No Enemies To The Right?

[Blasterbot]

How much effort do you think it takes to condemn "some 100 people from an extra paleoconservative church", exactly?

We're not the regressive left; our goal isn't to hound their every waking moment, making their lives miserable. Just don't ignore what they're all about in favor of tribal loyalty, and don't hand them power they will inevitably try to use against you.

much like Trump. they will forget your condemnations and in the next conversation force you to denounce nazi's every time you speak. the goal they have is to force you to talk about nazis so they can go to their comrades and use that to push harder against the evil Nazis on the right. which just means those who disagree with them. every time you do it you accept the lefts framing and give them a minor PR win that they will use to bludgeon the middle that isn't paying attention into submission. we will never get rid of all racists. we will never get rid of all anti-Semites. just ask the jews about how long that has been going on. and there will always be edgy 14 year olds making jokes that are only funny to them because they make people clutch their pearls. if you want a society of tolerance you are going to have to accept that sometimes people are in fact bigoted assholes and get a vote too.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

much like Trump. they will forget your condemnations and in the next conversation force you to denounce nazi's every time you speak. the goal they have is to force you to talk about nazis so they can go to their comrades and use that to push harder against the evil Nazis on the right. which just means those who disagree with them. every time you do it you accept the lefts framing and give them a minor PR win that they will use to bludgeon the middle that isn't paying attention into submission. we will never get of of all racists. we will never get rid of all anti-Semites. just ask the jews about how long that has been going on. and there will always be edgy 14 year olds making jokes that are only funny to them because they make people clutch their pearls. if you want a society of tolerance you are going to have to accept that sometimes people are in fact bigoted assholes and get a vote too.

This isn’t actually about what the progressive left thinks.

This is about keeping a horde of would be mass murdering lunatics out of the movement and far away from any taste of power.

Please try to understand this.

 

[Blasterbot]

This isn’t actually about what the progressive left thinks.

This is about keeping a horde of would be mass murdering lunatics out of the movement and far away from any taste of power.

Please try to understand this.

then why hand the other horde of mass murdering lunatics constant wins? the main reason there is a far right that is in its current state it is how hard Identitarian shit has been pushed. attack that. if you think it is wrong to judge on race or ethnicity? attack it on the left. show how they are hypocrites. you think that if some Christians get some power they gonna build a theocracy? news flash for all that there is a small religious revival the overwhelming majority just want to be left in peace to worship. if you get the state to stop fucking with them there won't be a backlash. good luck with that though because all of the left and half of the right seems obsessed with it.

 

[Bigking321]

I really don't see any evidence whatsoever that the right has "a horde of would be mass murdering lunatics" that they need to deal with.

I see plenty of evidence the Feds are trying to encourage it. Infiltrating groups and pushing them to cause problems.

I see plenty of evidence the media and politicians want to jump on and exaggerate anything to promote that narrative.

But actual proof? Nah, not really.

And if murderous mobs of right wingers did start burning down cities I imagine they would be condemned by everyone, not propped up like the blm/antifa riots.

 

[Zyobot]

I really don't see any evidence whatsoever that the right has "a horde of would be mass murdering lunatics" that they need to deal with.

I see plenty of evidence the Feds are trying to encourage it. Infiltrating groups and pushing them to cause problems.

I see plenty of evidence the media and politicians want to jump on and exaggerate anything to promote that narrative.

But actual proof? Nah, not really.

And if murderous mobs of right wingers did start burning down cities I imagine they would be condemned by everyone, not propped up like the blm/antifa riots.

Right now, sure. But then, what about twenty, thirty, or forty years from now?

While I don’t have a crystal ball in front of me, it’s also true that historically, enough Leftist agitation (which is where we’re at now) eventually catalyzes blowback and reprisals from the Right — which, by that point, comes up with its own mass-murdering lunatics as a long-delayed, but undoubtedly severe response to decades of the Far Left pushing the envelope while everyone else sits and watches (which is where I see us ending up).

