No Enemies To The Right?

[Bacle]

Can you really blame them when modern society is in the state it's in? A glorious retvrn to the 90's isn't really going to cut it these days, no, there's no actual inoculation against the Equity Cult.

Yes, I can, because they are wanna-be authoritarian asshats disguising it all under religious reasoning, and I know better than to trust those sorts with power.

There will be no 'retvrn' to anything the evangelical authoritarians want, and thinking there will be is part of the delusion of the fringe right.

Because Salem is only one example, and one that's been used by the Left so often as a cudgel to bash Christendom that it's played out, rote, boring. I need something modern because you're acting like theocracy is one uncensored opinion away here, that's far more current.

You have no place to make demands and keep rejecting/limiting my examples, just because the ones I used are 'old'. I do not give one fuck if you think it is 'boring', it is a legit example and one still relevant to modern pop culture and informs American politics.

The Constitution is 'old', yet we do not treat it as irrelevant.

Okay, how do you know?

Well, I can definitely say not condemning racists asshats when asked about them tends to get you lumped in with them, even after the fact, as anyone who remembers the SB PM can attest.

Or did you forget the grief Odo caused people who joined that PM, even after he was gone? Or the bullshit Whitestrake or Lindy used to push here?

Oh, I forget, you were one of the ones who wanted me to make nice with Invictus and Fried despite their bullshit. So of course you care more about being nice to those types than calling them out.

 

[Curved_Sw0rd]

Yes, I can, because they are wanna-be authoritarian asshats disguising it all under religious reasoning, and I know better than to trust those sorts with power.

There will be no 'retvrn' to anything the evangelical authoritarians want, and thinking there will be is part of the delusion of the fringe right.

Who do you trust with power? You dislike the Left, the "Far-Right" (As defined by the Left), who do you actually trust?

You have no place to make demands and keep rejecting/limiting my examples, just because the ones I used are 'old'. I do not give one fuck if you think it is 'boring', it is a legit example and one still relevant to modern pop culture and informs American politics.

The Constitution is 'old', yet we do not treat it as irrelevant.

And yet I'm actually curious about these more modern examples because you clearly have more to worry about than just Salem happening over again. You're clearly motivated, none of this is fake. I just want to know why, don't assume I follow the same news or podcasts you do.

Well, I can definitely say not condemning racists asshats when asked about them tends to get you lumped in with them, even after the fact, as anyone who remembers the SB PM can attest.

Or did you forget the grief Odo caused people who joined that PM, even after he was gone? Or the bullshit Whitestrake or Lindy used to push here?

You were going to be lumped in with racist asshats regardless of how squeaky clean the PM could've been, even if the mods had ruled with an iron fist and kept everything tip top magoo. That's just how the Left works, man. They don't care how polite you are, like how you regard the religious they have no intention of giving you the benefit of the doubt and have skepticism for days.

Oh, I forget, you were one of the ones who wanted me to make nice with Invictus and Fried despite their bullshit. So of course you care more about being nice to those types than calling them out.

There are no Leftists here to win over, and the fact they're burned into your memory so hard makes me think you think of them a lot more than they think of you, even though Fried and Whitestrake basically vanished. And a Centrist that's willing to leave over them? All it takes is one "Trump is GigaNazi" headline on the news at the right time for them to ride with Biden. It's fairweather friend bullshit and it's beneath your dignity to defend it.

 

[King Arts]

I would prefer having neither, again Liberty and Freedom of the individual is all I care about and dictatorships as well as authoritarian banana republics don't have any.

Yes both the flu and cancer aids suck. Best to have neither but if there is one person trying to push the flu and two others trying to spread cancer aids. I’m not going to join hands with the cancer aids people to block the flu guy. You can’t have everything so sometimes it’s better to prioritize and allow minor harm to beat stronger enemies.

 

[Marduk]

I see you aren't denying that parts of the Right want to force religion back into secular places, and just trying to deflect from that.

Because the fact parts of the Right do want to force religion back into secular areas of society is exactly why people do still fear the evangelical right becoming just as bad as the current Leftists, if that section of the right gain the power's they want.

