• The 'Comrade' title is now available in a fetching communist red for purchase by all of you capitalists who survived the Sietch gulag during the people's revolution. And in the spirit of all communists everywhere, it was broken until the capitalist pig dogs fixed it. ;)

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Aldarion

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When something 'evolves' into something else, it is no longer what it was. Capitalism cannot be faulted for un-capitalistic things, that's like blaming a drought for drownings. Christians cannot be faulted for what churchian pretenders do, either. The 'no true scotsman' fallacy requires moving goalposts so the 'true scotsman' can never be held accountable, but Christianity is pinned down to scripture, and capitalism is almost as well defined. Hold Christians to the bible, and capitalists to private ownership and free trade, and a whole lot starts to make sense -- for many of those who call themselves either, are neither.

You complain about 'the companies', but they only exist as they are as a direct function of government intervention. You say the companies 'make' government act in their interests, but this is false -- they influence humans to make irresponsible choices in elections, and influence human politicians to make irresponsible choices in governance. All of this come back to the morality of the people, or the lack thereof. Moral people would balk at well-advertised scum, and moral leaders would balk at immoral incentives to abuse their station.

If we were angels, 0% of what you describe would happen. We quite obviously are not, but blaming 'the companies', abstract legal constructs, for what we the people do, is lazy bullshit. It allows you to slide away from the question of personal morality and tilt at an abstract windmill. "The companies" are the safest target on the entire planet to complain about fruitlessly. The real problem is the people: any system of ownership and trade, from capitalist to communist, will fail when operated by selfish fools.

Humanity was wretched in pre-Christian times, and that wretchedness did not go away in a single generation. It took more than a thousand years of both Christian morals and eugenic population change to get us to where we were in 1900. It should not escape your notice that when we started sliding backwards was precisely the time much of the West decided they knew better than Lord, embraced the Synagogue of Satan, and worshiped money and material 'progress'.
It can be blamed when it is capitalism causing these un-capitalistic things. That is like saying that Communism cannot be blamed for genocides, because Communism as an ideology does not call for them. Sure, its theory did not call for genocides - but its practice nevertheless resulted in them.

It is same for capitalism: if capitalism is not regulated in some way - be it by border controls or something else - it invariably destroys itself. Unless it is a sort of business that is by its very nature conductive to small enterprenaurship, rule is that if you don't grow, you disappear. Goal is to establish a monopoly, but establishment of monopoly means death of capitalism, especially since easiest way of establishing a monopoly is to coopt governmental help - which then leads to socialism.

As for morality of the people, you have to understand that humans are not moral by their nature. And especially people who seek power cannot be moral. Democracy causes degeneracy in more than one way. First, because it brings psychopaths to positions of power. To gain power in democracy, you first have to want it, and then you have to lie, cheat and steal your way to it. So if you are saying that return of morality can somehow solve problems in politics, you are making an account without a bartender. It can never happen, at least not in a democratic society. Traditional monarchy can avoid it, some of the time, but that requires traditional society - which means no capitalism, or at least none of the modern capitalism, because capitalism - with its freedom of movement, freedom of choice, and compulsion towards equality so same things can be sold to everybody - destroys everything traditional.

You admit that we are not angels, but then you do not follow to what that means for your theories. Fact is, concentration of power is bad, whether it is in hands of the state or in hands of a large corporation. People are always going to do bad things, but pretending that organization of society and tools available do not matter is simply wrong. Large corporations want large government by their very nature, because large government can easily be bought and made to tailor laws which fit their needs. Large corporations and large government alike hate competition - they are already dominant, and have no interest in allowing any competitors that might endanger that dominance. Morality cannot change this, because this system destroys morality as a function of its existence.

Again: humans are selfish fools by nature. Introducing moral code can help, but if the society itself is set up in a way that is rotten, moral code will not last. It will become rotten itself, as has indeed happened with Christianity in the post-1900 era.
 

PsihoKekec

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Another problem is that we thrive the most when in balance, but we never seek balance - we seek extremes. Thus we go from extreme to extreme, with accidental bliss on the midway point.
 

