United States Minnesota; Man, George Floyd, dies during arrest, cause being a cop kneeling on his neck

[Isem]

All this information out in the open, gonna be dismissed completely or said to be fake, all because it'll go against the narrative of him being a totally innocent black man who was a victim of white supremacy

I think even a serial killer could be considered a "saint" by them

I've no expectations of the people currently trying to turn Floyd into a saint ever looking at this even assuming they would care. I'm mostly sharing it because it's pertinent to the thread and renders the case a lot shakier.

 

[Abhorsen]

I've no expectations of the people currently trying to turn Floyd into a saint ever looking at this even assuming they would care. I'm mostly sharing it because it's pertinent to the thread and renders the case a lot shakier.

It doesn't actually render the case much shakier. If a person does something to kill someone, but that someone has pre-existing conditions that help it along, that's still murder.

 

[Isem]

It doesn't actually render the case much shakier. If a person does something to kill someone, but that someone has pre-existing conditions that help it along, that's still murder.

I dunno about you but that argument gets a lot weaker when that person's actions were within police policy and the "preexisting condition" in question was 4 times the lethal dose of fentanyl alongside other assorted drugs. Particularly when you're concerned that the individual in question is suffering from excited delirium (which considering he was on drugs and acting strange could very well have been possible) which means that apprehending him becomes extremely risky for everyone involved because people suffering from it tend to act unpredictably and ignore pain. They also have a tendency to die no matter what you do. It's not as likely to turn out to be murder as you'd think.

 

[Abhorsen]

I dunno about you but that argument gets a lot weaker when that person's actions were within police policy and the "preexisting condition" in question was 4 times the lethal dose of fentanyl alongside other assorted drugs. Particularly when you're concerned that the individual in question is suffering from excited delirium (which considering he was on drugs and acting strange could very well have been possible) which means that apprehending him becomes extremely risky for everyone involved because people suffering from it tend to act unpredictably and ignore pain. They also have a tendency to die no matter what you do. It's not as likely to turn out to be murder as you'd think.

They weren't actually in police policy though. Leaning on a guys neck for nine minutes is not in police policy. The source you use is wrong on a number of important information. The reason why Floyd was on the ground was that he chose to go to the ground. He wasn't trying to get up at all.

As for your pre-existing condition argument, you don't seem to get how the murder charge works, or the other charges. You just have to cause the death. There is an independent autopsy that shows that the death wasn't a heart problem. Now I will agree that a felony murder (that would be 2nd degree) doesn't seem likely, as I can't see the other felony. But 3rd degree is very possible to prove, with a depraved heart. Usually, I'd count on the jury to give deference to the police, but I don't think that will happen in this case.

 

[Bacle]

That cop kneeled on George Floyd's neck for over 8 minutes, long after he'd gone limp, and it is standard procedure to put you knee on the shoulder blades, not neck in that situation.

George Floyd was no saint, this is true.

But continuing to try to deflect blame from the reckless cop that killed him only makes those doing it look worse.

This isn't Ferguson or Trayvon Martin, this is far more clear cut and nothing George Floyd did or had in his system justifies or excuses what that cop did and what those 3 other cops allowed to happen.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

This isn't Ferguson or Trayvon Martin, this is far more clear cut and nothing George Floyd did or had in his system justifies or excuses what that cop did and what those 3 other cops allowed to happen.

Apparently "seniority" was why they didn't stop him as I recall, in-spite of not liking it

 

[Zachowon]

This shit smells like CIA/Cartel activity, to me.

Updated digs on El Nuevo Rodeo drug trafficking/money laundering operation + possible dead end? - (We) Are The News

NOTABLE - UPDATED pb pb pb pb Compiled, Updated, Amended - DIG MOAR George Floyd was a hit job to protect a DRUG TRAFFICKING/MONEY LAUNDERING OPERATION at El Nuevo Rodeo. -Owned by Omar Investments (Muna Sabri) -Relative Basim Sabri busted by FBI on 3 bribery counts in 2001. -9/11/01 - Intel...

wearethene.ws

I'm less than 15 miles, as the crow flies, from where this bullshit is happening. Very comfy with my air conditioner and my popcorn and shit. I give zero fucks.