Case in point: The Nazi Party, which I know people here don’t consider to be “properly” Right-Wing (and neither do I, as a matter of fact). However, it’s undoubtedly true the German conservatives who otherwise despised them reluctantly courted them to defeat unmistakable Leftists like the KPD, which (as @Lord Sovereign has emphatically pointed out) cost them dearly and gave Hitler the opening he needed to bring Germany to ruin before Thälmann could. So, even if they’re not exactly what you’d call “Right-Leaning”, you still shouldn’t let wacky third-positionists or other aspiring mass-murderers who seem more amenable to you than the Globalists or Wokies do into your movement. Because then, they’ll hijack it — and probably purge you the same way the Far Left would’ve, had they gotten their way instead.

And yes, I’m aware that more “vanilla” examples like Pinochet and Franco existed. But even if their Reactionary dictatorships were less horrible than the alternatives (as well as Far Left regimes in general, really), they were still thuggish assholes who needed to die before Chile and Spain could democratize and restore the rule of law. Basically, just because a street thug helps stop a mass-shooter doesn’t make the street thug a good person; merely the least terrible of some bad choices, and one you should work to avoid well in advance. Not that everyone has that option, of course, but ideally, you shouldn’t be complacent and just let the thug get away with whatever they want.

 

[Bacle]

I really don't see any evidence whatsoever that the right has "a horde of would be mass murdering lunatics" that they need to deal with.

I see plenty of evidence the Feds are trying to encourage it. Infiltrating groups and pushing them to cause problems.

I see plenty of evidence the media and politicians want to jump on and exaggerate anything to promote that narrative.

But actual proof? Nah, not really.

And if murderous mobs of right wingers did start burning down cities I imagine they would be condemned by everyone, not propped up like the blm/antifa riots.

How about all those folks who want 'helicopter rides ala Pinochet' for anyone to the Left of Rand Paul?

We have plenty of proof that there are those on the Right in the US who would be fine with an American Pinochet taking power and beginning the same sort of literal purges.

 

[Blasterbot]

And yes, I’m aware that more “vanilla” examples like Pinochet and Franco existed. But even if their Reactionary dictatorships were less horrible than the alternatives (as well as Far Left regimes in general, really), they were still thuggish assholes who needed to die before Chile and Spain could democratize and restore the rule of law. Basically, just because a street thug helps stop a mass-shooter doesn’t make the street thug a good person; merely the least terrible of some bad choices, and one you should work to avoid well in advance. Not that everyone has that option, of course, but ideally, you shouldn’t be complacent and just let the thug get away with whatever they want.

Actually I'm pretty sure Pinochet is the only modern dictator who did retire and installed a democratic government when he left. his body count was also low 4 digits. all in all he isn't an example you want to bring up here.

How about all those folks who want 'helicopter rides ala Pinochet' for anyone to the Left of Rand Paul?

We have plenty of proof that there are those on the Right in the US who would be fine with an American Pinochet taking power and beginning the same sort of literal purges.

I've only really seen people making edgy jokes about that. admittedly I could be wrong and there is an american junta ready to form and take over to kill the gays, jews, BIPOCs, and communists. but I don't believe they got any real sway in any portion of the right. they just get stapled to it by others so we are forced to spend our time and energy denouncing them to no effect instead of actually pushing for any real agenda.

 

[Aldarion]

How about all those folks who want 'helicopter rides ala Pinochet' for anyone to the Left of Rand Paul?

We have plenty of proof that there are those on the Right in the US who would be fine with an American Pinochet taking power and beginning the same sort of literal purges.

Pinochet helicopter rides is a meme. And not a very serious one - it is basically an expression of frustration, because Left has taken over so completely that nobody sees a solution to that.

Also, Pinochet was far less bad than literally any leftist dictator, and was better than a fair number of "democratic" governments as well. Funny though how Pinochet and Franco both let republicans take power (whether that was a good idea is another topic), whereas leftist dictators always left a mess that in many cases had to be sorted out militarily...

 

[Bacle]

I've only really seen people making edgy jokes about that. admittedly I could be wrong and there is an american junta ready to form and take over to kill the gays, jews, BIPOCs, and communists. but I don't believe they got any real sway in any portion of the right. they just get stapled to it by others so we are forced to spend our time and energy denouncing them to no effect instead of actually pushing for any real agenda.

The 'junta' would likely go after people based on political beliefs, not race, so only really the gays and commies would likely be the initial targets of helo rides.

