Meme Thread for Both Posting and Discussing Memes

[LordsFire]

Now the specific case going to the supreme court, IIRC, took place after the school activity, so honestly it's really an edge case I don't care about. But teachers leading kids in prayer will make the public schools a whole lot worse than they already are.

Now this is a very interesting premise. Can you support that?

Because one of the funny thing is, back before prayer was taken out of schools, IIRC teachers listed the number 1 and 2 problems in school as 'chewing gum and talking in class.'

Schools don't really look like that much now, do they?

 

[The Whispering Monk]

...teachers leading kids in prayer will make the public schools a whole lot worse than they already are.

How does prayer innately make things worse?

 

[Bacle]

How does prayer innately make things worse?

In public school situations, it's violating the Establishment Clause.

A clause which is there to keep religion from interfering with public and governmental functions, and keep the gov from favoring any sect/denomination over others.

Because the second you allow prayer by teachers in public schools, you now opened the door to sectarian violence when people pray 'the wrong way' or 'to the wrong religion'.

The Founders saw what interdenominational fights had done to politics in Europe, and wanted none of that here.

 

[LordsFire]

In public school situations, it's violating the Establishment Clause.

A clause which is there to keep religion from interfering with public and governmental functions, and keep the gov from favoring any sect/denomination over others.

Because the second you allow prayer by teachers in public schools, you now opened the door to sectarian violence when people pray 'the wrong way' or 'to the wrong religion'.

The Founders saw what interdenominational fights had done to politics in Europe, and wanted none of that here.

No, people praying on the job does not violate the constitution. What does, is state-enforced functional atheism, which is something hardline atheists have deliberately engineered and been pushing for generations now.

When you are forced to act as though you do not believe in God while on the job, that is restricting the free exercise of religion.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Because the second you allow prayer by teachers in public schools, you now opened the door to sectarian violence when people pray 'the wrong way' or 'to the wrong religion'.

That's not true either. Prayer does not = sectarian violence.

 

[Zachowon]

I think forcing people to pray is wrong but we should separate church from state

 

[Abhorsen]

Now this is a very interesting premise. Can you support that?

Because one of the funny thing is, back before prayer was taken out of schools, IIRC teachers listed the number 1 and 2 problems in school as 'chewing gum and talking in class.'

Schools don't really look like that much now, do they?

How does prayer innately make things worse?

By worse, I mean that they will become even more of a tool for indoctrination than they already are. Do you want your public school teacher leading the kids in muslim prayer every day? Or a different branch of christianity that wildly disagrees with yours? What about a satanist?

They will now not only try to turn your son into a daughter or visa versa, but also change what religion they follow.

I have the same objection to it that I do with a teacher deciding to rant their political opinions while on the job and kids are listening.

No, people praying on the job does not violate the constitution. What does, is state-enforced functional atheism, which is something hardline atheists have deliberately engineered and been pushing for generations now.

When you are forced to act as though you do not believe in God while on the job, that is restricting the free exercise of religion.

Oh, I totally support people being able to pray on the job. But when they are praying in front of impressionable kids, which could easily be an attempt to convert them away from what their parents believe in, that I've got an issue with. I also have an issue with them saying that "god is dead" or trying to convert them to atheism.

Look, public school is an abomination designed for indoctrination. But as long as it exists, limit the possibility for indoctrination as much as possible. If someone wants to pray not in front of kids at school, I got no issue.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Establishment clause was to keep government from forcing a particular religion on people.

It does NOT force people from practicing their religion.

 

[LordsFire]

By worse, I mean that they will become even more of a tool for indoctrination than they already are. Do you want your public school teacher leading the kids in muslim prayer every day? Or a different branch of christianity that wildly disagrees with yours? What about a satanist?

They are already doing this. Government schools are chock full of atheist and post-modernist propaganda. You're arguing to close the barn door after the horses have already left.

 

[Abhorsen]

Establishment clause was to keep government from forcing a particular religion on people.

It does NOT force people from practicing their religion.

This is something I entirely agree with. But a teacher, while at work, is the government. And by leading a public prayer, they are putting a lot of pressure on a young kid to conform with the teacher's religion. I'd say that's the government putting a lot of pressure on a young kid to convert.

They are already doing this. Government schools are chock full of atheist and post-modernist propaganda. You're arguing to close the barn door after the horses have already left.

Some of the horses have left. Secure the ones we can, round up the others and put them back. But definitely don't destroy the door.

 

[LordsFire]

Some of the horses have left. Secure the ones we can, round up the others and put them back. But definitely don't destroy the door.

And continuing to teach state atheism is going to do that how?

 

[Bacle]

No, people praying on the job does not violate the constitution. What does, is state-enforced functional atheism, which is something hardline atheists have deliberately engineered and been pushing for generations now.

When you are forced to act as though you do not believe in God while on the job, that is restricting the free exercise of religion.