The CIA "manages" the cartels, especially the Sinaloa cartel. The cartels controlled the nightclub where Derek Chauvin and George Floyd worked, and knew each other. It was a money-laundering front. Derek Chauvin was probably ordered to hit George Floyd and to make it very public and obvious. This whole thing is fucking psychological warfare, and dumbasses are falling for it.



Funny thing is, no one gives a shit about the slave markets in Libya or the genocide of Uyghurs, but everyone flips out about the death of one guy with a rap sheet a mile long? Crazy. This shit is crazy.

What You Need to Know About the Libyan Slave Trade

A video of men appearing to be sold at auction in Libya has shocked the world

time.com

China is reportedly sending men to sleep in the same beds as Uighur Muslim women while their husbands are in prison camps

China is waging a hardline campaign against the Uighur ethnic minority that has seen more than 1 million people detained in prison camps.

www.businessinsider.com

The CIA definitely has cartel connections.

CONFIRMED: The DEA Struck A Deal With Mexico's Most Notorious Drug Cartel

Court documents detail arrangement between the U.S. government and the Sinaloa cartel.

www.businessinsider.com

Mexican official: CIA ‘manages’ drug trade

Spokesman for Chihuahua state says US agencies don’t want to end drug trade, a claim denied by other Mexican officials.

www.aljazeera.com

Was Operation Fast And Furious Really Part Of A Secret Deal Between The DEA And Mexico's Sinaloa Drug Cartel?

An investigation by a major Mexican newspaper, El Universal, has concluded that the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency entered into agreements—dating back to 2000 and continuing through 2012—with Mexico’s largest drug trafficking gang, the Sinaloa Cartel. According to Jesus Vicente Zambada-Niebla, a...

www.forbes.com

U.S. Government Helped Rise of Mexican Drug Cartel: Report | TIME.com

Mexican newspaper reveals secret arrangement between DEA and Sinaloa cartel

world.time.com

El Chapo Guzman and the Alleged CIA, DEA Betrayal, the Sinaloa Cartel Dealings

Joaquin ‘El Chapo’ Guzman has for a long time been one of the most elusive drug lords in Mexico. Apparently, the United States let his cartel bring tons of drugs into the United States each year in exchange for information on rival Mexican organizations.

www.pvangels.com

And that nightclub where Derek Chauvin and George Floyd worked has cartel connections.

It's just a couple degrees of separation between the original actors in this crisis and the CIA.

It isnt and has never been. CIA are not the kind to cause operations on US Soil.

That cop kneeled on George Floyd's neck for over 8 minutes, long after he'd gone limp, and it is standard procedure to put you knee on the shoulder blades, not neck in that situation.

George Floyd was no saint, this is true.

But continuing to try to deflect blame from the reckless cop that killed him only makes those doing it look worse.

This isn't Ferguson or Trayvon Martin, this is far more clear cut and nothing George Floyd did or had in his system justifies or excuses what that cop did and what those 3 other cops allowed to happen.

Now everyone turns to the justified Brooks case from GA and having a DA going for Felony Murder for doing his job!!!!!

Floyd is old news...

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Now everyone turns to the justified Brooks case from GA and having a DA going for Felony Murder for doing his job!!!!!

Floyd is old news...

Brooks will be “old news” too soon, they’ll be looking for anybody they can use to attack not just the police, but also civvies who are defending places and statues

 

[Isem]

They weren't actually in police policy though. Leaning on a guys neck for nine minutes is not in police policy. The source you use is wrong on a number of important information. The reason why Floyd was on the ground was that he chose to go to the ground. He wasn't trying to get up at all.

As mentioned before, people experiencing EXD are highly agitated, violent, and show signs of unexpected strength so it is not surprising that most require physical restraint. The prone maximal restraint position (PMRP, also known as “hobble” or “hogtie”), where the person’s ankles and wrists are bound together behind their back, has been used extensively by field personnel. In far fewer cases, persons have been tied to a hospital gurney or manually held prone with knee pressure on the back or neck.

