Crossover Muggles in Harry Potter

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
I guarantee you that you just pulled that out of your ass without the slightest understanding of the forces involved.

Go on, tell me by what metric you came to the conclusion that you'd need a BMG round to penetrate the spider, I fucking dare you.
Given that spidersilk has the ability to -if replicated to our dimensions- tell pistol and -if I remember correctly- non-AP rifle bullets where to stuff it depending on thickness and the fact that the chitin of an insect -when sized to our dimensions- would tell pistols and rifles -if I remember correctly- where to stuff it as well...

... yeah. The problem is that I don't have the articles on hand, lost quite a bit when I switched desktops.
 

Spartan303

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Given that spidersilk has the ability to -if replicated to our dimensions- tell pistol and -if I remember correctly- non-AP rifle bullets where to stuff it depending on thickness and the fact that the chitin of an insect -when sized to our dimensions- would tell pistols and rifles -if I remember correctly- where to stuff it as well...

... yeah. The problem is that I don't have the articles on hand, lost quite a bit when I switched desktops.

That's assuming the hide of the Spider is anywhere near as strong as its silk. Which isn't a certainty by any stretch. But again, Rowling refuses to give us jars numbers or anything to say one way or another.
 

PeliusAnar

Well-known member
The problem with HP Wizards comes down to utility, ability to adapt, and numbers. First lets look at utility. The vast majority of spells and enchantments aren't combat focused. Most settings, both magical and sci-fi don't have such a wide scope of abilities. The biggest ones that come to mind are all the spells related to the mind, potions, transfiguration, and teleportation. Mind spells basically allow you to get any information you want. Potions fill in all the sub-gabs like luck, disguise, ect. Transfiguration allows an HP wizard to basically tell the world to fuck off either by destroying or by creating minions. Teleportation creates an incredible ease of movement either through apparition or portkeys. The sheer number of options wizards have is insane. It only gets worse when you consider divination is real and time turners.

Wizards have an ability to adapt. While their culture seems stagnant, it is clearly possible to develop new spells seen by Severus and the Marauders. The most logical guess on why not everyone is innovating is the danger, aka Luna's Mom, and there being little to no point. There is a limit to how many spells that are needed. The thing is though, when they want a spell they can make one. Voldemort wanted a dark signal in the air, you got Morsmorde. He didn't need to invent a killing curse because there already was one. So wizards can adapt, it just not worth the effort most of the time. That is probably why we see so many new brooms, wizards be crazy about them brooms.

The last issue in a conflict is numbers. An adult HP Wizard has enough power to completely crush most opponents in any setting. If you look at Marvel, there are what, 20 iron man suits, let's say Tony stockpiles and has 100 at most. There are still thousands of wizards. Sure not all of them are the best, but there are way more of them than groups that depend on unique abilities. Even if you nuke Hogwarts and other main locations, there are still hundreds of homes scattered all about that you have to locate. Even Goyle can apparate and use fiendfyre, which clearly shows any wizard can do it.

So wizards would win, hands down. I would say the only true challenge would be a robotic society. Where there are no minds and the robots have reflexes to counter wizards the couple of seconds they are disoriented when they teleport in. The wizards can't mind control from the top of the organization and teleporting in can be countered. Think SKYNET. Even then it would be an incredibly ugly battle. Wizards would teleport in and unleash wide range attacks from hidden bases while SKYNET would counter with nuclear weapons in attempt for area saturation. Wizards would narrow down their targets from the range where robots are coming from while SKYNET narrows down the wizards location by the range of apparition and saturating areas with radiation to block them off to wizards. Hard to say who would win in the end, but everyone else would be a burned radioactive crisp. That is the problem with wizards. The only way to fight them is with area of effect weapons on a macro scale.