That's not true either. Prayer does not = sectarian violence.

Establishment clause was to keep government from forcing a particular religion on people.

It does NOT force people from practicing their religion.

And continuing to teach state atheism is going to do that how?

When your job is as a public official dealing with impressionable youth of many backgrounds/faiths, which public school teachers are and do, personal beliefs do not matter and should be left out of the classroom.

Because the Establishment Clause is there to keep the gov from favoring any religion/sect/denomination over any other, and keeping teachers from praying in front of students is the best way to keep sectarian beliefs and religious strife out of the the classroom and out of gov as a whole.

You should not push prayer from any faith in front of students in a public school, just as the Left should not push drag shows.

 

[LordsFire]

When your job is as a public official dealing with impressionable youth of many backgrounds/faiths, which public school teachers are and do, personal beliefs do not matter and should be left out of the classroom.

Because the Establishment Clause is there to keep the gov from favoring any religion/sect/denomination over any other, and keeping teachers from praying in front of students is the best way to keep sectarian beliefs and religious strife out of the the classroom and out of gov as a whole.

You should not push prayer from any faith in front of students in a public school, just as the Left should not push drag shows.

Functional atheism is no 'neutral' stance on this. What is being taught is that only atheism is intellectually credible, and this is not by accident, this is deliberate.

It also is not evenly enforced. Going back at least to the 90's, special provisions have been made for Muslims to pray in schools, while Christians have been cracked down on, sometimes even just for having a Bible with them.

This is not a matter of neutrality, this is a matter of no longer banning everything except religion acceptable to leftists, IE atheism, agnosticism, and Islam.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

ignoring religion and questions about it is the best way foster strife between religions. Children need to be taught to be fearless in asking questions. They also need to understand that some questions are not easily answered and many religious ones are.

Preventing a person from prayer is wrong.

A person praying is NOT pushing said religion on another no matter where it takes place.

If an instructor is interrupting class to "grand stand" their prayer...that's wrong. I'll be with you in opposing that, unless it's a religious school of course.

 

[Bacle]

Functional atheism is no 'neutral' stance on this. What is being taught is that only atheism is intellectually credible, and this is not by accident, this is deliberate.

It also is not evenly enforced. Going back at least to the 90's, special provisions have been made for Muslims to pray in schools, while Christians have been cracked down on, sometimes even just for having a Bible with them.

This is not a matter of neutrality, this is a matter of no longer banning everything except religion acceptable to leftists, IE atheism, agnosticism, and Islam.

Show me public schools which allowed Muslim teahcers to pray in front of their classes, because I have not seen anything like your claim about Muslims.

And the Establishment Clause has been in the US Constitution from the beginning, because the Founders didn't want Protestants, Catholics, Muslims, or any other religion to be seen as favored by the US government, to keep religious strife and political issues stemming from religion from tainting the US gov.

You can call that 'state atheism' if you wish, but the fact is the Founders of the US wanted a secular nation and a secular gov for good reason.

ignoring religion and questions about it is the best way foster strife between religions. Children need to be taught to be fearless in asking questions. They also need to understand that some questions are not easily answered and many religious ones are.

Preventing a person from prayer is wrong.

A person praying is NOT pushing said religion on another no matter where it takes place.

If an instructor is interrupting class to "grand stand" their prayer...that's wrong. I'll be with you in opposing that, unless it's a religious school of course.

Learning about religion is what church is for, and something the parents should cover at home; it is not the wheelhouse of public schools or their employees.

If a public school employee wants to pray alone on their lunch break, away from students, that is fine and protected. What is not protected is doing so in front of a class of students, who the teacher has sway over.

Parent's can send kids to religious schools if they want a religious based education with prayer in the classrooms; that is not what public schools are for or about.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Meme to Abort!

 

[Marduk]

The whole system is full of politically biased inconsistencies, shady excuses and outright bullshit.
Poking at the mere issue of praying is just a war over the iceberg's tip, and some have already touched upon what is there a bit lower.
The core of the issue is - to what degree the public institution's employees are bound to represent the employer's views, and to what should they be allowed to represent their personal ones. And these days you're gonna need a similar, or even the same system to also handle ideologies that aren't theistic but also have their own systems of belief they like to preach about, as various activist movements do, and in the end such issues are where religions and ideologies collide with various others - we can't forget about all sorts of green dogma, and all the preachiness the rainbow folk engage in. An internally consistent system with clear and fair rules to settle such disputes is something we are looking for here.

 

[Abhorsen]

And continuing to teach state atheism is going to do that how?

Failing to teach is not the same thing as teaching. I also stated I wanted them to teach any moral/religious/political values at all, because what the state will choose to teach will always be the worst possible choice of those. This is how you get satanism in schools, not christianity. Or perhaps actual Athiesm being taught, with a teacher telling her students how happy god doesn't exist every day.

 

[Scottty]

 

[Sobek]