Russia-Ukraine War Politics Thread Mk. 2

[Marduk]

Damn... In 1992, good prediction.

Your correct that that isn't Ukraines fault.

But the fact is those pre exiting domestic problems matter, and we as a country spent more then 30 years handling international stuff over domestic needs. All of that is coming home to roost. Is it fair No it isnt. If you want people to support Ukraine your going to have to give them shit in return for that support.

It doesn't have to be fincial, an internet bill of rights that keeps corperate america from censoring political speech in exchange for Ukraine support would be a nice carrot. But if you keep telling people who have sacerficed for a cause for 20 plus years with no reward to sacerfice more and then get upset when they tell you they want something in return?

Then your simply going to be ignored and not only that people will pull support out of shear spite. I am telling you this as a friend find a way to make what you want in other peoples interests and your going to be more likely to get what you want.

The problem with that is that this is a sucker's bet. It's like a domestic argument, and the wife starts breaking plates, so the husband starts to break glasses and will continue as long as she doesn't stop breaking plates.
You're gonna end up with a lot of broken glasses and plates, it's not a solution, as it assumes Democrats actually care about foreign policy interests, while they only care about looking as if they care about foreign policy interests, which is a subtle but important difference.
If you want to be spiteful, do it about something Democrats actually care about in own interest, which is power and ideological domination.

 

[Bacle]

Your correct that that isn't Ukraines fault.

But the fact is those pre exiting domestic problems matter, and we as a country spent more then 30 years handling international stuff over domestic needs. All of that is coming home to roost. Is it fair No it isnt. If you want people to support Ukraine your going to have to give them shit in return for that support.

It doesn't have to be fincial, an internet bill of rights that keeps corperate america from censoring political speech in exchange for Ukraine support would be a nice carrot. But if you keep telling people who have sacerficed for a cause for 20 plus years with no reward to sacerfice more and then get upset when they tell you they want something in return?

Then your simply going to be ignored and not only that people will pull support out of shear spite. I am telling you this as a friend find a way to make what you want in other peoples interests and your going to be more likely to get what you want.

You mistakenly act like supporting Ukraine is asking the US public to 'sacrifice' anything, which it simply is not.

You cannot pay teacher in HIMARs, you cannot pay the postman in 155mm shells, and you cannot pave roads with F-16s. Much of the aid money going to Ukraine comes back to the US to pay for the supplies Ukraine needs, so it's not like it really 'leaves' the US either.

The fact people like you think using Ukraine as a 'lever' to get domestic shit done is no less atrocious than the Dems holding the border open while pretending Biden needs new powers to close it.

Also, what we get in return for supporting Ukraine is not having to deal with Russia making a go at NATO directly, deterring the CCP from moving on Taiwan, and thus not having to risk the lives of US troops to directly confront either the CCP or Russia.

When people cannot accept this, and instead want to cut aid to Ukraine simply to spite people for daring to call out the logical fallacies in the desire to cut aid to Ukraine/support Russia, they give me daily reminders why the GOP is fucking incompetent at basic political messaging and foreign affairs and why I am glad I have not put an R next to my name.

Edit: The idea that the US cannot fix our own domestic issues so long as we pay any attention to foreign issues is one of the worst mindbugs of the Right.

 

[Bigking321]

I'm seeing news stories saying that Ukraine is confirming Russias claim that that guy who died in prison died of a unexpected blood clot.

Anyone else seeing stories about it?

Potential clot shot connection? I heard the guy was fully vaxxed and boosted. And he was only... 47 right?

 

[mrttao]

Damn... In 1992, good prediction.

The problem with that is that this is a sucker's bet. It's like a domestic argument, and the wife starts breaking plates, so the husband starts to break glasses and will continue as long as she doesn't stop breaking plates.
You're gonna end up with a lot of broken glasses and plates, it's not a solution, as it assumes Democrats actually care about foreign policy interests, while they only care about looking as if they care about foreign policy interests, which is a subtle but important difference.
If you want to be spiteful, do it about something Democrats actually care about in own interest, which is power and ideological domination.

>> Cherico : Here is how you get more support for your pet cause
> I disagree, here is my stupid wrong analogy trying to bullying you into supporting my pet cause

@Cherico you are pissing in the wind. The neocons won't listen.

 

[Cherico]

You mistakenly act like supporting Ukraine is asking the US public to 'sacrifice' anything, which it simply is not.