As for the earlier points about Wizards viewing muggle as retarded children. This is clearly the case. Even the most pro-muggle person Hermione, believes her own parent's can't handle wizards and mind rapes them. She doesn't see them as equals or worthy of talking things with. The statute is there to protect muggles from wizards, not the other way around.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
You also have to understand that magic isn't safe if you don't know what you're doing. Wands are not only a tool, but they're also a safety measure as well. All those funny/cartoonish incidents they show in the books and movies? They're treatable in the 'modern-day' because wands give consistency and made the screwups less horrible. Pre-Wand, it is implied, has spell screwups to be more consistently like what happened to Luna's mother (i.e. deader than dead, likely in a messy way). I wouldn't be surprised that a small fraction of the magical creatures are made up of magicals that were descendants of incurable screwups that didn't kill them.

Wands -and spells that essentially go into the wand's 'spell history'- not only made these screwups survivable but also reversible. If anything, wands lower the floor and raise the ceiling as it were.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
Given that spidersilk has the ability to
"Spiders are made out of silk"
Shocking and brave revelations at play here.

Given that spidersilk has the ability to -if replicated to our dimensions- tell pistol and -if I remember correctly- non-AP rifle bullets where to stuff it depending on thickness
Depending on thickness, what a meaningless fucking phrase. Depending on thickness anything stops any bullet.
Pistols, rifles, AP, Non AP, you dont know anything about guns, do you? Do you? You know absolutely nothing about what bullets will penetrate what and to what degree.


the fact that the chitin of an insect -when sized to our dimensions- would tell pistols and rifles -if I remember correctly- where to stuff it as well...
What dimensions. What thickness. How thick are the exoskeletons of the spiders. What pistols. What rifles. Based on what. What the fuck are you on about?


... yeah. The problem is that I don't have the articles on hand, lost quite a bit when I switched desktops.
You dont have shit and you never did.



How about this big guy. One of the spiders, of similar or larger scale than the average ones at the battle of hogwarts, was grappling with Ron Weasley for like a full ten seconds and diddnt manage to say... oh... tear his head clean off despite having him leveraged against a metal door and having a firm grip all the way around his fucking neck. This probably suggests a creature not fantastically stronger than animals of similar size, if that, considering even a fucking coyote would have torn a fist sized hole in him by then.




The last issue in a conflict is numbers. An adult HP Wizard has enough power to completely crush most opponents in any setting. If you look at Marvel, there are what, 20 iron man suits, let's say Tony stockpiles and has 100 at most.
What a bizarre nonsequitur. An adult HP wizard is most certainly not enough to crush "most opponents in any setting" and how Tony Stark's ability to not annihilate all of Wizarding culture down to the last man singlehandedly ties into that is unclear.
 

PeliusAnar

Well-known member
What a bizarre nonsequitur. An adult HP wizard is most certainly not enough to crush "most opponents in any setting" and how Tony Stark's ability to not annihilate all of Wizarding culture down to the last man singlehandedly ties into that is unclear.
It is a point about numbers and powers. In most power based settings there isn't a society of power based people, if there is then the number tends to be very small, under 100. Even settings that have force multipliers like Tony Stark have no where near the numbers that wizards do, even after factoring in non-combatants, old, young, ect. If 100 wizards teleported to 100 different cities at the same time and used fiendfyre and then teleported out, the sheer scope of things makes it impossible to contain. Like the first Avengers Movie, with the invasion of NY, imagine if 100 different cities were invaded at the same time.

If you say wizards can't crush most opponents in any setting, then you need to explain how there is any capability to fight back. Only something at the level of SKYNET or something on a multi-planetary level would have a chance against wizarding society. I won't list all the insane advantages they have again. That is the problem with only looking at a tiny portion of what I wrote.
 

Lanmandragon

Well-known member
You also have to understand that magic isn't safe if you don't know what you're doing. Wands are not only a tool, but they're also a safety measure as well. All those funny/cartoonish incidents they show in the books and movies? They're treatable in the 'modern-day' because wands give consistency and made the screwups less horrible. Pre-Wand, it is implied, has spell screwups to be more consistently like what happened to Luna's mother (i.e. deader than dead, likely in a messy way). I wouldn't be surprised that a small fraction of the magical creatures are made up of magicals that were descendants of incurable screwups that didn't kill them.