And that 5%, 10% or so of mostly old Bible thumpers are going to rule the right how exactly?
By that logic, parts of the left want us in a gulag, so sorry, but i consider that a bigger problem.
Are we supposed to obsess about those parts of the right and consider them "just as bad as current Leftists" until literally the last one of them dies?
Have some fucking sense of scale.

Stop the presses, some 100 people from an extra paleoconservative church in a 340 million country had some stupid opinion, we have to pause fighting the left to deal with that!

 

[Captain X]

I ask because it's not the Religious Right that's going to dox you. It's not the Religious Right that'll get you fired from your job.

That is exactly the kind of behavior they used to participate in, up to the immediate post 9/11 era.

 

[Bacle]

Who do you trust with power? You dislike the Left, the "Far-Right" (As defined by the Left), who do you actually trust?

Rand Paul, Joe Rogan, Woody Harrelson, Morgan Freeman, RFK Jr., Gina Carano.

I trust those I know live in the center, and are willing to punch left and right as need, and do not toe the party line with any side.

And yet I'm actually curious about these more modern examples because you clearly have more to worry about than just Salem happening over again. You're clearly motivated, none of this is fake. I just want to know why, don't assume I follow the same news or podcasts you do.

My feeling and views on religious authoritarians aren't because of any podcast, they are mostly lived experience and seeing what religious places/people have done to people I cared about.

I'll even give you one that I can say directly hurt one of my friends as a kid; he went to a religious school instead of public school till about middle school, and had a learning disabilitu/severe dyslexia that the religious school didn't help him with.

The teachers at the religious school just harassed him, belittled him for not being able to read very well, and they didn't try at all to be sympathetic about his difficulties, difficulties he could not help. I can very much say that if he had gone to the same public schools I did, his condition would have been caught earlier and he would have been resources to help him, without the shaming and belittling he endured at the religious school.

You were going to be lumped in with racist asshats regardless of how squeaky clean the PM could've been, even if the mods had ruled with an iron fist and kept everything tip top magoo. That's just how the Left works, man. They don't care how polite you are, like how you regard the religious they have no intention of giving you the benefit of the doubt and have skepticism for days.

And the right could you know, gate keep against assholes like that a little bit more, so they stop inviting more problems than needed.

There are no Leftists here to win over, and the fact they're burned into your memory so hard makes me think you think of them a lot more than they think of you, even though Fried and Whitestrake basically vanished. And a Centrist that's willing to leave over them? All it takes is one "Trump is GigaNazi" headline on the news at the right time for them to ride with Biden. It's fairweather friend bullshit and it's beneath your dignity to defend it.

I mention those cunts as recent and living examples of why we have to be willing to punch right, since you didn't want to hear about Salem Witch Trials and the Scopes Monkey Trial.

And yes, they are rather burned into my memory, because they are great examples of why the fringe Right who hurt the overall movement and drive away moderates and centrists, plus as success stories of driving away a damaging fringe that was hurting this site and the movement overall.

And maybe you don't get it, but it's not what the Left thinks of me that drive what I do, it's what I think of myself.

And that 5%, 10% or so of mostly old Bible thumpers are going to rule the right how exactly?
By that logic, parts of the left want us in a gulag, so sorry, but i consider that a bigger problem.
Are we supposed to obsess about those parts of the right and consider them "just as bad as current Leftists" until literally the last one of them dies?
Have some fucking sense of scale.

Stop the presses, some 100 people from an extra paleoconservative church in a 340 million country had some stupid opinion, we have to pause fighting the left to deal with that!

Guess what, PR battles don't really care how small the proportion is, only how vocal and how well positioned to influence a wider audience a person or group is.

And the Right has continued to pretend that it can just ignore the PR battles that matter to fence sitters and the undecided, if they focus on the 'base' enough.

Notice how centrists and moderates are pretty much automatically conflated with Leftists in both @Curved_Sw0rd and your arguments?

