers being given out by DC to local govs, and attendant abuses via said powers, on the homefront is hardly unreasonable.

You want a 'horrid thing', how about looking at the abuses of power that led to the current social situation, and/or the DoD's homefront actions against those who do not go along with it's narrative during a conflict; protesting Veitnam gave us a prime example, Kent State ring a bell.

Also, you seem to forget the first bombing raid the USAAF carried out was against it's own citizens during the Tulsa Riots sparked by the KKK attacking black neighborhoods/businesses.

The Bombing of Tulsa - HistoricWings.com :: A Magazine for Aviators, Pilots and Adventurers

Published on February 27, 2017 By Thomas Van Hare On the morning of June 1, 1921, the Ku Klux Klan and the white population of Tulsa made their move. At the sound of three blasts from a siren, they stormed the city's wealthy African-American district of Greenwood. The defending African-American...

fly.historicwings.com

The US military literally was air support for a KKK mob, and you are surprised when people are suspicious of the DoD's narrative of things and their power over civies in war-time conditions. This doesn't even touch the DoD's actions under the Wu Flu or it's actions against Trump's orders.

You want people to feel their country is worth defending again, stop expecting people to ignore domestic political strife just because a foreign power does something, and stop expecting DoD motard mindset and narratives about the nation to be applicable to most of the US population.

I'm basically my parents' live-in home care provider; my father has Parkinson's and needs a walker to get around, while my mother has various pain issues that causes her to spend most of the day in bed, as well as siroccos of the liver which requires a special low sodium and low sugar diet. If I wasn't here, they'd probably both be dead within a month; and they're not willing to move, not just because of the physical ordeal it would be, but also because it would mean moving away from my younger brother who has severe autism and is in local state care.

That said, I basically agree with everything you said; the establishment has made it perfectly clear what their plans for us are, and I have no intention of turning my back to them to face the Russians or the Chinese or whomever, just so that they can take the opportunity to stab me in the back.

 

[History Learner]

 

[Bacle]

I'm basically my parents' live-in home care provider; my father has Parkinson's and needs a walker to get around, while my mother has various pain issues that causes her to spend most of the day in bed, as well as siroccos of the liver which requires a special low sodium and low sugar diet. If I wasn't here, they'd probably both be dead within a month; and they're not willing to move, not just because of the physical ordeal it would be, but also because it would mean moving away from my younger brother who has severe autism and is in local state care.

That said, I basically agree with everything you said; the establishment has made it perfectly clear what their plans for us are, and I have no intention of turning my back to them to face the Russians or the Chinese or whomever, just so that they can take the opportunity to stab me in the back.

The idea people would actually put effort into helping their parents in old age and ill health, in blue areas as well as red areas, seems to fly past a lot of people on the Right. It's like if you live in a blue area, they expect you are there by choice, and not obligation/consideration for others.

I understand your situation, and think you are doing your best to make the best of your situation.

 

[Zachowon]

Summary?

Boo hoo for the country that is rum by greens who want ro destroy thier own country.
It's thier own damn fault for relying on Russia.

 

[AmosTrask]

Boo hoo for the country that is rum by greens who want ro destroy thier own country.

Err. . . What now?
Oh. Run by greens who want to destroy their own country. Ehh. I'd rather deal with a Greenie than a Russian. A Green government will follow through with a contract. Russia will fuck you over guaranteed. It's just a shame Germany ignored all of us when we warned them not to get in bed with Russia and China.

 

[Captain X]

Summary?

Lindsey Graham is a slimy uniparty hack who is undermining support for aiding Ukraine because he can't help but say shit that makes it obvious that he thinks of the Ukrainians as fodder, and he's been doing it for a long time.

 

[Bacle]

Lindsey Graham is a slimy uniparty hack who is undermining support for aiding Ukraine because he can't help but say shit that makes it obvious that he thinks of the Ukrainians as fodder, and he's been doing it for a long time.

Eh, Graham is someone who isn't wrong in how he has approached this situation, and frankly he's not wrong that helping Ukraine is some of the most justified international spending the US has done in decades.

Ukraine's shown Russia to be a paper-tiger instead of the 'world's 2nd army', we are giving them kit from the 80s/90s that we would have had to pay to get rid of/demil, instead of it being used for it's original intended purpose; killing commies/Russians.