Wands -and spells that essentially go into the wand's 'spell history'- not only made these screwups survivable but also reversible. If anything, wands lower the floor and raise the ceiling as it were.
There's a family who turned themselves into some animal. I can't recall which but it's definitely a thing.
 
D

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I think one key thing to bear in mind is that the wizarding world has systematically created psychological conditions in humanity to make muggles incapable of handling the existence of magic, which is part of where the vulnerability to Wizards and inability of non-magical means to be effective in fighting magic comes from. If you were to shatter the veil between the wizarding world and the rest of the world (ironically in the way that Voldemort was planning to do!), then this would be massively psychologically traumatizing to muggle-kind, but after the initial blow, which probably lets Voldemort literally conquer half the world, muggles would begin to resist with increasing strength and power as they become aware of the rules of the magical world and psychologically accept it. Now, that resistance would be doomed, because of the sheer potential power of wizards... Unless wizards were also fighting on the side of the still-resisting part of humanity. That would provide those muggles with the time and breathing room to, integrated with the remaining anti-Voldemort wizards, become an immensely powerful anti-Wizard force.
 
D

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So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that 10,000 wizards and a 2 million man Army could probably defeat 100,000 wizards. But a 2 million man Army couldn't do anything against 1,000 wizards. Oh, a fair number of total idiots, because the Wizarding world certainly has those, would be killed, but it would be like the couple of Martian Walkers taken out en ambuscade in "War of the Worlds", it would make muggles feel very good about themselves but wouldn't do anything to change the outcome. Assuming that we've gotten past the point where the veil is broken between the Wizarding World and the Normal World, then, sure, Wizards would die to muggles. But the only kind of conflict in which muggle armies would be effective is one where they're being used as a force multiplier by Wizards.
 
D

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The real problem for Wizards is ye old SSBNs and the fact that they can't find them.

I am 100% certain that every wizard community in the world already has spells in place to protect itself against nuclear weapons, because they were just such an obvious threat (which behaves in a highly predictable fashion), so actually that isn't the threat. The threat is that there are 7,000 muggles for every Wizard. At that level of being outnumbered, you have to be 100% perfect, all of the time. Whereas just one of the muggles only has to get lucky, and then you're dead. (note, even this only applies after the veil is completely destroyed and muggles are fully aware and prepared.) So Death Eaters would increasingly resort to preemptive mass killing to try and control the insurgency situation. As long as there are wizards still resisting them, that gives plenty of leeway for those good-guy wizards to form an effective army against Voldemort.
 

Spartan303

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I am 100% certain that every wizard community in the world already has spells in place to protect itself against nuclear weapons, because they were just such an obvious threat (which behaves in a highly predictable fashion), so actually that isn't the threat. The threat is that there are 7,000 muggles for every Wizard. At that level of being outnumbered, you have to be 100% perfect, all of the time. Whereas just one of the muggles only has to get lucky, and then you're dead.


I disagree. There are a lot of things obvious to us that isn't so obvious to them. Nor has such a spell been mentioned. Until I hear word of it, I'm going to logically assume they don't have it until we have confirmation otherwise.

That's kinda how the whole 'Notice me not' spell came about. Its completely fanon and was used in a Fanfiction story, which inspired others to ise the made up spell.
 

Knowledgeispower

Ah I love the smell of missile spam in the morning
I disagree. There are a lot of things obvious to us that isn't so obvious to them. Nor has such a spell been mentioned. Until I hear word of it, I'm going to logically assume they don't have it until we have confirmation otherwise.

That's kinda how the whole 'Notice me not' spell came about. Its completely fanon and was used in a Fanfiction story, which inspired others to ise the made up spell.
And all it takes is one muggleborn wizard who knows where the major population concentrations of wizards are located giving said locations to the militaries of the world and even if nukes aren't used on them an ARC-Light or two will pretty much kill everyone especially if thermobarric ordnance is used.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
It is a point about numbers and powers. In most power based settings there isn't a society of power based people, if there is then the number tends to be very small, under 100. Even settings that have force multipliers like Tony Stark have no where near the numbers that wizards do, even after factoring in non-combatants, old, young, ect. If 100 wizards teleported to 100 different cities at the same time and used fiendfyre and then teleported out, the sheer scope of things makes it impossible to contain. Like the first Avengers Movie, with the invasion of NY, imagine if 100 different cities were invaded at the same time.