There are people besides the fringes of either side involved in politics, and the center is where the power is, not the fringes.

 

[Curved_Sw0rd]

Rand Paul, Joe Rogan, Woody Harrelson, Morgan Freeman, RFK Jr., Gina Carano.

I trust those I know live in the center, and are willing to punch left and right as need, and do not toe the party line with any side.

The problem there is the Center moves, once upon a time Obama was against gay marriage, yes? The Left continues pushing the line more and more more, a lot of people you consider Right today would've been considered wild Progressives in days past.

When it gets down to it what is your line in the sand? When do you get sick of the Leftward drift? The way I see it this is just Leftism but slower. Driving the speed limit.

My feeling and views on religious authoritarians aren't because of any podcast, they are mostly lived experience and seeing what religious places/people have done to people I cared about.

I'll even give you one that I can say directly hurt one of my friends as a kid; he went to a religious school instead of public school till about middle school, and had a learning disabilitu/severe dyslexia that the religious school didn't help him with.

The teachers at the religious school just harassed him, belittled him for not being able to read very well, and they didn't try at all to be sympathetic about his difficulties, difficulties he could not help. I can very much say that if he had gone to the same public schools I did, his condition would have been caught earlier and he would have been resources to help him, without the shaming and belittling he endured at the religious school.

How much did religion actually play into that? Was it motivated by religion or was it just an asshole? Because public schools have a plethora of dipshit assholes as well, it's not unique to religious schools.

And the right could you know, gate keep against assholes like that a little bit more, so they stop inviting more problems than needed.

That doesn't address my point. No amount of keeping it respectable is enough. The knife fights are pointless.

I mention those cunts as recent and living examples of why we have to be willing to punch right, since you didn't want to hear about Salem Witch Trials and the Scopes Monkey Trial.

And yes, they are rather burned into my memory, because they are great examples of why the fringe Right who hurt the overall movement and drive away moderates and centrists, plus as success stories of driving away a damaging fringe that was hurting this site and the movement overall.

And maybe you don't get it, but it's not what the Left thinks of me that drive what I do, it's what I think of myself.

Did you even play a part in getting them to leave? Was even anyone's decision but their own? You sound like you're straight from SV.

 

[Marduk]

Guess what, PR battles don't really care how small the proportion is, only how vocal and how well positioned to influence a wider audience a person or group is.

But few posts ago you were saying how even average conservative movement has issues in winning elections so bad it basically needs to become the center-left...
How are these fringe people ever going to get even half a wider audience?
Who the hell even wants to listen to them that doesn't already?

And the Right has continued to pretend that it can just ignore the PR battles that matter to fence sitters and the undecided, if they focus on the 'base' enough.

Who gives a shit about some weird 100 people church? The very fact it is a PR battle at all is an achievement of leftist media. They are the one who love to talk about those. And if they have nothing like that to talk about, they will some group of 10 wannabe KKK holdouts to obsess about.
And if they can't find even 1 crazy street corner preacher, they will invent something a'la the garage noose or Smollett.
There is just no winning with these people. They are commie propagandists. That's the war they wage.
If you love calling people out so much, call them out.

Notice how centrists and moderates are pretty much automatically conflated with Leftists in both @Curved_Sw0rd and your arguments?

Notice how you conflate a very famous and vocal Labour supporter with a classical liberal? If you want to lecture people about getting better political perception, you're not the right person to do it.

There are people besides the fringes of either side involved in politics, and the center is where the power is, not the fringes.

There is manpower in the center, not power. Turning it into some sort of power means convincing them to have some strong opinions which will make them stop being so moderate at all and actually support our side.

 

[Bacle]

The problem there is the Center moves, once upon a time Obama was against gay marriage, yes? The Left continues pushing the line more and more more, a lot of people you consider Right today would've been considered wild Progressives in days past.

When it gets down to it what is your line in the sand? When do you get sick of the Leftward drift? The way I see it this is just Leftism but slower. Driving the speed limit.

Line in the sand for what?