Though fears it could take on a racial angle are not exactly unfounded, so Jews and BIPOCs probably would be understanably fearful of getting added to the helo ride list as well.

Pinochet helicopter rides is a meme. And not a very serious one - it is basically an expression of frustration, because Left has taken over so completely that nobody sees a solution to that.

Also, Pinochet was far less bad than literally any leftist dictator, and was better than a fair number of "democratic" governments as well. Funny though how Pinochet and Franco both let republicans take power (whether that was a good idea is another topic), whereas leftist dictators always left a mess that in many cases had to be sorted out militarily...

Pinochet and Franco's abuses and extreme actions also helped give commies and Leftists more ammo to feed the media machine and cultural landscape against the Right.

And don't know if you've noticed, but whatever good Pinochet and Franco did has effectively been erased in their home nations; Pinochet's action in particular helped boost the image of Bolivarian Marxists and Leftist in S. America, which ultimately allow more leftists to move into power on hatred of Pinochet's abuses and the legacy of those.

 

[Zyobot]

Actually I'm pretty sure Pinochet is the only modern dictator who did retire and installed a democratic government when he left. his body count was also low 4 digits. all in all he isn't an example you want to bring up here.

Yes, but you're blithely ignoring the rest of what I said.

Granted, I suppose I was a bit sloppy when noting Pinochet by saying he had to die first (when he “merely” had to step aside, as you said). However, that's still not rebutting my point about how street thugs (Pinochet and Franco) aren't good people because they stopped mass-shooters (their Hard Left opponents), nor that it’s ultimately best to prevent both.

And again, I literally wrote a whole paragraph on why courting brutal “Anti-Left” gangsters who claim to be your friend is a horrible idea that one set of conservatives (again, the old-school Prussian bunch in Weimar Germany) fell for already. Seen in that light, I’d caution the Right to avoid associating with “those types” who might present themselves as allies at first. Time will tell whether they actually listen.

 

[Aldarion]

Pinochet and Franco's abuses and extreme actions also helped give commies and Leftists more ammo to feed the media machine and cultural landscape against the Right.

And don't know if you've noticed, but whatever good Pinochet and Franco did has effectively been erased in their home nations; Pinochet's action in particular helped boost the image of Bolivarian Marxists and Leftist in S. America, which ultimately allow more leftists to move into power on hatred of Pinochet's abuses and the legacy of those.

You are deluding yourself if you think that ever mattered.

Right doesn't need to do crimes for the Left to use that argument against them. If they don't have ammunition... they will just make shit up. As they have.

Everything bad you hear about the Inquisition? Made up by the Left.
Idea that Church was against the science? Made up by the Left.
Belief that Mussolini and Hitler were right-wing conservatives, even reactionaries? Made up by the Left.
Entire idea of "antifascism"? Made up by the Left.

You can shower yourself in ash and act like a saint, and the Left will still call you the worst monster and crucify you.

Yes, what you said about Pinochet and Franco is true, to an extent. But US never had the sort of right-wing dictators that Chile had, and the Left still took over. Same goes for Canada, UK, France... And leftist dictators are far worse than right-wing ones, and the Left outright celebrates them... I don't see that hurting them, politically.

 

[Blasterbot]

Yes, but you're blithely ignoring the rest of what I said.

Granted, I suppose I was a bit sloppy when noting Pinochet by saying he had to die first (when he “merely” had to step aside, as you said). However, that's still not rebutting my point about how street thugs (Pinochet and Franco) aren't good people because they stopped mass-shooters (their Hard Left opponents), nor that it’s ultimately best to prevent both.

And again, I literally wrote a whole paragraph on why courting brutal “Anti-Left” gangsters who claim to be your friend is a horrible idea that one set of conservatives (again, the old-school bunch in Weimar Germany) fell for already. Seen in that light, I’d caution the Right to avoid associating with “those types” who might present themselves as allies at first. Time will tell whether they actually listen.

Street thugs will always exist. just because I like the same sports team doesn't mean I support them. If you think loudly denouncing nazi's does anything look at the last 6-7 years. it did not work for trump. it did not work for any senator. it did not work for any representative. it will not work for you. the uninitiated normie who hears right wing and thinks nazis is never going to listen to you. they are stuck in the default left wing NPC mode until it blows up in their face.

