Russia-Ukraine War Politics Thread Mk. 2

[LordsFire]

That's because I don't like propaganda consumed war mongers. It's you, not Ukraine, That I'm against.

Some of you can be smart reasonable people, but when it comes to this war, you just soak up propaganda and accuse anyone who disagrees with your narrative in any way, of supporting the other side.

If I was Pro Russia I'd just say I'm pro Russia. Why would I lie about it? I'm on a niche Sci fi board that's dedicated to free speech because I got shunned away from another board for daring to speak up about what I believe in. You think I give a fuck about hiding whether or not I'm pro Russia? I'll just tell you guys what I think.

But when it comes to Ukraine, you all act and think like leftists. If anyone goes against the narrative, they're pro Russia. Just like in lefty land, you're racist, exist, homophobic, etc for going against the narrative. Or if you say anything bad about the covid vax, you're an evil conspiracy theorists.

It's pathetic. You all act just like the leftists. If I was Pro Russia or any kind of -ist, I'd just tell everyone, because speaking my mind is WHY I'M HERE.

This argument would be more credible if you understood jack shit about warfighting, and stopped making straw-men arguments out of other people.

But if I assume that you actually believe what you're saying here, do you understand that your argument here basically devolves to 'I'm not in favor of Russia, I'm just too ignorant to understand what's actually going on?'

 

[LordsFire]

Look, @Rocinante, I'll try to give you the benefit of the doubt, and explain something very simple here.

There are, broadly speaking, three types of information sources on the war.

1. Western and Ukrainian media.
2. Russian and Russian-aligned media.
3. Open Source Intelligence.

I can understand skepticism of both 1 and 2. I have skepticism of 1, and complete disbelief in 2.

The thing about 3, is that some parts of 3 have put thousands of hours of work in to individually inspecting combat footage, paying money for satellite imaging to be taken to use as an information source, and they show their work so that others can check it if they want.

1. Gives wildly variable numbers pessimistic on Russian casualties, and only talks a moderate amount about Ukrainian casualties, giving an incomplete picture of them.
2. Gives absurd numbers on Ukrainian casualties, including repeated claims to have both destroyed more western equipment in certain categories than Ukraine even has, and also destroying some types of western equipment before it even arrived in Ukraine. They also grossly understate their own casualties.
3. Good sources in this category simply list what has been confirmed destroyed and where, with the explicit understanding 'this is just what is visually confirmed, and is an incomplete record.'


Sources in the third category show that the Ukrainian offensive over the last year saw roughly equal losses between the two sides of the conflict. The Russian losses in places like Avdivka and Bakhmut, however, have been absolutely catastrophic, with 10:1 or worse losses in heavy equipment and military vehicles suffered compared to the Ukrainians.


The way you post on this thread reflects an attitude that completely ignores source set 1, willingly believes source set 2, and completely ignores source set 3.

This is not the attitude of someone who is impartial on the conflict, this is not the attitude of someone that is familiar with how war is fought, this is not the attitude of someone who is familiar with the culture and historic performance of the Russian military, and military-industrial complex.

This is the attitude of someone who willingly absorbs Russian propaganda, and ignores anything that contradicts it.

If you're going to claim that is not the case, why should anyone believe you?

 

[Rocinante]

Look, @Rocinante, I'll try to give you the benefit of the doubt, and explain something very simple here.

There are, broadly speaking, three types of information sources on the war.

1. Western and Ukrainian media.
2. Russian and Russian-aligned media.
3. Open Source Intelligence.

I can understand skepticism of both 1 and 2. I have skepticism of 1, and complete disbelief in 2.

The thing about 3, is that some parts of 3 have put thousands of hours of work in to individually inspecting combat footage, paying money for satellite imaging to be taken to use as an information source, and they show their work so that others can check it if they want.

1. Gives wildly variable numbers pessimistic on Russian casualties, and only talks a moderate amount about Ukrainian casualties, giving an incomplete picture of them.
2. Gives absurd numbers on Ukrainian casualties, including repeated claims to have both destroyed more western equipment in certain categories than Ukraine even has, and also destroying some types of western equipment before it even arrived in Ukraine. They also grossly understate their own casualties.
3. Good sources in this category simply list what has been confirmed destroyed and where, with the explicit understanding 'this is just what is visually confirmed, and is an incomplete record.'


Sources in the third category show that the Ukrainian offensive over the last year saw roughly equal losses between the two sides of the conflict. The Russian losses in places like Avdivka and Bakhmut, however, have been absolutely catastrophic, with 10:1 or worse losses in heavy equipment and military vehicles suffered compared to the Ukrainians.