You cannot pay teacher in HIMARs, you cannot pay the postman in 155mm shells, and you cannot pave roads with F-16s. Much of the aid money going to Ukraine comes back to the US to pay for the supplies Ukraine needs, so it's not like it really 'leaves' the US either.

The fact people like you think using Ukraine as a 'lever' to get domestic shit done is no less atrocious than the Dems holding the border open while pretending Biden needs new powers to close it.

Also, what we get in return for supporting Ukraine is not having to deal with Russia making a go at NATO directly, deterring the CCP from moving on Taiwan, and thus not having to risk the lives of US troops to directly confront either the CCP or Russia.

When people cannot accept this, and instead want to cut aid to Ukraine simply to spite people for daring to call out the logical fallacies in the desire to cut aid to Ukraine/support Russia, they give me daily reminders why the GOP is fucking incompetent at basic political messaging and foreign affairs and why I am glad I have not put an R next to my name.

Edit: The idea that the US cannot fix our own domestic issues so long as we pay any attention to foreign issues is one of the worst mindbugs of the Right.

It is sacraficing stuff mate. Some one has to make and pay for HIMARs for 155 chells and F-16s and the jobs from making those things are concentrated in small area's of the country because they require very specialized skills to make. As for Russia the problem with Russia is that the member states of the EU decided to spend the war on terror acting like snobby assholes.

They treated themselves like high minded philopher kings and the american people like Roman legionares that needed to be civilized. Now its true Ukraine did not act as such but 20 fucking years of that kind of behavior in what we considered to be a war of rightous vengence leaves a bad taste in ones mouth. Defending europe is thus a much harder sell because their leadership spent litteral decades acting like cunts.

Politics is the art of dealing with things how they are and not how you wish them to be, and the fact is in order to get what you want you will have to sweeten the pot. Like I said there are a whole lot of measures that do not cost money that would act as a fair exchange.

Most of middle america would be fine with a bill that exchanges massive aid for Ukraine with an internet bill of rights that protects people from big tech censorship. Make the deals make it worth it and you will get the support you want for your crusade.

 

[Bacle]

It is sacraficing stuff mate. Some one has to make and pay for HIMARs for 155 chells and F-16s and the jobs from making those things are concentrated in small area's of the country because they require very specialized skills to make.

Those munitions lines and gear production lines cover more than 40 states, in the latest iteration of the aid bill, so it's hardly 'concentrated in small areas', Texas alone is starting 3 new 155mm production lines', and the aid money does pay for those munitions.

Arty production lines are also rather simple, at least the metallurgical side, and you can cast shell bodies and leave them in storage for years before putting any explosive in them.

The aid going to Ukraine is not a 'sacrifice', and the fact some people think it is mostly comes down to ignorance, believing lies, and the willful twisting of certain narratives by grifters in the GOP.

As for Russia the problem with Russia is that the member states of the EU decided to spend the war on terror acting like snobby assholes.

Again, not Ukraine's fault, and Ukraine did send troops to help us in Iraq and A-stan, despite not being in NATO.

They treated themselves like high minded philopher kings and the american people like Roman legionares that needed to be civilized. Now its true Ukraine did not act as such but 20 fucking years of that kind of behavior in what we considered to be a war of rightous vengence leaves a bad taste in ones mouth. Defending europe is thus a much harder sell because their leadership spent litteral decades acting like cunts.

Again, you even acknowledge that this is not Ukraine's fault, nor was Ukraine one of the nations shitting on the US during the GWOT.

Maybe spend time trying to fight the false narratives about Ukraine's situation, instead of just expecting people to humor them regardless of factual basis.

Politics is the art of dealing with things how they are and not how you wish them to be, and the fact is in order to get what you want you will have to sweeten the pot. Like I said there are a whole lot of measures that do not cost money that would act as a fair exchange.

This isn't about money, it's about people being fed lies and twisted narratives about the cost of supporting Ukraine.

Maybe fight those lies, instead of humoring and propagating them, just because some fools in the GOP base don't want to look past the latest grift by clickbait artists who rode in on Trump coattails.

Stop acting like the grift is legit, and start fighting back against the false narratives.

Most of middle america would be fine with a bill that exchanges massive aid for Ukraine with an internet bill of rights that protects people from big tech censorship. Make the deals make it worth it and you will get the support you want for your crusade.

Ukraine cannot fucking do a damn thing to make that happen, the censorship issues have nothing to do with what is happening to Ukraine, and this is a foolish idea that doesn't work outside pipedreams.