The Whispering Monk

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And especially people who seek power cannot be moral. Democracy causes degeneracy in more than one way. First, because it brings psychopaths to positions of power. To gain power in democracy, you first have to want it, and then you have to lie, cheat and steal your way to it.
I know we're all jaded to one degree or another, but you are wrong in stating that all who seek power are immoral degenerates. You're also wrong that to gain power you must lie, cheat & steal. That's just the path of least resistance...
because capitalism - with its freedom of movement, freedom of choice, and compulsion towards equality so same things can be sold to everybody - destroys everything traditional.
This statement assumes a LOT. Capitalism doesn't necessily destroy anything. Organizations that grow w/in it, and seek non-free ways to maintain power and wealth do these things.
Fact is, concentration of power is bad, whether it is in hands of the state or in hands of a large corporation.
Totally agree with you here.
Morality cannot change this, because this system destroys morality as a function of its existence.
Again, Capitalism doesn't destroy morality. It doesn't necessarilly embrace it either.
 

Abhishekm

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That's an ad meant to fail and then be used as evidence for the need to outsource the job to a non-American working on an HB1 Visa who will get paid more than $15.29/hr, but still a lot less than an American with a Masters Degree would charge.
H1B and to be fair the average newbie with a masters is kinda shit. Like really shit. Like they just did 2 more years of college repeating the same stuff right out of highschool shit.

Not our fault the US college system sends out crap. And to be honest dude 15 bucks an hour is pretty good for starter jobs for a masters student with no experience.

US and foreign students both. Goes back to a 'Living Wage' puttimg you in the top 5%.


Again, Capitalism doesn't destroy morality. It doesn't necessarilly embrace it either.
2021 Dale Gribble: 'Capitalism doesn't make degenerates the Government does!'
 
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bintananth

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$15/hr might put you in the top 5% globally but where you live matters and the US is not a cheap place to live.

About 70% of the world would not be able to buy as much gasoline as I need to each month even if that's the only thing they buy. Seeing a scruffy bum say "$50 on pump twelve" is not an uncommon experience in the US.
 

Abhishekm

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$15/hr might put you in the top 5% globally but where you live matters and the US is not a cheap place to live.
With its welfare programs and standards of safety it is also far from the costliest. Seriously its still funny.

Like 'Oooh, I went to 6 years of collage without working for a day or savings and now they won't pay me more a year than it would take to buy 2 new cars out of the gate.'. You know fresh IT masters graduates in India make 10 grand a year doing better work than the average US scrub? The average price of a car doesn't change much between countries you understand? Neither does the price of electronics or most manufactured goods. Or Gasoline outside government screwups.

But ooh! A new york apartment costs so much!!! Nearly 20% of the countries average wage. That percentage doesn't change much either for reference. What does is the buying power for finished goods. And by that along with pretty much every standard metric its all 'First world problems' memes come to life. Which is ironic given the real problems the First World ignores.

God forbid 24 year old Toby with a y and Megan without a h not be able to buy iPhone 22s on their McDonald salaries.
 
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Zachowon

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With its welfare programs and standards of safety it is also far from the costliest. Seriously its still funny.

Like 'Oooh, I went to 6 years of collage without working for a day or savings and now they won't pay me more a year than it would take to buy 2 new cars out of the gate.'. You know fresh IT masters graduates in India make 10 grand a year doing better work than the average US scrub? The average price of a car doesn't change much between countries you understand? Neither does the price of electronics or most manufactured goods. Or Gasoline outside government screwups.

But ooh! A new york apartment costs so much!!! Nearly 20% of the countries average wage. That percentage doesn't change much either for reference. What does is the buying power for finished goods. And by that along with pretty much every standard metric its all 'First world problems' memes come to life. Which is ironic given the real problems the First World ignores.