Edit: sorry it did work for Cheney and Romney so if you are willing to completely sell out to the left and betray all principles to denounce innocents as nazis you may be treated as one of the good ones for as long you are useful to them.

 

[Curved_Sw0rd]

You are deluding yourself if you think that ever mattered.

Right doesn't need to do crimes for the Left to use that argument against them. If they don't have ammunition... they will just make shit up. As they have.

Everything bad you hear about the Inquisition? Made up by the Left.
Idea that Church was against the science? Made up by the Left.
Belief that Mussolini and Hitler were right-wing conservatives, even reactionaries? Made up by the Left.
Entire idea of "antifascism"? Made up by the Left.

You can shower yourself in ash and act like a saint, and the Left will still call you the worst monster and crucify you.

Yes, what you said about Pinochet and Franco is true, to an extent. But US never had the sort of right-wing dictators that Chile had, and the Left still took over. Same goes for Canada, UK, France... And leftist dictators are far worse than right-wing ones, and the Left outright celebrates them... I don't see that hurting them, politically.

It's important to remember that a Leftist's word regarding accusations like this? They are worth nothing.

And if one still holds these talking points in your heart after all is said and done, one is a Leftist deep down, no?

 

[strunkenwhite]

They define who's horrible and who's not, as long as you follow their definitions you're wasting time.

I saw variations on this theme repeated many, many times by many people. It misses the point entirely. It is not about adhering to standards imposed by the left, let alone left-imposed standards applied in bad faith to slur the right. It is about adhering to standards, period. Your own standards.

Now, Haywood argues that right good, left bad should be the only standard. This is obvious nonsense. Sure he makes token efforts to say there is room for excluding "charlatans" and the like but then he goes right back to saying, "By definition, anyone not Left is a friend." I don't know what definition he is using for friend, but I know it's stupid.

This is no way to run a railroad. At best, someone trying to follow this insanity will end up with cope like "being a know-nothing con artist is leftist" and thereby try to exclude people obviously on the right who are also know-nothing con artists. Is pedophilia inherently and exclusively leftist? It will be.

Back in reality, we do not punch right for the sake of punching right (or left for the sake of left, for that matter). We punch where there are people or ideas needing to be punched. And being on the right is not a guarantee that this is not the case.

 

[King Arts]

Ok, there is a great way to understand where fears about not punch left come from in modern pop culture, too.



Edward Sallow is a great example of the sort of mindset that many people in the middle fear is the end-state the fringe of the Right desires, with Caesar's Legion being the sort of 'trad, based' method of living and governing many on the Right's fringe would probably accept as a societal end-state.

Da faq? Your reason for the right being a danger is a video game about post apocalyptic America? Is this trolling.

 

[Terthna]

much like Trump. they will forget your condemnations and in the next conversation force you to denounce nazi's every time you speak. the goal they have is to force you to talk about nazis so they can go to their comrades and use that to push harder against the evil Nazis on the right. which just means those who disagree with them. every time you do it you accept the lefts framing and give them a minor PR win that they will use to bludgeon the middle that isn't paying attention into submission. we will never get rid of all racists. we will never get rid of all anti-Semites. just ask the jews about how long that has been going on. and there will always be edgy 14 year olds making jokes that are only funny to them because they make people clutch their pearls. if you want a society of tolerance you are going to have to accept that sometimes people are in fact bigoted assholes and get a vote too.

It's the same as with Trump being asked about "white supremacy" every week. It's to take away attention, make the other side implicitly confirm that they have something to do with the fringe, and make them talk about the fringes instead of anything more relevant politically.
Guess what would happen if Fox News people were running around and demanding prominent democrats condemn Marxism every time the far left does or says something.

In other words, you're both dismissing my individuality as nothing more than an act of submission to the enemy; because I must be an extension of your tribe in all aspects at all times, and not my own person with my own idea about what is right and what is wrong.

To be blunt, all this tribalism bullhonky has always irritated me, and I refuse to let it dictate my words and actions. If I have a problem with you or anyone else, I'm not just going to let it slide and shut up about it because we're ostensibly on the same side against a shared foe; not because I care about being dammed by association by what "they" say, but because I'd end up damming myself in my own mind if I did.