If you say wizards can't crush most opponents in any setting, then you need to explain how there is any capability to fight back. Only something at the level of SKYNET or something on a multi-planetary level would have a chance against wizarding society. I won't list all the insane advantages they have again. That is the problem with only looking at a tiny portion of what I wrote.
In marvel there are literally entire species for which any individual could instantly wink every single wizard out of existence in a nanosecond.
 
D

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And all it takes is one muggleborn wizard who knows where the major population concentrations of wizards are located giving said locations to the militaries of the world and even if nukes aren't used on them an ARC-Light or two will pretty much kill everyone especially if thermobarric ordnance is used.


One thing this thread has taught me is that visions of power in the Harry Potter-verse are radically different from reader to reader...
 

Spartan303

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One thing this thread has taught me is that visions of power in the Harry Potter-verse are radically different from reader to reader...

Indeed. One could realistically create plausible stories of 'Wizard Stomp' or 'Muggles are Awesome' tropes and be 100% plausible within the setting. Which is amusing as it is frustrating.
 

Husky_Khan

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Given that insect/arachnid exoskeletons are -for their size- some of the strongest biological things in nature (spider silk is also incredibly strong, but since we're so large we break them easily)?

Most probably. You'll probably have to start going into HMG (so 12.7mm or bigger) with AP rounds to get the little ones, anything larger than that would require autocannons minimum.

Well yeah, if we ignore Square Cube Law and wave it away as a 'Wizard did it' (looks at thread, oh nvm) I'm sure all of those little buggers would be superhuman monstrosities.






Insectoid chitin might be bullet resistant if scaled up. I don't think the spiders in Harry Potter were particularly hard shelled though... being not insects. And they didn't look too big. Sufficient gunfire that can bring down a similarly sized animal should be sufficient on those spiders. Plus all of the scaling is kinda bypassed since the Harry Potter Spiders are kinda... already seen on screen capability wise and nothing seems to show that their abilities are scaled directly due to their size though they are probably ignoring the square cube law a fair bit.
 

Shipmaster Sane

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hahahahahahahahaha god everyone in that thread is so retarded.
 

Midnighter13

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There is a lot of discussion about what wizards are capable of in a fight against the muggle world, but many of those capabilities rely on things which wizards either didn't use, or didn't use much of. Could a wizard infiltrate a military base while invisible, inaudible, immune to toxins and physical force, and carrying an AOE weapon capable of killing every soldier there? Yes. There is no reason why a wizard shouldn't be able to do that. Thing is, it requires the use of a large number of expensive and rare resources (potion ingredients, demiguise hair, etc), difficult or little known spells, and training with both the AOE weapon, and infiltration techniques. Could wizards overcome those challenges? Yes. In the numbers to matter? Probably not.

There is a reason that every auror and death eater doesn't wear enchanted armor with an invisibility cloak over it. Its not that those things are superfluous, its that they are expensive, difficult to make, and don't provide enough of an advantage in combat when fighting other wizards to be worth the expense. Those factors don't change when going up against muggles, even if the utility of the equipment goes up. Just because invisibility cloaks are more useful against muggles than wizards doesn't mean that they will suddenly become cheaper, easier to make, or become generally more available.