Graham just openly said what a lot of people already felt about spending money to help Ukraine, and not just in DC or the elite either. Very few people in the US care how many Russians die attacking Ukraine, and Ukrainians know either they fight to free themselves from Moscow's designs, or they die under Moscow's boot.

And nothing Graham said makes it seem like he considers Ukrainians fodder; that was deceptive editing and taking it all as 'fight to the last Ukrainian' as the goal, instead of the feeling he gets from Ukraine's determination.

 

[AmosTrask]

Eh, Graham is someone who isn't wrong in how he has approached this situation, and frankly he's not wrong that helping Ukraine is some of the most justified international spending the US has done in decades.

Ukraine's shown Russia to be a paper-tiger instead of the 'world's 2nd army', we are giving them kit from the 80s/90s that we would have had to pay to get rid of/demil, instead of it being used for it's original intended purpose; killing commies/Russians.

Graham just openly said what a lot of people already felt about spending money to help Ukraine, and not just in DC or the elite either. Very few people in the US care how many Russians die attacking Ukraine, and Ukrainians know either they fight to free themselves from Moscow's designs, or they die under Moscow's boot.

And nothing Graham said makes it seem like he considers Ukrainians fodder; that was deceptive editing and taking it all as 'fight to the last Ukrainian' as the goal, instead of the feeling he gets from Ukraine's determination.

Correct me if I am wrong. Is it not cheaper to ship your old gear than stripping it and demilitarizing it? The US generally leaves tons upon tons of military gear and ammunition behind because it's too expensive to ship home and demil. They were selling military US assault rifles 1100 USD per ton on the grey market after the first Gulf War for example.

I saw a older report your inspector general published the other day that US companies were price gouging the military. For example Boeing produced a hydraulic pump for 400 USD parts and labor but charged NASA and USAF 10,000 USD for it. Another case where auditors found Raytheon overcharged for missiles and actually owed the military one year's production worth of cruise missiles.

 

[DarthOne]

Correct me if I am wrong. Is it not cheaper to ship your old gear than stripping it and demilitarizing it? The US generally leaves tons upon tons of military gear and ammunition behind because it's too expensive to ship home and demil. They were selling military US assault rifles 1100 USD per ton on the grey market after the first Gulf War for example.

I saw a older report your inspector general published the other day that US companies were price gouging the military. For example Boeing produced a hydraulic pump for 400 USD parts and labor but charged NASA and USAF 10,000 USD for it. Another case where auditors found Raytheon overcharged for missiles and actually owed the military one year's production worth of cruise missiles.

Why on earth is that the case? Also, why would they need to demilitarize the weapons they were just using instead of sticking them in storage or something until they’re needed again?

 

[Emperor Tippy]

Why on earth is that the case? Also, why would they need to demilitarize the weapons they were just using instead of sticking them in storage or something until they’re needed again?

Because demilitarizing gear involves things like disassembling them to remove the explosives and then safely disposing of the explosives.

And you can only store weapons for so long before the error rate becomes unacceptable. Electronics go bad, explosives degrade, etc.

Or you take everything in the warehouse, load it onto shipping pallets, and send it off to Ukraine. Then it becomes Ukraine's problem if an issue arises and they get to dispose of the weapons on the battlefield with the press of a button.

Most of the stuff the US is sending is also, by US standards, multiple generations obsolescent if not outright obsolete. Most of what the US is sending to Ukraine is Cold War/First Gulf War surplus.

It's also a Pentagon funding trick. The Pentagon sends $30 billion worth of obsolescent junk slated for destruction to Ukraine and accounts for it at a value comparable to when it was brand new while also drawing down all of the DoD's surplus emergency stockpiles. Then they go to Congress and say that the stockpiles are dangerously low and need refilling and the Pentagon sent $30 billion to Ukraine so could Congress please give them $30 billion for refilling those stockpiles? Then the money gets spent to buy modern, current generation, replacements for the stockpiles.

 

[AmosTrask]

Exactly. I've spotted Vietnam era second generation M16 in Ukrainian photos. Although I can't be sure those were US Aid or private collector's pieces.