Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Marduk]

facepalm.
are you trolling me? I literally pointed out what the hypocrisy part is.
Which is "it is ok for me to do it, but bad when others do the exact same thing to me"
This is the textbook definition of hypocrisy.

Except... it's not the exact same thing?
The legal guy gives the rules, and the exceptions the rules contain.
He argues that the rules should not have the exceptions, and everyone should follow his personally preferred no-exception rules that literally no one follows, and if you don't agree you are a hypocrite.

I said it is ok for everyone.
King Arts said he respects the fact I am not a hypocrite. Even though he disagrees with me morally.

You are the one proposing it is ok when your side does it, but bad when the other side does it.

No, he disagrees with the legal analysis that says it does have exceptions pretty much, but on moral, rather than legal grounds. I don't share his moral disagreement, i think those are fine.

Reading comprension.

Law is not morality, I explicitly stated that I personally think this law is wrong. And that it is moral for all sides to target propagandists.

HOWEVER, law can be indicative of what society at large believes.

In this case, it's international law, so it can't be indicative of what "the society" believes, because it covers multiple societies, including those who obviously disagree about such things, so it can only represent what few societies think at most.

You explicitly claimed that no society on earth agrees with @King Arts definition of morality

^ You literally said the above to king arts in reply to him stating that morality = geneva convention.

What society agrees with him?

You are not only a hypocrite for saying it is ok for your side to break the geneva convention but a war crime when the other side does the exact same thing.

The legal guy says international law has exception to protection of particularly extreme propagandists, that's what our disagreement was about.
Neither you nor him could make a legal argument for why he's wrong about it, only moral ones about "but who is to interpret what constitutes bad enough".

But you are also deluded if you think that no society in existence believes that the rules of the geneva convention are representatives of morality.

One who thinks they are perfect as they are, neither too lose nor to strict? Good luck with that.
Though certainly not his personally favored modification of these rules.

 

[mrttao]

I can't believe I have to explain the definition of the word. but ok

Hypocrisy

Hypocrisy is the practice of engaging in the same behavior or activity for which one criticizes another or the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform. In moral psychology, it is the failure to follow one's own expressed moral rules...

dbpedia.org

Hypocrisy is the practice of engaging in the same behavior or activity for which one criticizes another or the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform. In moral psychology, it is the failure to follow one's own expressed moral rules and principles.

Saying "it is ok for me, but not for thee" is the core definition of hypocrisy.

 

[Marduk]

I can't believe I have to explain the definition of the word. but ok

Hypocrisy

Hypocrisy is the practice of engaging in the same behavior or activity for which one criticizes another or the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform. In moral psychology, it is the failure to follow one's own expressed moral rules...

dbpedia.org

Saying "it is ok for me, but not for thee" is the core definition of hypocrisy.

Ok, what genocidal or similarly extreme propagandists did Russia assassinate and then got shat on for it?

 

[King Arts]

What society agrees with him?

Umm all the ones that agree to the geneva conventions? Lol like the whole reason they were signed and drafted up was because people thought they were good, that people don't always follow them doesen't mean they don't believe it. Just like how if there is rape in society does not mean that society thinks rape is good.

No, he disagrees with the legal analysis that says it does have exceptions pretty much, but on moral, rather than legal grounds. I don't share his moral disagreement, i think those are fine.

We actually did not get too in depth into the legal debate. But the example you gave is not clear cut like you are portraying, the majority oppinion/interpretation seems to say propaganda is civillians UNLESS they are actively engaging in support for war crimes. It then went on to say that actively engaging means that he is provoking a mass rape/massacre/etc. a specefic one and it has to be imminent. He would have to say "Let's go wipe out this village, kill all the men rape the women. Soldiers go tomorrow and kill this village!"

Merely saying "Wipe out the enemy nation!" does not rise to that level according to most legal experts.