In short? Screw you, and the regressive left; because I can do that, and there's not a single thing any of you can do to stop me.

 

[Bacle]

In other words, you're both dismissing my individuality as nothing more than an act of submission to the enemy; because I must be an extension of your tribe in all aspects at all times, and not my own person with my own idea about what is right and what is wrong.

To be blunt, all this tribalism bullhonky has always irritated me, and I refuse to let it dictate my words and actions. If I have a problem with you or anyone else, I'm not just going to let it slide and shut up about it because we're ostensibly on the same side against a shared foe; not because I care about being dammed by association by what "they" say, but because I'd end up damming myself in my own mind if I did.

In short? Screw you, and the regressive left; because I can do that, and there's not a single thing any of you can do to stop me.

Yep, they do not consider individual views in their own context, only in the context of 'submission to Lefty narratives'.

They are Right Wing collectivists who try to pretend they aren't just the dark mirror image of the collectivist commies they so hate and oppose.

 

[Blasterbot]

In other words, you're both dismissing my individuality as nothing more than an act of submission to the enemy; because I must be an extension of your tribe in all aspects at all times, and not my own person with my own idea about what is right and what is wrong.

To be blunt, all this tribalism bullhonky has always irritated me, and I refuse to let it dictate my words and actions. If I have a problem with you or anyone else, I'm not just going to let it slide and shut up about it because we're ostensibly on the same side against a shared foe; not because I care about being dammed by association by what "they" say, but because I'd end up damming myself in my own mind if I did.

In short? Screw you, and the regressive left; because I can do that, and there's not a single thing any of you can do to stop me.

dude this entire time I have been speaking in terms of what I think and how the left views things. you want to ignore it you do you. I have not mandated anything. I didn't ascribe you or anyone to my "tribe". I have only said that denouncing nazi's accomplishes nothing. you can hate tribalism as much as you like. you can not like me either. that is fine. but don't go into things thinking that if you say over and over you are not a nazi and you hate nazi's that it will endear you to leftists or so called centrists that ignore politics and default blue.

 

[Terthna]

dude this entire time I have been speaking in terms of what I think and how the left views things. you want to ignore it you do you. I have not mandated anything. I didn't ascribe you or anyone to my "tribe". I have only said that denouncing nazi's accomplishes nothing. you can hate tribalism as much as you like. you can not like me either. that is fine. but don't go into things thinking that if you say over and over you are not a nazi and you hate nazi's that it will endear you to leftists or so called centrists that ignore politics and default blue.

Says the person who refuses to listen to me when I repeatedly say that when I choose to condemn someone on the right, it's because I (not the regressive left) have a problem with what they're doing/saying.

I reiterate; I have have never, and will never, call anyone a "Nazi" on behalf of the regressive left in an attempt to try and ingratiate myself to them, or anyone else. If I call someone a "Nazi" (which will likely never happen, because it is a useless word that's nothing more than a pejorative at this point), it will be because I (not the regressive left) think they're a "Nazi".

Screw the leftists, the centrists, and the rightists; this isn't about me trying to endear myself to any of them, it's about what I believe is right and wrong.

 

[King Arts]

In other words, you're both dismissing my individuality as nothing more than an act of submission to the enemy; because I must be an extension of your tribe in all aspects at all times, and not my own person with my own idea about what is right and what is wrong.

To be blunt, all this tribalism bullhonky has always irritated me, and I refuse to let it dictate my words and actions. If I have a problem with you or anyone else, I'm not just going to let it slide and shut up about it because we're ostensibly on the same side against a shared foe; not because I care about being dammed by association by what "they" say, but because I'd end up damming myself in my own mind if I did.

In short? Screw you, and the regressive left; because I can do that, and there's not a single thing any of you can do to stop me.

Then you will die at the left’s hands. Collective action is how humans have dominated other animals and tribes and nations that work together beat any individual United Nations like Japan don’t have the specter of liberals over them. Also even the founding fathers vaunted supposed individualists had Ben Franklin say “We must all hang together or most assuredly we will hang separately.”