Bolding mine. If they thought he had excited delirium (and they're on film saying they thought he did) holding them down until EMS arrives with ketamine, with a knee or otherwise is something that has been done before. That's a government white paper discussing the subject. The article literally goes over how it is in fact common in cases like that. You're even given cases of it being used by officers where they also needed numbers in order to restrain the individual. Hell in the case of Donald Lewis they even held the stance for less time. Didn't matter. He died regardless because excited delirium kills you no matter how the cops try to restrain you. Hell as an added bonus the Lewis case even had the same medical examiner hired by Floyd's family show up, claim the police acted improperly only for the suit to get thrown out by the court.

In fact I'll even put in the video from that case. You might see some similarities:

Spoiler: Man dies.

As for your pre-existing condition argument, you don't seem to get how the murder charge works, or the other charges. You just have to cause the death. There is an independent autopsy that shows that the death wasn't a heart problem. Now I will agree that a felony murder (that would be 2nd degree) doesn't seem likely, as I can't see the other felony. But 3rd degree is very possible to prove, with a depraved heart. Usually, I'd count on the jury to give deference to the police, but I don't think that will happen in this case.

And you don't seem to get how excited delirium brought about by drug overdose works and why the policy for it amounts to a defeated "no matter what we do there's a good chance they will die". Saying "they killed him by doing the wrong thing" doesn't work when no matter what they did he was extremely likely to die.

But continuing to try to deflect blame from the reckless cop that killed him only makes those doing it look worse.

This isn't Ferguson or Trayvon Martin, this is far more clear cut and nothing George Floyd did or had in his system justifies or excuses what that cop did and what those 3 other cops allowed to happen.

If I gave a shit about 'looking worse" in peoples' eyes I wouldn't be on this forum and would instead be cheering on the morons burning their own houses and stores down. And unfortunately for your claim, that doesn't actually hold true. If he was suffering from a condition who's effects can basically be summarized as "no matter how well or badly we try to restrain them there's good odds they're going to die anyway and while that's happening they will ignore pain while being extremely strong. (nearly able to push away 6 people and manage to injure one of them levels of strong)", and there's good odds that he was considering all the shit in his system, then trying to hold them at fault just got a lot harder because no matter what they did or didn't do, Floyd's chances of dying were extremely high because it doesn't matter how they restrain him, he will push against said restraints until cardiac arrest occurs.

 

[Abhorsen]

And you don't seem to get how excited delirium brought about by drug overdose works and why the policy for it amounts to a defeated "no matter what we do there's a good chance they will die". Saying "they killed him by doing the wrong thing" doesn't work when no matter what they did he was extremely likely to die.

You just glide over the autopsy that shows that the neck is what killed him. And it doesn't matter if he was extremely likely to die. If they caused the death, that's murder.

 

[GoldRanger]

That cop kneeled on George Floyd's neck for over 8 minutes, long after he'd gone limp, and it is standard procedure to put you knee on the shoulder blades, not neck in that situation.

George Floyd was no saint, this is true.

But continuing to try to deflect blame from the reckless cop that killed him only makes those doing it look worse.

This isn't Ferguson or Trayvon Martin, this is far more clear cut and nothing George Floyd did or had in his system justifies or excuses what that cop did and what those 3 other cops allowed to happen.

I agree. BUT! This also does not justify turning Floyd into a saint.

He's a criminal unjustly killed by an at best incompetent and at worst malicious police officer. It's also entirely possible that his officer's behavior is part of a systemic problem of ingrained police callousness (although I wouldn't take BLM's word for it, I'd want independent apolitical inquiries into this matter).

After all is said and done, he's still a criminal, not a saint. If the media shows a picture of him smiling with his children (whom he abandoned and hadn't seen for years by the time of his death) then it's clearly a detestable propaganda effort, not anything close to a true to life portrayal of his character. If thousands of people show up to his funeral, they're still worshiping a criminal. If his (ex) wife gives an interview on TV, she still shouldn't be proud of her association with him. And there's still a traumatized for life woman out there somewhere, who sees the robber who put a gun to her pregnant belly being turned into a national hero.

I think the question of Floyd's character and the police behavior are two separate questions that should be reviewed completely independently from each other.

 

[Bacle]

I agree. BUT! This also does not justify turning Floyd into a saint.