And frankly, maybe shit wouldn't drift Leftward so much if those trying to push it right stopped shooting themselves in the foot PR wise, and learned to adapt, instead of demanding the world stop changing.

Change is the only constant in the universe, no matter how much parts of the GOP don't want to admit it.

How much did religion actually play into that? Was it motivated by religion or was it just an asshole? Because public schools have a plethora of dipshit assholes as well, it's not unique to religious schools.

It was a religious Christian school, he was harassed by more than one teacher, and I know that for all the failing of public schools, helping kids with severe dyslexia is something they have a lot of experience with and don't shame the students about it unless they want to get fired.

That doesn't address my point. No amount of keeping it respectable is enough. The knife fights are pointless.

It's only pointless if the goal is to just allow the fringe of the Right to dictate what the rest of the Right has to deal with, without pushback.

Did you even play a part in getting them to leave? Was even anyone's decision but their own? You sound like you're straight from SV.

Well, given I did report them multiple times for stuff that got them infracted, and know where to get the receipts from their stupid if they want to come back (like what happened last time with Fried), I'd say yes, I helped get them gone and am proud of it.

But few posts ago you were saying how even average conservative movement has issues in winning elections so bad it basically needs to become the center-left...
How are these fringe people ever going to get even half a wider audience?
Who the hell even wants to listen to them that doesn't already?

It's not about 'wanting' to listen to them, it's about centrists/moderates hearing their takes, and associating it with the GOP base, when that base doesn't push back against those sorts.

Who gives a shit about some weird 100 people church? The very fact it is a PR battle at all is an achievement of leftist media. They are the one who love to talk about those. And if they have nothing like that to talk about, they will some group of 10 wannabe KKK holdouts to obsess about.
And if they can't find even 1 crazy street corner preacher, they will invent something a'la the garage noose or Smollett.
There is just no winning with these people. They are commie propagandists. That's the war they wage.
If you love calling people out so much, call them out.

Uh, I do call out the crazies on the Left and the liars in the media, rather regularly.

However, it's not all just commie propaganda that causes harm tot the Right; sometimes the Right shoots itself in the foot and has an unforced error.

Trying to reduce the amount of unforced errors is why Punching Right is important, because a lot of those unforced errors originate in that fringe, or in people listening to that fringe and acting on it.

Notice how you conflate a very famous and vocal Labour supporter with a classical liberal? If you want to lecture people about getting better political perception, you're not the right person to do it.

Eh, by US standards Labour is...not really commies, more like old school union Democrats/Blue Dogs. So yes, I stand by my view Rowling is a classical liberal by today's standards, even if the Right wing fringe disagrees.

There is manpower in the center, not power. Turning it into some sort of power means convincing them to have some strong opinions which will make them stop being so moderate at all and actually support our side.

Elections are not won by subtractions, when elections are fair, and the numbers in the middle, the swing voters and fence-sitters, are the ones that decide most races in the US outside of 'safe' districts.

 

[Curved_Sw0rd]

Line in the sand for what?

And frankly, maybe shit wouldn't drift Leftward so much if those trying to push it right stopped shooting themselves in the foot PR wise, and learned to adapt, instead of demanding the world stop changing.

Change is the only constant in the universe, no matter how much parts of the GOP don't want to admit it.

Do you think the constant Leftward drift is a good thing in light of the lack of restraint?

It was a religious Christian school, he was harassed by more than one teacher, and I know that for all the failing of public schools, helping kids with severe dyslexia is something they have a lot of experience with and don't shame the students about it unless they want to get fired.

Is that enough evidence for you that it was religiously motivated? It really isn't for me.

It's only pointless if the goal is to just allow the fringe of the Right to dictate what the rest of the Right has to deal with, without pushback.

What you consider fringe isn't even a unique idea to you. It's informed by Leftist schools, Leftist ideas, you're letting your opponents set the frame and set the goals. Do you even consider yourself part of the Right? If not then why do you think you have skin in the game at all?

 

[Marduk]

It's not about 'wanting' to listen to them, it's about centrists/moderates hearing their takes, and associating it with the GOP base, when that base doesn't push back against those sorts.