 

[Marduk]

Umm all the ones that agree to the geneva conventions? Lol like the whole reason they were signed and drafted up was because people thought they were good, that people don't always follow them doesen't mean they don't believe it. Just like how if there is rape in society does not mean that society thinks rape is good.


We actually did not get too in depth into the legal debate. But the example you gave is not clear cut like you are portraying, the majority oppinion/interpretation seems to say propaganda is civillians UNLESS they are actively engaging in support for war crimes. It then went on to say that actively engaging means that he is provoking a mass rape/massacre/etc. a specefic one and it has to be imminent. He would have to say "Let's go wipe out this village, kill all the men rape the women. Soldiers go tomorrow and kill this village!"

Merely saying "Wipe out the enemy nation!" does not rise to that level according to most legal experts.

That's a ridiculous standard to take, advocating genocide wouldn't be bad enough because by the sheer scale and effort involved it can't be *that* imminent and specific.
So we agree to the point that if he did advocate for war crimes he was a legitimate target, and that he did advocate for war crimes more or less, but for some reason now you are trying to insist that his advocacy for war crimes was not technically specific and imminent enough to qualify, and you have nothing for arguing that except your own word and personal judgement.

 

[Agent23]

> Yes you can murder reporters
> But only if we declare that they are evil reporters
> Good reporters like us are untouchable
> We are the only one who get to declare which reporters are evil and which are good.

lel. the sheer myopia

That reminds me, didn't Poland detain some Spanish reporter without trial for not saying what they want to hear about the Donbass?

And we also have Marduk on record bitching as to how Polish cancel culture is not strong enough where those that do not support his Muscal Mania are concerned, you know wanting them shot or sent to reeducation camps, not just sacked from their jobs and denied platforms....

 

[Agent23]

Yep.If we killed Lenin and all his supporters in 1917,it would be less then 100.000KIA.Even if twice as much died innocent,it is still nothing comparing to number of communism victims.
And,even worst,what they did with survivors.
Sowki/soviet people/ are creatures who would always serv stronger/like opportunists/ but only those who try create hell on Earth.
Those who fight for normal reasons - not so,and those who really fight for humans...soveks would kill them for free.

Becouse they not only must be enslaved,but also enslave others.
Scouring of Shire in LOTR in reality was communist state made there.

Ah, yes, the "All Russians are evil commie orcs" meme.

You do realize you are basically calling a whole country of people that, don't you?

Including ones that weren't born or were too young to remember the Commies/The USSR.

And we also have the huge silent majority that just shrugged, turned around and left the whole rotting construct fall apart.

 

[ATP]

Trump is campaigning on reducing support to Ukraine amigo. You are cheering the wrong side. Although both sides are crazy in their own ways

Good.Becouse Trump COULD sell us to Moscov,when Biden WOULD gave us to Moscov for free,like all good democrats before him.
And reducing what exactly? Except Himars,drones and now 30 Abrams and 98 Bradleys,USA send there only old stuff would they need to scrap anyway.

If Trump send another 30 Abrams but not old stuff,it would change little.

 

[ATP]

Ah, yes, the "All Russians are evil commie orcs" meme.

You do realize you are basically calling a whole country of people that, don't you?

Including ones that weren't born or were too young to remember the Commies/The USSR.

And we also have the huge silent majority that just shrugged, turned around and left the whole rotting construct fall apart.

There is no more russians,so they could not be evil.But their ruling class are - as postsoviets,not russians.

And,being sovek is part of culture.Sovek parents would rais sovek children,which would serve stronger - but only as long as they enslave others.

Silent majority - maybe they exist on Siberia or Petersburg.I read,that people there are normal.

 

[mrttao]

Ah, yes, the "All Russians are evil commie orcs" meme.

Not just russians. Every country that was ever communist.
Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungry, Chechoslovakia, East Germany, Yugoslavia, Albania, Cambodia, China, Romania, Somalia, Yugoslavia, afghanistan, angola, benin, congo, cuba, ethiopia, kampuchea, grenada, north korea, lao, madagascar, mongolia, mozambique, stuvan, vietnam, yemen, and more. Most of south america too.