The way you post on this thread reflects an attitude that completely ignores source set 1, willingly believes source set 2, and completely ignores source set 3.

This is not the attitude of someone who is impartial on the conflict, this is not the attitude of someone that is familiar with how war is fought, this is not the attitude of someone who is familiar with the culture and historic performance of the Russian military, and military-industrial complex.

This is the attitude of someone who willingly absorbs Russian propaganda, and ignores anything that contradicts it.

If you're going to claim that is not the case, why should anyone believe you?

You're free to not believe me.

I don't trust any of the propaganda sources or numbers from either side. I'm just looking at results.

What I'm seeing is mostly a stalemate, some back and forth, but over the last year Russia appears to have the initiative a bit.

I think Russia can sustain this for quite some time, and Ukraine requires being propped up by the US to maintain the effort. I don't think they can keep it up as long.

So in the end, I think Russia is going to keep it going until Ukraine goes into peace talks and they work something out.

So, I want the US to stop funding them, so that those talks happen sooner.

This isn't me being pro Russia, this is me thinking Ukraine can't win this, and watching the lives wasted, And equipment and money lost, all to delay what I believe is the inevitable. Further, I think in large part, the US is supporting this because defense contractors and those who's pockets they are lining are making ABSOLUTE FUCKTONS of money off all this. That and they see it as an opportunity to bleed Russia at Ukraine's expense, when eventually they're going to abandon them so they have to do the peace talks anyways.

I just would prefer if we rip that bandaid off now and stop funding them.

 

[LordsFire]

You're free to not believe me.

I don't trust any of the propaganda sources or numbers from either side. I'm just looking at results.

What I'm seeing is mostly a stalemate, some back and forth, but over the last year Russia appears to have the initiative a bit.

I think Russia can sustain this for quite some time, and Ukraine requires being propped up by the US to maintain the effort. I don't think they can keep it up as long.

So in the end, I think Russia is going to keep it going until Ukraine goes into peace talks and they work something out.

So, I want the US to stop funding them, so that those talks happen sooner.

This isn't me being pro Russia, this is me thinking Ukraine can't win this, and watching the lives wasted, And equipment and money lost, all to delay what I believe is the inevitable. Further, I think in large part, the US is supporting this because defense contractors and those who's pockets they are lining are making ABSOLUTE FUCKTONS of money off all this. That and they see it as an opportunity to bleed Russia at Ukraine's expense, when eventually they're going to abandon them so they have to do the peace talks anyways.

I just would prefer if we rip that bandaid off now and stop funding them.

It's one thing to hold a position like this.

It's another thing to actively resist learning enough to understand why what you propose simply is not something on the table. And you've proven that you will also actively ignore factors that do not fit to the scenario you want to see play out.

You don't understand war, you don't understand the regional politics involved, and you are actively disinterested in learning about such things, yet you claim that others are acting like leftists about such things.

Just off the top of my head, are you aware of how much support the Baltic nations are sending Ukraine? Do you understand why they do that? Do you think they're likely to stop if the US does?

 

[mrttao]

it's another thing to actively resist learning

lol. lmao even.

stop projecting.
you neocons need to stop actively resisting against learning and turn your brain back on and stop consuming propaganda
you also need to stop behaving like leftists towards anyone who hasn't drank the coolaid. it is shameful.

 

[Bacle]

You're free to not believe me.

I don't trust any of the propaganda sources or numbers from either side. I'm just looking at results.

What I'm seeing is mostly a stalemate, some back and forth, but over the last year Russia appears to have the initiative a bit.

I think Russia can sustain this for quite some time, and Ukraine requires being propped up by the US to maintain the effort. I don't think they can keep it up as long.

So in the end, I think Russia is going to keep it going until Ukraine goes into peace talks and they work something out.

So, I want the US to stop funding them, so that those talks happen sooner.

This isn't me being pro Russia, this is me thinking Ukraine can't win this, and watching the lives wasted, And equipment and money lost, all to delay what I believe is the inevitable. Further, I think in large part, the US is supporting this because defense contractors and those who's pockets they are lining are making ABSOLUTE FUCKTONS of money off all this. That and they see it as an opportunity to bleed Russia at Ukraine's expense, when eventually they're going to abandon them so they have to do the peace talks anyways.

I just would prefer if we rip that bandaid off now and stop funding them.

You mean the 'peace talks' that you think will actually yield the 'Ukraine in NATO, with Russian agreement' outcome, as you have repeatedly stated.