But there is nothing to push back against except for ghosts of past centuries...
But if both left and right agree on the merit of shadowboxing these ghosts, such behavior from real, living people may actually convince someone that there is something material to this ghost.

As i said, the only solution to this problem is to have some very, very stern words with those who decide what are centrists/moderates hearing of, and explain themselves publicly why are they hearing of such things instead of far more relevant topics.

Uh, I do call out the crazies on the Left and the liars in the media, rather regularly.

However, it's not all just commie propaganda that causes harm tot the Right; sometimes the Right shoots itself in the foot and has an unforced error.

What? By not constantly self-flagellating about religious hardliners from centuries ago and the barely noticeable shadows of politics of 100 years ago? No, that's not an error, that's common sense.

Eh, by US standards Labour is...not really commies, more like old school union Democrats/Blue Dogs. So yes, I stand by my view Rowling is a classical liberal by today's standards, even if the Right wing fringe disagrees.

Dude, they are leftist by UK's standards... Blue Dogs of times past would be considered closer to the Tories.
Yes, they aren't commies, but no, they are not liberals either, because they are just plain ol' socialists, closer to Sanders and AOC than any classical liberal.
Socialists are not classical liberals, and if you think they are, you need to start from zero in your political knowledge.

Elections are not won by subtractions, when elections are fair, and the numbers in the middle, the swing voters and fence-sitters, are the ones that decide most races in the US outside of 'safe' districts.

Unfortunately... But pulling off victories by the skin of their teeth should not be the main way to win elections long term for the right, and that's what it entails. The big victories mean pulling good few percent at least out of the middle for good. Winning battles is nice, but in long term it's more about winning the war.

 

[Curved_Sw0rd]

To try to put it more simply, let's examine two types of Centrist. Those who give a shit about being called Nazis, being lumped in with Nazis, being falsely accused of being Nazis, who are willing to accept accusations of Nazism against other people with the Left's frame.

And then there are those who don't give a shit. Who reject the Left's frame entirely or otherwise disbelieve. These are the people who can actually be reached when you have no enemies on the Right. The other group?

Not so much. If anything they become functional Leftists, willing to turn a blind eye to the use of power big or small against those the Left paints with that brush. There's also a population of Righties that also care what the Left thinks and wants to police the Right so the Left will pass them over on the doxxing/firing/slandering front.

Peterson can tell you all about how that worked out.

Punching Right, policing people opposed to the Left in terms of rhetoric or association, that only, and only, benefits the Left. Full stop. Centrist 1 is useless. Centrist 2 doesn't need all this proof of not being Nazis to recognize the Left as being deeply fucked up. Those Righties who still care? They too are useless or shooting other people in the foot for people who legitimately want their kids castrated.

 

[Bacle]

Do you think the constant Leftward drift is a good thing in light of the lack of restraint?

Why do you keep dodging my critiques, my questions, and just asking more leading questions of your own?

Is it because you don't want to have to defend your own fringe definitions, and want to instead try to force me to meet your continuously shifting and limiting evidentiary standards?

I know the 'rules for radicals' too, this shit won't fly with me.

Is that enough evidence for you that it was religiously motivated? It really isn't for me.

I've presented what happend; people do not tend to become teachers at religious schools unless they share those beliefs and are willing to try to use them in the schooling itself.

What you consider fringe isn't even a unique idea to you. It's informed by Leftist schools, Leftist ideas, you're letting your opponents set the frame and set the goals. Do you even consider yourself part of the Right? If not then why do you think you have skin in the game at all?

No, I know what the fringe looks like, and you are the one insisting I do not understand.

But there is nothing to push back against except for ghosts of past centuries...
But if both left and right agree on the merit of shadowboxing these ghosts, such behavior from real, living people may actually convince someone that there is something material to this ghost.

Well, the problem here is thinking of these things as 'ghosts' to begin with; the legacy of the Salem Witch Trials and the Scopes Monkey Trial, along with some other issues (anti-evolution rhetoric in general, hindering geology due to contest the flood myth, religious folks losing their shit over Halloween) is stil very much alive.