And in recent years. more and more of the western world is going the same route. The number of non orcs in europe is decreasing by the day and soon all non orcs will be extinct.

Orcs are the future. Because humans are inherently a bunch of cucks whose fondest wish is to be replaced by orcs. Very sad.
We are inching ever closer to a Great Filter.

 

[Agent23]

Not just russians. Every country that was ever communist.
Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungry, Chechoslovakia, East Germany, Yugoslavia, Albania, Cambodia, China, Romania, Somalia, Yugoslavia, afghanistan, angola, benin, congo, cuba, ethiopia, kampuchea, grenada, north korea, lao, madagascar, mongolia, mozambique, stuvan, vietnam, yemen, and more. Most of south america too.

Yeah, ok, sure, because Eastern Yurup is not more freedom loving and pro-free market than western Yurup, I mean, look at the vaccine nonsense...
Do you wanna know who one of the most vehement critics of the whole shit show was?

An eastern European MEP.

And there is Orban, and a lot of other Eastern European politicians.

They are all orcs, sounds a lot like they are all savages and totally discounts individual agency and the staying power of traditional national cultures.

And in recent years. more and more of the western world is going the same route. The number of non orcs in europe is decreasing by the day and soon all non orcs will be extinct.

Orcs are the future. Because humans are inherently a bunch of cucks whose fondest wish is to be replaced by orcs. Very sad.
We are inching ever closer to a Great Filter.

The commie ideology was a lot weaker than what yaal think.

 

[ATP]

Yeah, ok, sure, because Eastern Yurup is not more freedom loving and pro-free market than western Yurup, I mean, look at the vaccine nonsense...
Do you wanna know who one of the most vehement critics of the whole shit show was?

An eastern European MEP.

And there is Orban, and a lot of other Eastern European politicians.

They are all orcs, sounds a lot like they are all savages and totally discounts individual agency and the staying power of traditional national cultures.

The commie ideology was a lot weaker than what yaal think.

1.We are taking about soveks,not Orban.
2.In Poland 20-25% served commies,when we still have Church and private property.Russians have none of it.
That is why Poland still exist/with 30% sovek/,when Russia is no more.

If we were under such hard occupation of Russia,we would be destroyed,too.

 

[mrttao]

Yeah, ok, sure, because Eastern Yurup is not more freedom loving and pro-free market than western Yurup, I mean, look at the vaccine nonsense...

I explicitly stated in the very next paragraph that western world is all falling too.
I am not saying "they are orcs and we are humans". I am saying "everyone is orcs now. including me, including my people"

We have a bunch of green tusked people going "I am a human, YOU are the orc". None of them apparently have access to a mirror.

A great filter is not graded on a curve. Someone else being worse off than you, does not mean you are healthy enough to survive.
How many uninfected humans remain in the orc apocalypse?
would they be enough to resurge or will humanity go extinct.

The answer to that is... not many.
Communism is not the only path towards orcifying a country.
The woke cult is another branch of the orc menace.

The only non orcs happen to also be cucks or castrated.

 

[Agent23]

1.We are taking about soveks,not Orban.
2.In Poland 20-25% served commies,when we still have Church and private property.Russians have none of it.
That is why Poland still exist/with 30% sovek/,when Russia is no more.

If we were under such hard occupation of Russia,we would be destroyed,too.

Look dude, the Russians are not the frigging Borg, k.

 

[King Arts]

1.We are taking about soveks,not Orban.
2.In Poland 20-25% served commies,when we still have Church and private property.Russians have none of it.
That is why Poland still exist/with 30% sovek/,when Russia is no more.

If we were under such hard occupation of Russia,we would be destroyed,too.

That’s not true the Russians had Orthodoxy which made sure they did not go extinct.