He's a criminal unjustly killed by an at best incompetent and at worst malicious police officer. It's also entirely possible that his officer's behavior is part of a systemic problem of ingrained police callousness (although I wouldn't take BLM's word for it, I'd want independent apolitical inquiries into this matter).

After all is said and done, he's still a criminal, not a saint. If the media shows a picture of him smiling with his children (whom he abandoned and hadn't seen for years by the time of his death) then it's clearly a detestable propaganda effort, not anything close to a true to life portrayal of his character. If thousands of people show up to his funeral, they're still worshiping a criminal. If his (ex) wife gives an interview on TV, she still shouldn't be proud of her association with him. And there's still a traumatized for life woman out there somewhere, who sees the robber who put a gun to her pregnant belly being turned into a national hero.

I think the question of Floyd's character and the police behavior are two separate questions that should be reviewed completely independently from each other.

They should be.

Yet the trend in here lately has been to keep harping on the drugs and his criminal history, while ignoring the knee to the neck for 8+ minutes.

George Floyd was a criminal, this is a fact. He was not a saint, was a hardcore drug user, and should have been behind bars.

But none of that excuses what that cop did, and the amount of attempts to deflect the blame from the cops who caused his death is rather sickening.

 

[Isem]

You just glide over the autopsy that shows that the neck is what killed him. And it doesn't matter if he was extremely likely to die. If they caused the death, that's murder.

I didn't glide over it. I even pointed out that individuals suffering from EDS will frequently push against restraints until they suffer cardiac arrest, which is what killed Floyd. As far as the cops knew he was doing what people suffering from it tend to do while they did what they were meant to be doing to restrain him.

I'm assuming here that you're referring to the official autopsy rather then the one by Michael Baden. That one is extremely unlikely to hold much weight in court considering the man has a history in these kinds of cases (more recently for example he tried to claim that Michael Brown was surrendering when he died.)

 

[Abhorsen]

I didn't glide over it. I even pointed out that individuals suffering from EDS will frequently push against restraints until they suffer cardiac arrest, which is what killed Floyd. As far as the cops knew he was doing what people suffering from it tend to do while they did what they were meant to be doing to restrain him.

If true, that means that the restraint caused Floyd's death, which means that the cop murdered him, if they can show a depraved heart (which isn't hard), or another felony, which would jack it up to 2nd degree.

 

[Isem]

If true, that means that the restraint caused Floyd's death, which means that the cop murdered him, if they can show a depraved heart (which isn't hard), or another felony, which would jack it up to 2nd degree.

Roy Scott was 65 years old. Police were called to his residence. After coming outside with a pipe in his hand and pulling a knife out of his pocket, police decided to pat him down. The police handcuffed him and began patting him down when he began experiencing extreme emotional distress. The police tried to deescalate verbally, which did not work. They then tried keeping the suspect on his back, which did not work. They momentarily placed him in the prone position, and even engaged in neck restraint for less than a minute. The police are calm the entire time — one officer tells the other officer to “just keep holding him, he’s going to keep rolling around, he’s going to hurt himself”. The police eventually place him on his side in the recovery position, which is a candidate for the safest restraint position in ExDS encounters. They hold his head with their palms so that he doesn’t bang it on the ground.

The Roy Scott video — linked above — may just be the best case recorded of how police should deal with ExDS. Everything they did was correct. They went above and beyond in deescalating the situation. The officers had compassion for Roy Scott.

But Roy Scott still died. How?

As the Journal of Emergency Medical Services notes,

“The usual response by subjects to restraints is to either accept that fighting is futile or continue to be verbally abusive. The patient with excited delirium, however, continues to fight the restraints until cardiac arrest occurs.”

This is what happened to Roy Scott. It did not matter how the officers restrained him, because he would fight against the restraints past the point of exhaustion and into cardiac arrest.

Bolding my own.

It does not matter how you restrain someone suffering from EDS or how gently you do so. They will push until they suffer cardiac arrest. No matter what you choose to do. And not restraining someone suffering from it risks both the general public and the individual in question because when someone is in that state of mind, and feels no pain, they're not going to be remotely rational and will more then happily do things that will maim or kill themselves or someone else.