The issue of religious authoritarian tendencies is part of why the US enshrined Freedom or Religion into the Constitution, so as to avoid the sectarian religious wars that had riddled Europe for centuries.

Actually, the Halloween example is a great one, with a good pop culture example; you know what King of the Hill is right?


The sort of religious nuttery that Hank goes against here, with Bible Thumpers trying to ruin Halloween, is a great example of the reason people fear religious authoritarians gaining power.

As i said, the only solution to this problem is to have some very, very stern words with those who decide what are centrists/moderates hearing of, and explain themselves publicly why are they hearing of such things instead of far more relevant topics.

Well I agree with the general idea of this, I just don't think calling people like Rowling 'shitlibs' will make it easier to open moderate/centrist minds.

What? By not constantly self-flagellating about religious hardliners from centuries ago and the barely noticeable shadows of politics of 100 years ago? No, that's not an error, that's common sense.

You might be surprised how much good political/social self-reflection can do for PR, in the US.

Yeah, it won't change the minds of hardcore Leftists, but those aren't the target audience, the center is.

Dude, they are leftist by UK's standards... Blue Dogs of times past would be considered closer to the Tories.
Yes, they aren't commies, but no, they are not liberals either, because they are just plain ol' socialists, closer to Sanders and AOC than any classical liberal.
Socialists are not classical liberals, and if you think they are, you need to start from zero in your political knowledge.

I'd say that there needs to be a discussion about the difference between 'supports workers right to organize and bargain' types vs 'men can be women' types.

Both get labeled 'socialist' on this board, but only one of them usually is.

Part of the problem is this boards idea of what is 'Leftist' usually is anyone to the Left of Rand Paul, which is just as much BS as anyone to the Right of Sanders being a Nazi.

Unfortunately... But pulling off victories by the skin of their teeth should not be the main way to win elections long term for the right, and that's what it entails. The big victories mean pulling good few percent at least out of the middle for good. Winning battles is nice, but in long term it's more about winning the war.

Right now the GOP in the US doesn't have the ability to do more than win by the skin of it's teeth, as the Red Ripple showed. It cannot afford to lose any of the center at this point, or the Dems will get all 3 branches sown up again and start on SCOTUS.

The Right cannot win the long term, till it stops shooting itself in the foot in the short term, never mind the rolling back Leftists actions against it.

The electoral college and first past the post system is not likely to change, and swing voters/districts are not all that variable in location, cycle to cycle.

 

[Bacle]

Ok, there is a great way to understand where fears about not punch left come from in modern pop culture, too.



Edward Sallow is a great example of the sort of mindset that many people in the middle fear is the end-state the fringe of the Right desires, with Caesar's Legion being the sort of 'trad, based' method of living and governing many on the Right's fringe would probably accept as a societal end-state.

 

[Terthna]

And that 5%, 10% or so of mostly old Bible thumpers are going to rule the right how exactly?
By that logic, parts of the left want us in a gulag, so sorry, but i consider that a bigger problem.
Are we supposed to obsess about those parts of the right and consider them "just as bad as current Leftists" until literally the last one of them dies?
Have some fucking sense of scale.

Stop the presses, some 100 people from an extra paleoconservative church in a 340 million country had some stupid opinion, we have to pause fighting the left to deal with that!

How much effort do you think it takes to condemn "some 100 people from an extra paleoconservative church", exactly?

We're not the regressive left; our goal isn't to hound their every waking moment, making their lives miserable. Just don't ignore what they're all about in favor of tribal loyalty, and don't hand them power they will inevitably try to use against you.

 

[Cherico]

It's only 'obselete' because large secitons of society got tired of the evangelical authoritarians screwing with everyone's day, and pushed religious power out of the public/political sphere as much as possible.

Just because commies are the current threat, does not mean that theocratic authoritarians aren't hoping to take power riding on a wave of backlash, a backlash many fringe right folks here have celebrated as being nearly inevitable.