You do not understand neither side thinks of 'peace talks' this way, nor do you seem to take into account no one can actually trust Russia to keep their word, if Russia gets anything out of this.

Why do you trust Putin/Russia to keep their word on a new agreement, when most of the rest of the world does not, including the people of Ukraine?

Maybe set aside your anger and spite towards people like me and others who support Ukraine, and actually do some critical thinking about the realities involved in your unicorn of a 'peace deal', and whether it has any real chance of happening as you want.

Also, maybe stop ignoring the details that don't fit your narrative (the continued losses in the Russian Black Sea Fleet, for one) and stop acting like Ukraine is only being supported to put money into defense contractor pockets.

You are invested in a UA loss, @Rocinante, you have been since this invasion kicked off, and it's not that you are pro-Russia formally, it's that your actions and rhetoric are giving top-cover for the horror's Russia is inflicting on Ukraine and try to pretend that Russia won't try for more again years from now, if they get to 'keep' any of the land they've occupied in Ukraine.

 

[Rocinante]

It's one thing to hold a position like this.

It's another thing to actively resist learning enough to understand why what you propose simply is not something on the table. And you've proven that you will also actively ignore factors that do not fit to the scenario you want to see play out.

You don't understand war, you don't understand the regional politics involved, and you are actively disinterested in learning about such things, yet you claim that others are acting like leftists about such things.

Just off the top of my head, are you aware of how much support the Baltic nations are sending Ukraine? Do you understand why they do that? Do you think they're likely to stop if the US does?

I have said before that if Europe wants to support the war on their own then they should go for it.

My primary concern is in the US involvement.

My opinion since this entire thing started has been "Russia bad, but it's not our fight."

 

[LordsFire]

I have said before that if Europe wants to support the war on their own then they should go for it.

My primary concern is in the US involvement.

My opinion since this entire thing started has been "Russia bad, but it's not our fight."

So you want to fight China over Taiwan?

You want Iran to keep attacking international trade?

You want other local strongmen to decide that the US lacks the will to act, so they can do whatever they want?

 

[AnimalNoodles]

So you want to fight China over Taiwan?

You want Iran to keep attacking international trade?

You want other local strongmen to decide that the US lacks the will to act, so they can do whatever they want?

Its funny, because the weaknesses of western economies, doctrine and weapons revealed by the Ukraine war has brought your enemies together and encouraged them to act.

 

[LordsFire]

Its funny, because the weaknesses of western economies, doctrine and weapons revealed by the Ukraine war has brought your enemies together and encouraged them to act.

You are so comprehensively ignorant of war on every level that there's no real point in responding to nonsense like this anymore.

 

[Marduk]

I have said before that if Europe wants to support the war on their own then they should go for it.

My primary concern is in the US involvement.

My opinion since this entire thing started has been "Russia bad, but it's not our fight."

It's so fucking hilarious that so many of the people who constantly tell everyone "it's not our fight" and "i don't care much about this" spend so much time and effort trying to convince those who do care that Russia will win, Russia is in the right to do this, and Ukraine will lose, instead of you know, talking about any other things that they supposedly care about much more.
Do we need to play this cat and mouse game?

 

[Husky_Khan]

Russian MilBloggers estimates are 16,000 Troops "permanently lost" since October in Avdiivka. Also of brigade level formations losing sixty to seventy percent of their manpower due to casualties in these prior months.



Ukrainian claims are three times that number of Russian killed. They also claimed roughly twice as many vehicle losses as documented. So the standard of Ukraine exaggerating, but not to the epic level of Russian exaggerations that we've seen throughout this War.

Looks like Russians and pro-Russian accounts managed another victory into reportedly bullying one of their own MilBloggers and Servicemembers into killing himself for daring to be critical of leadership and reporting on higher Russian casualty numbers.

Российский «военкор» и военнослужащий Андрей Морозов (Мурз) покончил с собой

Накануне он раскрыл цифры потерь России в Авдеевке, из-за чего на него надавило командование

istories.media

From Murz' Suicide Note (poorly translated via Google).

"Today, Comrade Colonel, on your order, I was forced to delete a post from my telegram channel "They are writing to us from Ioannina." And your command forced you to give this order, relying on good old army collective responsibility. If it doesn't remove it, we won't provide supplies. Shells. Copters. New tanks and infantry fighting vehicles. And he, your command, was forced to do this by political prostitutes led by Vladimir Solovyov, who are pissing themselves to come and pull the trigger. Well, I'll do it myself. I will shoot myself if no one dares to take on this trifling matter. And they will give you tanks and copters. From February 21, 2024, you can safely tell everyone who calls you that I do not serve you, and there are no problems with me."