Unfortunately, a perfect outcome where everyone goes home alive and well is very rare under such circumstances. To quote the white paper which the article did (Page 49):

Given the irrational and potentially violent, dangerous, and lethal behavior of an ExDS subject, any LEO interaction with a person in this situation risks significant injury or death to either the LEO or the ExDS subject who has a potentially lethal medical syndrome. This already challenging situation has the potential for intense public scrutiny coupled with the expectation of a perfect outcome. Anything less creates a situation of potential public outrage. Unfortunately, this dangerous medical situation makes perfect outcomes difficult in many circumstances.

 

[Abhorsen]

It does not matter how you restrain someone suffering from EDS or how gently you do so. They will push until they suffer cardiac arrest. No matter what you choose to do

Thus the restraint is causing the death. Which, when we add another felony (a stretch, IMO) or a depraved heart (pretty clear, IMO), makes it murder of second or third degree, respectively. None of the rest of your post even argues with this.

Now if it had been a normal, non-evil cop restricting him, and in response to Floyd struggling to breathe, the cop behaved with basic humanity and got off his neck, or showed any level of care, this wouldn't be a murder case, as the other parts wouldn't have been met. If the cop had gotten off Floyd's neck once he knew that there was no pulse, then maybe he could have made a case about the depraved heart thing, and lowered it to manslaughter. But Floyd's death DID show a depraved heart, and that's what makes it murder.

 

[Bacle]

Thus the restraint is causing the death. Which, when we add another felony (a stretch, IMO) or a depraved heart (pretty clear, IMO), makes it murder of second or third degree, respectively. None of the rest of your post even argues with this.

Now if it had been a normal, non-evil cop restricting him, and in response to Floyd struggling to breathe, the cop behaved with basic humanity and got off his neck, or showed any level of care, this wouldn't be a murder case, as the other parts wouldn't have been met. If the cop had gotten off Floyd's neck once he knew that there was no pulse, then maybe he could have made a case about the depraved heart thing, and lowered it to manslaughter. But Floyd DID show a depraved heart, and that's what makes it murder.

Um, Floyd didn't murder himself; might want to look at your last sentence there.

 

[Sailor.X]

Apparently "seniority" was why they didn't stop him as I recall, in-spite of not liking it

Which is bullshit on them. Back when I was in the Navy. If I would have seen a Gunny Sergeant Killing someone that just surrendered and was in our custody. You damn well know we would have intervened to stop him. One it would violate a shit ton of rules and two when news of what happened gets out. They would throw all of us under the bus. Because we could have done something but did not. To cover their own ass alone they should have stepped in. But they should have done it first because it was wrong. Just following orders is not an excuse.

 

[LordsFire]

Isem, even if you are exactly right about a need to continue to use extreme restraint against Floyd, there was a point where they couldn't find a pulse, and the officer still didn't get off his neck.

That's excessive, and has legal consequences when someone dies.

 

[Zachowon]

Thus the restraint is causing the death. Which, when we add another felony (a stretch, IMO) or a depraved heart (pretty clear, IMO), makes it murder of second or third degree, respectively. None of the rest of your post even argues with this.

Now if it had been a normal, non-evil cop restricting him, and in response to Floyd struggling to breathe, the cop behaved with basic humanity and got off his neck, or showed any level of care, this wouldn't be a murder case, as the other parts wouldn't have been met. If the cop had gotten off Floyd's neck once he knew that there was no pulse, then maybe he could have made a case about the depraved heart thing, and lowered it to manslaughter. But Floyd's death DID show a depraved heart, and that's what makes it murder.

They could have put him in the back of thier car in hand cuffs and he still would have died is what Isem is saying.

Which is bullshit on them. Back when I was in the Navy. If I would have seen a Gunny Sergeant Killing someone that just surrendered and was in our custody. You damn well know we would have intervened to stop him. One it would violate a shit ton of rules and two when news of what happened gets out. They would throw all of us under the bus. Because we could have done something but did not. To cover their own ass alone they should have stepped in. But they should have done it first because it was wrong. Just following orders is not an excuse.

Blue is blind to the Blue is sadly true though they are trying to push it out, though the cops who have been there so long still push it.