Stop acting like Ukraine is some sort of bargaining chip for domestic gripes; there are other levers to pull that don't result in the loss of increasing amounts of Ukrainian lives.

 

[Cherico]

Those munitions lines and gear production lines cover more than 40 states, in the latest iteration of the aid bill, so it's hardly 'concentrated in small areas', Texas alone is starting 3 new 155mm production lines', and the aid money does pay for those munitions.

Arty production lines are also rather simple, at least the metallurgical side, and you can cast shell bodies and leave them in storage for years before putting any explosive in them.

The aid going to Ukraine is not a 'sacrifice', and the fact some people think it is mostly comes down to ignorance, believing lies, and the willful twisting of certain narratives by grifters in the GOP.

Again, not Ukraine's fault, and Ukraine did send troops to help us in Iraq and A-stan, despite not being in NATO.

Again, you even acknowledge that this is not Ukraine's fault, nor was Ukraine one of the nations shitting on the US during the GWOT.

Maybe spend time trying to fight the false narratives about Ukraine's situation, instead of just expecting people to humor them regardless of factual basis.

This isn't about money, it's about people being fed lies and twisted narratives about the cost of supporting Ukraine.

Maybe fight those lies, instead of humoring and propagating them, just because some fools in the GOP base don't want to look past the latest grift by clickbait artists who rode in on Trump coattails.

Stop acting like the grift is legit, and start fighting back against the false narratives.

Ukraine cannot fucking do a damn thing to make that happen, the censorship issues have nothing to do with what is happening to Ukraine, and this is a foolish idea that doesn't work outside pipedreams.

Stop acting like Ukraine is some sort of bargaining chip for domestic gripes; there are other levers to pull that don't result in the loss of increasing amounts of Ukrainian lives.

You are speaking to me as an idealist, I am explaining why the world is not ideal and giving you a path to making your dreams into reality. Lecturing people on morality is not going to work, because the democrats have firmly poisoned that well. That isn't your fault by the way. The progressives went insane and went on a decade plus cancel culture jihad that basically has burned people out on that argument. Thus appealing to morality just isn't going to work.

To be successful you must appeal to their self interest. And more defense industry jobs just isn't going to cut it my friend. I thus gave you a way to get what you want that has the minimum amount of fincial cost to yourself and others. You could even use fines against censorship loving tech bros to help fund this crusade.

I am trying to give you the tools for victory.

 

[AmosTrask]

Also I doubt the Natives are going to be big fans of all that.

Depends on the project and location. At least one is under a salmon hatchery and animal reserve so a complete no go.

 

[Marduk]

>> Cherico : Here is how you get more support for your pet cause
> I disagree, here is my stupid wrong analogy trying to bullying you into supporting my pet cause

@Cherico you are pissing in the wind. The neocons won't listen.

>>Marduk : Here is how democrats pretend they care a lot about Ukraine so that they can have something that is saleable to the public to compromise about and make a scene about it without really compromising on the stuff they really care about or even putting it up on debate
>Neocons bad, bullying, pet cause!!!
See, i too can be like this. Lay off the soundbites, this isn't a DNC convention.

It is sacraficing stuff mate. Some one has to make and pay for HIMARs for 155 chells and F-16s and the jobs from making those things are concentrated in small area's of the country because they require very specialized skills to make. As for Russia the problem with Russia is that the member states of the EU decided to spend the war on terror acting like snobby assholes.

What do you think the money would have went to if the war in Ukraine wasn't happening?
Remember, Biden and democrats are in charge. Probably some retarded race propaganda stuff and green scams. Why not have the government spend few hundreds more billions on subsidizing China's solar panel industry while at it, and you know this stuff would be hidden in some budget or omnibus bill that would have to go through eventually. It's much better if some of still not outsourced industry gets it, even if just to send it abroad, everything else is a profit beyond that.

Most of middle america would be fine with a bill that exchanges massive aid for Ukraine with an internet bill of rights that protects people from big tech censorship. Make the deals make it worth it and you will get the support you want for your crusade.

You don't get it. Democrats don't care if in the end USA gets a geopolitical victory or loss against DragonBear. If they do, they take the credit, if they don't, they blame GOP with its mindless opposition and get a smile from comrade Xi, win-win, managed decline. They aren't patriots and this stuff is above most of their heads anyway. This is why to those in the know democrat support of Ukraine in action (rather than word, media support is part of the trick) is moderate at best. It's just the most defensible position they could stake out in the media narrative (shame on much of GOP for falling to such op and acting contrarian), and so they make the debate all about it, with a side bonus that compromises in that department, even if big, will not really hurt them as much as they will pretend, while making the other side look bad due to how fringe and hard to defend position it allowed itself to be corralled into.