He actually mentions Vladimir Solovyov, the talking head you see on all of those Russian propaganda television talk shows.

Also a published letter of grievances he had, including the lack of recognition of certain Russian military units by Putin for participating in the Battle of Avdiivka.



He went from a rising star in the Stalinist Red Blitzkrieg Movement, to spending time in prison vandalizing a United Russia iconography... with gun... to working with the LPR forces in openly supporting the genocide of Ukrainians since 2014, to being bullied into suicide by his more loyal Russian propagandists over military conduct and operations. Rest in Peace Murz.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

He went from a rising star in the Stalinist Red Blitzkrieg Movement, to spending time in prison vandalizing a United Russia iconography... with gun... to working with the LPR forces in openly supporting the genocide of Ukrainians since 2014, to being bullied into suicide by his more loyal Russian propagandists over military conduct and operations. Rest in Peace Murz.

...don't forget what 'bullying' means in the Russian Army...likely gang rape, beatings, and who knows what else.
I'm really just surprised that more Russian mobiks aren't emptying magazines into their 'comrades' prior to shooting themselves.

 

[Rocinante]

It's so fucking hilarious that so many of the people who constantly tell everyone "it's not our fight" and "i don't care much about this" spend so much time and effort trying to convince those who do care that Russia will win, Russia is in the right to do this, and Ukraine will lose, instead of you know, talking about any other things that they supposedly care about much more.
Do we need to play this cat and mouse game?

I'm going to discuss things on a discussion board, fuck off if you don't like it

 

[Zachowon]

Russia will not allow Ukraine in NATO no matter what peace talks happen.
It is thier number one thing they try and get to be agreed upon.
Do you know why? So they can try again

 

[Marduk]

I'm going to discuss things on a discussion board, fuck off if you don't like it

You can either discuss things on a discussion board like a weeb talks about anime, or you can claim to not care about the thing you are discussing with this amount of effort and passion, but for fuck's sake, you can't do both, that's just insulting to other people because it implies they are too stupid to notice.
Stop bullshitting people if you don't like people noticing that you are bullshitting people.
And don't complain when people start having suspicions as to what's your motivation for this kind of dodgy act.

 

[Bacle]

For those wanting to see US keeping account of the weapons going to Ukraine and the aid money, the OIG has a report out, it's linked in the Community Notes that Elon was hit with.

 

[Husky_Khan]

For those wanting to see US keeping account of the weapons going to Ukraine and the aid money, the OIG has a report out, it's linked in the Community Notes that Elon was hit with.

Yeah it's interesting how they seem to be absolutely unaware of the existence not just of the various audits and other oversight that has taken place but also the establishment of a specific Office of the Insecptor General for aid to Ukraine, the SIGOAR (Operation Atlantic Resolve).

Operation Atlantic Resolve (OAR)

This Special Inspector General report to Congress discusses the planned, ongoing, and completed oversight work conducted by the DoD, State, and USAID Offices of Inspector General, as well as the other

www.dodig.mil

 

[mrttao]

Yeah it's interesting how they seem to be absolutely unaware of the existence not just of the various audits and other oversight that has taken place but also the establishment of a specific Office of the Insecptor General for aid to Ukraine, the SIGOAR (Operation Atlantic Resolve).

Operation Atlantic Resolve (OAR)

This Special Inspector General report to Congress discusses the planned, ongoing, and completed oversight work conducted by the DoD, State, and USAID Offices of Inspector General, as well as the other

www.dodig.mil

The entire MSM PR apparatus, with no exception, shrieked that any republican that asked for oversight is "a traitor" and that we MUST pass aid bills without oversight.
This stuck with people.

looks like they quietly started an oversight board after the fact to retroactively discredit people who called for oversight.

 

[Marduk]

The entire MSM PR apparatus, with no exception, shrieked that any republican that asked for oversight is "a traitor" and that we MUST pass aid bills without oversight.
This stuck with people.

looks like they quietly started an oversight board after the fact to retroactively discredit people who called for oversight.

Journos, as usual, are being useless. Also showing people boring inspection documents (go read them, see for yourself) won't give them clicks.

The Russia simps just want to complain about Ukraine aid, so they would rather not hear of something that just takes away one of their talking points.

The isolationists are as good as the journos, if they were better they wouldn't be isolationists.

No, it was not "quietly started after the fact", it has statements going back to August 2022.