God forbid 24 year old Toby with a y and Megan without a h not be able to buy iPhone 22s on their McDonald salaries.
I mean, 15 bucks an hour can get you a decent apartment in some places, and enough to work your way to a better situation.
That is the issue, since some people think "I require plenty of money with this 6 year degree where I only went to school. I require six figures form the get go, and to live in a big city!" And nit "I am gonna move to a place where I can make a nice life for myself, and look for jobs I could use to get experience and the like."
Or just join the fucking military
 

Zachowon

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Where do people keep getting this idea that minimum wage was ever meant to be a "living wage"?
By a bunch if full frown adults who think they deserve to have a high paying job with no experience and a degree in something useless.
It just seems that a lot of people think a job should be allowed to let people live off that job.
A job at McDonald's as a burger flipper is not meant to be a job to live off if. Either move up, or work to get a better job while gaining experience on tje side to get a better job in said field
 

Aldarion

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I know we're all jaded to one degree or another, but you are wrong in stating that all who seek power are immoral degenerates. You're also wrong that to gain power you must lie, cheat & steal. That's just the path of least resistance...
Getting to a position in a modern representative democracy is all about marketing - which means lies. It is thus hardly surprising that politicians (and stockbrokers) tend to rank very high in both psychopathy and narcissism.

Psychopathic traits specifically are:
  • superficial charm
  • callousness
  • dishonesty
  • manipulativeness
  • egocentricity
  • a lack of concern for social mores
  • guiltlessness
  • poor impulse control
  • irresponsibility
  • antisocial behavior
So what would above mean for a modern-day, elected politician?
  • superficial charm - easily an asset, and an easily recognized trait in elected officials. To get elected, you don't need to fool people for long - just for a couple of months. And humans are very, very bad at actually recognizing when a person is lying. They also very, very easily fall for charm. So unless you know someone intimately, you will get fooled by a superficial charm.
  • callousness - again, an asset. When you are fighting for a position, caring about people merely means that you have a greater number of easily-exploited pressure points.
  • dishonesty - another asset, and another easily recognized trait in elected officials. Since officials are elected every few years, and truth often stays hidden for years, this means that a politician is unlikely to face the consequences of their lies. And they need to lie to get elected.
  • manipulativeness - see above. Again, politician needs to be able to manipulate people to get elected, and also to get some things done.
  • egocentricity - frankly, it is unlikely anyone who is not egocentric would want to become a politician.
  • a lack of concern for social mores - again, something that is easily noticeable in politicians, and something that makes them far more effective. If you don't care about social mores, it is much easier to manipulate people and get elected.
  • guiltlessness - how often do you see politicians admitting mistakes? A politician admitting a mistake has basically committed a political suicide.
  • poor impulse control - again, somethong I notice often among politicians.
  • irresponsibility - same. It is basically a political suicide to admit any kind of responsibility.
  • antisocial behavior - same.
This statement assumes a LOT. Capitalism doesn't necessily destroy anything. Organizations that grow w/in it, and seek non-free ways to maintain power and wealth do these things.
And they grow in such ways because of capitalism. Capitalism, unregulated capitalism, is an endless competition - you grow or you die. There is no place for morality or emotion there.

Again, Capitalism doesn't destroy morality. It doesn't necessarilly embrace it either.
See above.
 

Terthna

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Where do people keep getting this idea that minimum wage was ever meant to be a "living wage"?
Because if people don't make enough money to live, and aren't supplemented by some other source of revenue (like relatives, charities, or welfare), they will die; and that's kinda what minimum wage was instituted to avoid.
 

Rocinante

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Because if people don't make enough money to live, and aren't supplemented by some other source of revenue (like relatives, charities, or welfare), they will die; and that's kinda what minimum wage was instituted to avoid.
Well the people arguing for it being a "living wage" are making srguments like "a min wage earner can't afford a two bedroom apartment"

Well tough shit. Get a studio or one bed room, or a roommate.
 

Terthna

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Well the people arguing for it being a "living wage" are making srguments like "a min wage earner can't afford a two bedroom apartment"

Well tough shit. Get a studio or one bed room, or a roommate.
Yeah, no; a living wage, in my opinion at least, is just enough to provide for one's basic needs without having to also rely on handouts. Things like food, shelter, clothing; plus a little extra to save for emergencies, in case you break a leg or something.
 

Bassoe

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