Either way, it's far better for them to argue about this than directly about any LGBT stuff, immigration stuff, censorship stuff, race stuff and so on. Even if they lose, they still win by not having to even put any of the above on the table - those are far less popular topics so compromises would be pushed more, and they would be far more painful due to hitting against own core activist base's demands.

 

[AmosTrask]

I'm seeing news stories saying that Ukraine is confirming Russias claim that that guy who died in prison died of a unexpected blood clot.

Anyone else seeing stories about it?

Potential clot shot connection? I heard the guy was fully vaxxed and boosted. And he was only... 47 right?

You mean Navalny? The one Putin had starved and tortured so much that in two years he aged 30 years and lost half his weight. The man moved into the Arctic Gulag infamously used by Stalin to kill prisoners by "natural causes." That guy?

You've just fallen for Russian propaganda. How in the hell and why would Ukraine be able to confirm either way? The FSB are not releasing the files, I'm pretty sure the body was cremated on the same day he died.

They aren't even letting the family claim his corpse nor could they since they fled Russia after several false arrests. FSB intimidation and rather obvious agents always following them. Navalny's family would also be killed if they returned to Russia.

 

[Bacle]

You are speaking to me as an idealist, I am explaining why the world is not ideal and giving you a path to making your dreams into reality. Lecturing people on morality is not going to work, because the democrats have firmly poisoned that well. That isn't your fault by the way. The progressives went insane and went on a decade plus cancel culture jihad that basically has burned people out on that argument. Thus appealing to morality just isn't going to work.

To be successful you must appeal to their self interest. And more defense industry jobs just isn't going to cut it my friend. I thus gave you a way to get what you want that has the minimum amount of fincial cost to yourself and others. You could even use fines against censorship loving tech bros to help fund this crusade.

I am trying to give you the tools for victory.

And I am telling you, as a realist, not an idealist, that the unicorn 'internet bill of rights', and other things not relate to Ukraine aid (like Gaza/Hamas 'aid' and Israel aid being tied to Ukraine's situation is dumb, I know you think so too), are not realistically on the table the way you wish they were, and are not even the thing holding up aid to Ukraine.

What is holding up aid to Ukraine is the lies and twisting of the situation by the grifters who rode in on Trump's coattails, as well as the Dems playing fuck fuck games with the border and pretending Biden needs new powers to handle things down there.

I would have thought living in CA as you do, border issues (which are actually in play and part of the Dems grift) would be a more 'realistic' issue to address than a unicorn 'internet bill of rights'.

I get wanting that document, and in other times I would support legislation putting such forward, but not at the current cost of Ukrainian lives while humoring the Dems games on illegal immigration.

The GOP has been self-owning on the issue of Ukraine because of the lies of grifters, more than anything else, and relying on a lot of it's base simply not having a real idea what is actually going on with regard to Ukraine. Trump has been...very hit and miss on Ukraine since leaving office; though he seems to like Zelensky and sold Ukraine Javelins, he's been saying he'd encourage Russian aggression toward 'delinquent' NATO members.

Watch the Zelensky interview, he says what the situation is on the ground for his nation for himself, and tell the skeptics to watch it, regardless of what they think of domestic issues.

All these issues you desire should be addressed on their own merits, not as leverage against each other in an election year, not at the cost of Ukrainian lives over the prospect of unrealistic domestic demands.

 

[Bigking321]

You've just fallen for Russian propaganda.

Calm down. Saying I've seen news stories about it and asking if others have isn't falling for Russian propaganda.

For all I know it could be true or it could be false. I just thought it was interesting.

If it is Russian propaganda then they are very impressive it seems since the person in Ukraine they interviewed and claim confirmed it is apparently Ukrainian intelligence chief Kyrylo Budanov.

I've done no research on this person but I assume he's a Ukrainian not a Russian spy. And I don't have any idea why a Ukrainian intelligence chief would agree with Russia about this if it wasn't the case.

Maybe it's some 4d chess thing I don't understand. Like Russia AND Ukraine hated the guy and are both lying about him being murdered.