Or have you missed the repeated 'predictions' by people like @Cherico and others about how the 'Right Wing backlash in decades will be harsh and unforgiving towards degeneracy/social experimentation.'

Yes I have said this.

I think its pretty much envitable that we will have a reaction against all of this.

We are currently in that small window of time when this can all be solved peacefully. We passed the point where we could solve this by simply firing people. We are now in the period of time where to solve this peacefully a lot of very rich and important people have to be thrown into prison. A lot of government officials need to not only be sacked but put into prison.

Were talking about an utterly painful few years here but that might just prevent what I see coming. Thats what the right can do to prevent this.

The other way to prevent what I see coming, is the left sits down and has a very serious period of self reflection they actually go in reform and clean house. They start treating their political opponets with honor and respect and agree to disagree and I don't see any will or inclination for that at all.

Your ideas are well meaning but they honestly make things worse in the long run, because action reaction. The longer an establishment heaps abuses upon a populace the more dispised they become, and once it hits a tipping point said establishment is fucked.

That tipping point is roughly 20% of the population, we are currently at ten percent on the rights side. Conservatives have 2 children for every 1 the left has and before you bring up immigration. This is a global thing, as in the entire world is going through this issue.

Even the third world is aging, in a world where you heavily penalize people for having children only the religious continue to have children. And while the left owns the insitutions now? How about 20 years from now? 40 years from now? Now imagine those children having watched their parents suffer, having watched their grandparents suffer, having suffered themselves from the corruption of what they see as a godless establishement who they dispise.


The there are two routes to prevent the nightmare senserio you fear, one is hold the left accountable today, the other is the left reforms themselves now and makes an effort to be a lot kinder to the people its mistreated, and I don't see any desire for the later.

 

[Aldarion]

Ah, was wondering when the monarhcist would show up.

Just because commies are bad, does not make religious zealots an ok option.

And there are more options than that in the US, because the Libertarian party does exist, and if the GOP goes full evangelical authortiarian, then the Libertarians become the last refuge of sane people.

No, but you have to prioritize. If you try and handle every single threat at once, you will exhaust yourself fighting mostly irrelevant and/or less important threats (traditional religious zealots) and then you will not be able to face a more significant threat (Progressives, Marxists and other postmodernist religious zealots).

As I said: if traditional religious zealots achieve their goals, yes, it will be bad, but it is not the end of the world. In other words, whatever damage they do, can be fixed. If Progressives achieve their goals, it is the end of the world, because their goal is nothing short of outright destruction of society itself. Progressivism and other forms of today's Marxism are worse than even Stalinism, because they are wholly nihilistic in nature.

 

[Largo]

I'll take a Christian theocracy over our current leftist insanity 100% of the time.

They would at least follow the rule of law and be very against corruption. Unless they weren't actually following Christ, in which case we would still be better off than we are now.

*Stares at Iran*

That tipping point is roughly 20% of the population, we are currently at ten percent on the rights side. Conservatives have 2 children for every 1 the left has and before you bring up immigration. This is a global thing, as in the entire world is going through this issue.

Even the third world is aging, in a world where you heavily penalize people for having children only the religious continue to have children. And while the left owns the insitutions now? How about 20 years from now? 40 years from now? Now imagine those children having watched their parents suffer, having watched their grandparents suffer, having suffered themselves from the corruption of what they see as a godless establishement who they dispise.

The assumption here is that the children of conservatives will stay conservative, despite the influence of schools, media, etc. And the fact that your only counter to this "Hey, maybe they won't be such a big influence in 20 years from now" says a lot. Maybe the Chinese conquer the US in 20-40 years if we're just throwing out random shit.

"Demographics is destiny" is stupid shit when coming from the left, it's stupid here as well.

 

[Marduk]

Well, the problem here is thinking of these things as 'ghosts' to begin with; the legacy of the Salem Witch Trials and the Scopes Monkey Trial, along with some other issues (anti-evolution rhetoric in general, hindering geology due to contest the flood myth, religious folks losing their shit over Halloween) is stil very much alive.