We know most Ministry wizards had a horrifically bad DADA education at Hogwarts and most were unable to cast a basic shield charm (the Weasley twins mention this explicitly when talking about selling shield hats). Could all these wizards who are effectively untrained civilians be taught basic combat spells and maybe even useful spells to create enchanted armor, shield hats, etc? Probably. But we know in cannon that the Ministry was not putting their bureaucrats through DADA refresher courses even while dark wizards were terrorizing the country, so presumably such mobilization and training was deemed impractical. So in a hypothetical war situation, the ministries will be relying on the same people they have always relied on, a handful of well trained law enforcement personnel, and whatever auxiliary volunteers they can muster up in a crisis. Bluntly, the wizarding world does not have crack troops. They don't even have soldiers. They have police officers and gang members/terrorists as their only effective fighting forces. They do have a handful of heavy hitters, but you can only deploy your Dumbledore's and Moody's and Voldemort's so many places at any given time, and they can only do so much.

The wizards if fully mobilized, united, and trained for war, with ample preparation and time to build up, would utterly crush any muggle army, country, or even planet. But that is not what we are talking about here. We are looking at a society which is loath to stir itself to war, divided along numerous social and political fault lines, utterly untrained for war, without any form of military institutional knowledge nessesary to get trained, and with limited preparation for a war with muggles. The only thing the wizards have had, is plenty of time to build up, but since they have apparently not done so, such time has been wasted.

Wizards are fully capable of subverting a government, even as is, but actually fighting an open war? They would be so absurdly outnumbered that they would actually need to send lone wizards to take control of entire military bases. And every one of those missions would need to go perfectly. And if even a handful of wizards got wind of the plan, and either warned the muggles or worse, give them aid, it would never work.

Wizards are a lot like aircraft in terms of a modern war. They are highly mobile, incredibly destructive, and can turn the tide of battle in a sortie. But what they can't do is occupy. They can destroy the enemy, but they can't win the war. Unless they are literally fighting a war of extermination, the wizards will not be able to control the countries that they subvert or conquer.

Lets say the wizards take control of the government. Okay, lets say that the top 200-300 government officials are under wizard control. Great. How do you control the hundreds of thousands of bureaucrats, the tens of thousands of corporations, the millions of people who start calling for recall votes, and will notice if elections are rigged or suspended? How the hell do you stop captain random of her majesty's navy from sending in a few marines into London to grab an emergency broadcast system and alert the country when he is ordered to do something illegal? How many independent reporters do you have to mind wipe every day before the news gets out? One way or another, it will, and when it does the country will become ungovernable. Wizards don't have the numbers to have boots on the ground keeping order. Hell, they don't even have enough boots on the ground to have a wizard per police precinct. If they are lucky, they might have enough wizards to have one trained auror per major city, and that's just not going to cut it. It doesn't matter if every single auror has all the bells and whistles that makes them a super wizard. They don't have the numbers to control cities of millions.

Even if the wizards start burning cities, how many cities can they burn a day? Even in a best case scenario, what, maybe 100 cities per day? There are more than 4000 cities around the world with populations larger than 150k alone. That's around the ballpark of the wizard's total global population. Even if wizards were burning each city to the ground, they wouldn't be able to get them all. And if wizards are being sent out to burn cities to the ground, how long until some of them stop coming back? How long before a policeman or a soldier gets a lucky shot in? How long before aurors start thinking 'I didn't sign up to commit genocide'? How long before muggleborn wizards start helping the muggles fight back? The wizarding world may be powerful, but they do not have the infrastructure and scale to fight a war like that without fracturing their own society and starting a civil war, which will give the muggles time to rebuild, reorient, recruit, and counterattack.
 
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Spartan303

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There is a lot of discussion about what wizards are capable of in a fight against the muggle world, but many of those capabilities rely on things which wizards either didn't use, or didn't use much of. Could a wizard infiltrate a military base while invisible, inaudible, immune to toxins and physical force, and carrying an AOE weapon capable of killing every soldier there? Yes. There is no reason why a wizard shouldn't be able to do that. Thing is, it requires the use of a large number of expensive and rare resources (potion ingredients, demiguise hair, etc), difficult or little known spells, and training with both the AOE weapon, and infiltration techniques. Could wizards overcome those challenges? Yes. In the numbers to matter? Probably not.