 

[mrttao]

If it is Russian propaganda then they are very impressive it seems since the person in Ukraine they interviewed and claim confirmed it is apparently Ukrainian intelligence chief Kyrylo Budanov.

kek. don't you know, everything is russian propaganda / antivaxxer conspiracy theorists / misogyny / racism.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Sri Lanka is ending visa extensions for Russians (and Ukrainians) on their country which will affect 290,000 Russians and some 20,000 Ukrainians. This comes in the wake of criticism of Russian "tourists" abusing hospitality. A local paper recently reported a Russian owned Cafe Opening Event as being "Whites Only."

'White-Only Party' – Sri Lanka decided to tighten the visa regime for Russians, but backs down

The Sri Lankan Immigration Department has decided to stop extending visas to Russians free of charge. This came after an incident involving a "white-only" | The Eastern Herald

easternherald.com

 

[Buba]

. A local paper recently reported a Russian owned Cafe Opening Event as being "Whites Only."

A "soft" version of Darwin Award/death by cop ...

 

[Marduk]

I'm seeing news stories saying that Ukraine is confirming Russias claim that that guy who died in prison died of a unexpected blood clot.

Anyone else seeing stories about it?

Potential clot shot connection? I heard the guy was fully vaxxed and boosted. And he was only... 47 right?

I think you are missing some pieces of the puzzle.
One is the sense of humor of an intelligence chief.
When he says that Navalny died of unexpected blood clot, he's not saying that he wasn't assassinated... He may well be describing the method and suggesting people to not question this part of the story, but question others, like why did he have such blood clots and why did one get loose in such a fatal way.
Ask a doctor if such a thing would not be impossible to arrange given total lack of medical ethics, practically unlimited access to any chemical agents and medicines, and total control over the victim's food supply.

Secondly, there was no love lost between Navalny and post-Maidan Ukrainian leadership. Many westerners don't know this part of the story, and project Navalny into some sort of liberal opposition savior figure of Russia, but he still was quite public about things such as that Crimea should go back to Russia, even if he would be less militant in how he would go about this than Putin.

 

[mrttao]

Sri Lanka is ending visa extensions for Russians (and Ukrainians) on their country which will affect 290,000 Russians and some 20,000 Ukrainians. This comes in the wake of criticism of Russian "tourists" abusing hospitality. A local paper recently reported a Russian owned Cafe Opening Event as being "Whites Only."

'White-Only Party' – Sri Lanka decided to tighten the visa regime for Russians, but backs down

The Sri Lankan Immigration Department has decided to stop extending visas to Russians free of charge. This came after an incident involving a "white-only" | The Eastern Herald

easternherald.com

> REEEEE
> RUSSIAN EVIL
> LOOK WE FOUND ONE SINGLE RUSSIAN WHO IS RACIS AGAINST BLACK PEPO
> REEEEE

typical leftoid rag

 

[Husky_Khan]

> REEEEE
> RUSSIAN EVIL
> LOOK WE FOUND ONE SINGLE RUSSIAN WHO IS RACIS AGAINST BLACK PEPO
> REEEEE

typical leftoid rag

Here's the original reportage AFAIK since I was unaware The Eastern Herald is a leftoid rag. I thought using a Punjabi Indian newspaper was good enough to pass muster on The Sietch.

Controversial ’white only’ party cancelled amid public outcry - Breaking News | Daily Mirror

A controversial ’white only’ themed party scheduled to take place on February 24 at a Russian run cafe in the south has been cancelled by its organizers following widespread public backlash. ..

www.dailymirror.lk

The Russian Embassy later stated the White only policy was in regards to White Clothing... which apparently wasn't communicated effectively by the business in question since they referenced skin color apparently inadvertently (along with other racial, facial and financial criteria etc).

Russian Embassy responds to controversial ‘white only’ party - Breaking News | Daily Mirror

The Russian Embassy in Colombo expressed serious concern over the recent controversial night party planned in Unawatuna on February 24, 2024, which was subsequently called off following public outcry. ..

www.dailymirror.lk

The Russian Embassy later stated it condemns all forms of racial discrimination and nationalism.

 

[Skallagrim]

they referenced skin color apparently inadvertently (along with other racial, facial and financial criteria etc).

"We only meant that the party was for white people wearing white clothing! You know, like white robes... white pointy hats... that sort of thing."

 

[Husky_Khan]

"We only meant that the party was for white people wearing white clothing! You know, like white robes... white pointy hats... that sort of thing."

Imagining a comedy skit advertising a white skin/white clothing party and most of the attendants are people of color trying to infiltrate the place and only out White Liberal SJWs doing the same thing.