How? Politically these ideas have negligible support. Medially... well, again, we have to ask the question *who* keeps it alive, cui bono? And in that is your answer.

The issue of religious authoritarian tendencies is part of why the US enshrined Freedom or Religion into the Constitution, so as to avoid the sectarian religious wars that had riddled Europe for centuries.

And yet now the only sect seriously threatening strife on that ground is the totally-not-religion of intersectional left.

Actually, the Halloween example is a great one, with a good pop culture example; you know what King of the Hill is right?


The sort of religious nuttery that Hank goes against here, with Bible Thumpers trying to ruin Halloween, is a great example of the reason people fear religious authoritarians gaining power.

My point exactly. This matter gets a whole lot of attention from media, cultural and political figures... But where is the real political matter behind it? Media attention like this could potentially be given to keep "legacies" alive that are irrelevant since millenia.

Well I agree with the general idea of this, I just don't think calling people like Rowling 'shitlibs' will make it easier to open moderate/centrist minds.

Calling a spade a spade is unfortunately something that their minds need to get used to.

You might be surprised how much good political/social self-reflection can do for PR, in the US.

Yeah, it won't change the minds of hardcore Leftists, but those aren't the target audience, the center is.

PR is relative. In this case, absolutely, but to all the wrong people.

Criticism and self-criticism (Marxism–Leninism) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'd say that there needs to be a discussion about the difference between 'supports workers right to organize and bargain' types vs 'men can be women' types.

Both get labeled 'socialist' on this board, but only one of them usually is.

Part of the problem is this boards idea of what is 'Leftist' usually is anyone to the Left of Rand Paul, which is just as much BS as anyone to the Right of Sanders being a Nazi.

Yes, the difference is progressivism. But even non-progressive socialists can be absolute scum. Trust me, ex-WP block is full of those. They may not want to neuter kids, but they still do want to ruin your economy, limit your freedoms, and often also simp for KGB. In this case we're not even talking of non-progressive one, but merely a bit less progressive than the other socialists.

Right now the GOP in the US doesn't have the ability to do more than win by the skin of it's teeth, as the Red Ripple showed. It cannot afford to lose any of the center at this point, or the Dems will get all 3 branches sown up again and start on SCOTUS.

The Right cannot win the long term, till it stops shooting itself in the foot in the short term, never mind the rolling back Leftists actions against it.

The problem is that the Right will always, in the minds of certain naive people, be shooting itself in the foot, at least until it starts shooting the left in the media, because that's where such people keep getting this impression from, while it's put there very intentionally by people who most definitely do not want the right to win anything ever.

How much effort do you think it takes to condemn "some 100 people from an extra paleoconservative church", exactly?

We're not the regressive left; our goal isn't to hound their every waking moment, making their lives miserable. Just don't ignore what they're all about in favor of tribal loyalty, and don't hand them power they will inevitably try to use against you.

It's the same as with Trump being asked about "white supremacy" every week. It's to take away attention, make the other side implicitly confirm that they have something to do with the fringe, and make them talk about the fringes instead of anything more relevant politically.
Guess what would happen if Fox News people were running around and demanding prominent democrats condemn Marxism every time the far left does or says something.

*Stares at Iran*

Ah, yes, Iran, a very Christian theocracy, obviously run by the Council of Bishops.

The assumption here is that the children of conservatives will stay conservative, despite the influence of schools, media, etc. And the fact that your only counter to this "Hey, maybe they won't be such a big influence in 20 years from now" says a lot. Maybe the Chinese conquer the US in 20-40 years if we're just throwing out random shit.

"Demographics is destiny" is stupid shit when coming from the left, it's stupid here as well.

True, certainly some will stay conservative... But that's just one factor, while there are many, and if school and media indoctrination had no effect no one would be wasting efforts on doing it anymore.

 

[Bigking321]

I'll take a Christian theocracy over our current leftist insanity 100% of the time.

*Stares at Iran*

You think Iran is a Christian theocracy?!?