 

[Agent23]

That’s not true the Russians had Orthodoxy which made sure they did not go extinct.

And various forms of nationalism, and family structures, and black markets.

 

[ATP]

Look dude, the Russians are not the frigging Borg, k.

what russians? and soveks are not borgs.Becouse borgs would die for their cause,when postsoviets only kill others.
They are eternal slaves who always serw stronger slaver - as long as it is safe.

That’s not true the Russians had Orthodoxy which made sure they did not go extinct.

Sigh.Greece had Orthodoxy.Soviets there murdered more then 50% of priests,and those who left served party,not God.
Current patriarch is kgb officer.
So called orthodox church in Moscov is just another branch of kgb.

And various forms of nationalism, and family structures, and black markets.

What nationalism? soviets killed them all.Families was destroyed,and children denounced their parents for party.Black market was ruled by agents,too.Real cryminals died,what remained served kgb,or was kgb.

I undarstandt,that as Bulgar you need Mother Russia to feel save from another turks,like average poles need fairy tale about noble USA to feel safe.

But look at me - i am avare,that USA from fairy tales never existed,and they could sell as at best,or gave for free at worst - but i do no despair,becouse i belive in Holy Mary,not USA.You should do the same.

 

[Megadeath]

They are all orcs, sounds a lot like they are all savages and totally discounts individual agency and the staying power of traditional national cultures.

It's a sad day in a strange world when I feel the need to agree with and amplify anything coming from one of the few people I truly despise, but here we are. I guess if even trump can do two or three things right, it shouldn't surprise me that Agent23 can manage one.

 

[Aldarion]

Not just russians. Every country that was ever communist.
Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungry, Chechoslovakia, East Germany, Yugoslavia, Albania, Cambodia, China, Romania, Somalia, Yugoslavia, afghanistan, angola, benin, congo, cuba, ethiopia, kampuchea, grenada, north korea, lao, madagascar, mongolia, mozambique, stuvan, vietnam, yemen, and more. Most of south america too.

And in recent years. more and more of the western world is going the same route. The number of non orcs in europe is decreasing by the day and soon all non orcs will be extinct.

Orcs are the future. Because humans are inherently a bunch of cucks whose fondest wish is to be replaced by orcs. Very sad.
We are inching ever closer to a Great Filter.

I disagree.

With the exception of Russia, every European country that was ever Communist is now less Communist that every Western country that never was Communist. Poland e.g. has had experience with Communism that it doesn't want to repeat.

As for the Western world, it wasn't just "in recent years", unless you are like me and consider "recent years" to be anything post-1900. Germany was basically Communist since Chancellor Bismarck. France had been a well of bad ideas since 15th century at the latest. Rest of the West let the Communists infiltrate them in 1960s and they are now running the show, under a different name ("liberals", "progressives", "human rights activists", and so on).

 

[King Arts]

I disagree.

With the exception of Russia, every European country that was ever Communist is now less Communist that every Western country that never was Communist. Poland e.g. has had experience with Communism that it doesn't want to repeat.

As for the Western world, it wasn't just "in recent years", unless you are like me and consider "recent years" to be anything post-1900. Germany was basically Communist since Chancellor Bismarck. France had been a well of bad ideas since 15th century at the latest. Rest of the West let the Communists infiltrate them in 1960s and they are now running the show, under a different name ("liberals", "progressives", "human rights activists", and so on).

I wouldn't say Russia is especially more communist, I'm sure there are some who idoloze the Soviet Unions policies. But I'd say that most Russians don't like the soviet union internal policies. But they like the empire. The soviet union was basically a Russian Empire. Is it morally wrong yes empire is, but it's not some horrible thing civilized nations don't engage it. Look at how many British people suck off and go goo goo for the British Empire. I'm sure Indians, Africans, and Chinese hate that as much as Eastern Euros do when Russians suck off the Russian empire.