There is a reason that every auror and death eater doesn't wear enchanted armor with an invisibility cloak over it. Its not that those things are superfluous, its that they are expensive, difficult to make, and don't provide enough of an advantage in combat when fighting other wizards to be worth the expense. Those factors don't change when going up against muggles, even if the utility of the equipment goes up. Just because invisibility cloaks are more useful against muggles than wizards doesn't mean that they will suddenly become cheaper, easier to make, or become generally more available.

We know most Ministry wizards had a horrifically bad DADA education at Hogwarts and most were unable to cast a basic shield charm (the Weasley twins mention this explicitly when talking about selling shield hats). Could all these wizards who are effectively untrained civilians be taught basic combat spells and maybe even useful spells to create enchanted armor, shield hats, etc? Probably. But we know in cannon that the Ministry was not putting their bureaucrats through DADA refresher courses even while dark wizards were terrorizing the country, so presumably such mobilization and training was deemed impractical. So in a hypothetical war situation, the ministries will be relying on the same people they have always relied on, a handful of well trained law enforcement personnel, and whatever auxiliary volunteers they can muster up in a crisis. Bluntly, the wizarding world does not have crack troops. They don't even have soldiers. They have police officers and gang members/terrorists as their only effective fighting forces. They do have a handful of heavy hitters, but you can only deploy your Dumbledore's and Moody's and Voldemort's so many places at any given time, and they can only do so much.

The wizards if fully mobilized, united, and trained for war, with ample preparation and time to build up, would utterly crush any muggle army, country, or even planet. But that is not what we are talking about here. We are looking at a society which is loath to stir itself to war, divided along numerous social and political fault lines, utterly untrained for war, without any form of military institutional knowledge nessesary to get trained, and with limited preparation for a war with muggles. The only thing the wizards have had, is plenty of time to build up, but since they have apparently not done so, such time has been wasted.

Wizards are fully capable of subverting a government, even as is, but actually fighting an open war? They would be so absurdly outnumbered that they would actually need to send lone wizards to take control of entire military bases. And every one of those missions would need to go perfectly. And if even a handful of wizards got wind of the plan, and either warned the muggles or worse, give them aid, it would never work.

Wizards are a lot like aircraft in terms of a modern war. They are highly mobile, incredibly destructive, and can turn the tide of battle in a sortie. But what they can't do is occupy. They can destroy the enemy, but they can't win the war. Unless they are literally fighting a war of extermination, the wizards will not be able to control the countries that they subvert or conquer.

Lets say the wizards take control of the government. Okay, lets say that the top 200-300 government officials are under wizard control. Great. How do you control the hundreds of thousands of bureaucrats, the tends of thousands of corporations, the millions of people who start calling for recall votes, and will notice if elections are rigged or suspended? How the hell do you stop captain random of her majesty's navy from sending in a few marines into London to grab an emergency broadcast system and alert the country when he is ordered to do something illegal? How many independent reporters do you have to mind wipe every day before the news gets out? One way or another, it will, and when it does the country will become ungovernable. Wizards don't have the numbers to have boots on the ground keeping order. Hell, they don't even have enough boots on the ground to have a wizard per police precinct. If they are lucky, they might have enough wizards to have one trained auror per major city, and that's just not going to cut it. It doesn't matter if every single auror has all the bells and whistles that makes them a super wizard. They don't have the numbers to control cities of millions.

Even if the wizards start burning cities, how many cities can they burn a day? Even in a best case scenario, what, maybe 100 cities per day? There are more than 4000 cities around the world with populations larger than 150k alone. That's around the ballpark of the wizard's total global population. Even if wizards were burning each city to the ground, they wouldn't be able to get them all. And if wizards are being sent out to burn cities to the ground, how long until some of them stop coming back? How long before a policeman or a soldier gets a lucky shot in? How long before aurors start thinking 'I didn't sign up to commit genocide'? How long before muggleborn wizards start helping the muggles fight back? The wizarding world may be powerful, but they do not have the infrastructure and scale to fight a war like that without fracturing their own society and starting a civil war, which will give the muggles time to rebuild, reorient, recruit, and counterattack.

You make some very good points.
 

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