Agree with one exception - everybody have soul,only some decided sell it to luciper.
LGBT and the US Conservative Movement
- Thread starter FriedCFour
- Start date
You have a point, to a degree.
I'd certainly trust an Amish or Jesuit or Buddhist or Shinto before I trust a Marxist.
However, if the only two options are to chose AuthRight religious fundies, or AuthLeft Marxists...I'm kinda getting to the point I'd just say 'A pox on both your houses' and completely stop caring about anything that I cannot control directly.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
Your zealotry blinds you from understanding Christian fundamentalists. If you weren't so blind you'd understand that while there are in fact some religious fanatics who are as bad as you fear, they're a miniscule minority who aren't welcome in any circles but their own, and are generally considered either cults or verging on it by most Christians.
While 'fundamentalist' has been turned into a dirty word for many, the original meaning was something closer to 'someone who believes strongly in the fundamentals.' Most Christian fundamentalists do believe in the 'Love the sinner, hate the sin' concept.
A grandmother of mine was a former Baptist Sunday School teacher, who never was ok with my mother and father not Baptizing me and my sister.
She was not a positive figure in my life, and often treated me and my sister like house servants when we visited on vacation.
I also had my oldest friend, who committed suicide in September, that was bullied by his parochial school teachers for his dyslexia and learning disabilities, which helped make him even more afraid to be around people or allow himself to show any weakness. He came from a large, but lapsed, Catholic family, who very much understood the way Christainity is used as a club by power hungry people to bullying others and feel self-righteous about it.
These are just the personal experiences I've had with fundies in my own life, and those experiences have very much given me a view into what fundies are like in person and on the day to day.
So it's not lack of understanding I have with regards to fundies; it is contempt from dealing with them in my personal life and seeing what it does to the people they see as 'less devout'. Thus, I will not engage them in the battle they wish to fight, and will not let them set the terms of my life or anyone else's.
There are obvious inherent differences in the personality between men and women. Inherent differences in what they can provide and what they are like biologically, different hormones, different desires, different outlooks. Men and women perform obviously different roles and always have everywhere and always will. All of this is general mind you, of course individuals are different but you can see clear trends everywhere you look in differences. A natural pairing and raising is going to have a mom and a dad clearly, because that’s what’s necessary to create you, and to be raised by both, and two men and two women obviously lack that. It’s not normalcy, it’s not remotely traditional, of which I believe that traditions hold inherent value in shaping your world view and outlook and giving us a cohesive society, to be raised by two men in a relationship or two women.
Well, it came after a declining and decadent Roman Empire and after the end of the medieval era you had mass scale warfare that was much more deadly and had higher body counts. The enlightenment also gave birth to absolutist monarchy, which I don’t think you’d particularly like, and was quite popular in much of Europe.There is some of that, but when you compare them to what came before, and what came after.Most of us aren't wannabee tyrant monarchists after all.
Mine is about preserving Western Civilization from attack first and then making it great again, then greater than it ever was before. Obviously we have differences, I value freedom but I don’t see it as the end all be all, and I see places where too much hands off leads to a society that is decadent, degenerate, and allows for people who want to subvert it and destroy its foundations to spread like wildfire. I’m not “ignoring everything else” about your ideology. I think it’s dogmatic and semi-religious like all political ideologies are. You STILL have not explained how your ideology isn’t like a religion, by the way, what makes yours not and all others like it.
People have less to bind them together, and a lot of our elites really are trash. Without things to guide them, when the material is all there is, obviously a lot of people will turn to envy and want more and will want to use means to get more than what they have. And when they believe that everyone is all equal, and should be equal, and see differences in outcomes between groups of people, they are going to want to end those. You don’t seem to really have much of any understanding of other ideologies that aren’t libertarianism.
Last edited:
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
...err...now I'm no history professor, but I think that's more down to gunpowder, increased populations, and the development of states into where they could actually afford and equip large professional armies like the Romans did.
And Rome did that over a thousand years before the Enlightenment.
Absolute monarchy goes all the way back to Sumer and Akkad. Bronze Age economies were vastly more centralised than those of 18th century Europe for God's sake.
prinCZess
Warrior, Writer, Performer, Perv
A police department I interacted with when I was younger--both because of my own stupidity, admittedly, but also because of others, including theirs--was not a positive figure in my life. They've also gotten in a good bit of trouble since for corruption and violations of rights and procedures. Such is poor justification for me diving into "All Cops Are Bastards" based upon.
Or, in reverse, positive experience and help I received from groups who'd be 'Christian fundamentalist' in presentation despite being actively antithetical to some of their own expressed ideology in my personal behavior wouldn't be enough for me to say all of them are similar and free from any asshole presentations or arrogance from getting caught up their own hind-ends
.There certainly are Christian fundie assholes. They may or may not be in larger proportion than exists in other communities (this is a larger, much shakier claim--and I'd honestly be inclined to argue the opposite based on personal experience...and could probably find objective argument to it based on charity or whatnot, but that'd be a bit of a manufactured basis itself and open to lots of BS). Point being, blanket categorization like this is lacking basis for such judgement in whole, rather than in individual or more particular group (Westboro Baptist Church as easy hit of 'Christian fundamentalist' group that would be commonly-agreed as assholes...including, to demonstrate the issue, by many other 'Christian fundamentalist' gorups).
I understand the point you are trying to make, and in general I agree.A police department I interacted with when I was younger--both because of my own stupidity, admittedly, but also because of others, including theirs--was not a positive figure in my life. They've also gotten in a good bit of trouble since for corruption and violations of rights and procedures. Such is poor justification for me diving into "All Cops Are Bastards" based upon.
Or, in reverse, positive experience and help I received from groups who'd be 'Christian fundamentalist' in presentation despite being actively antithetical to some of their own expressed ideology in my personal behavior wouldn't be enough for me to say all of them are similar and free from any asshole presentations or arrogance from getting caught up their own hind-ends
There certainly are Christian fundie assholes. They may or may not be in larger proportion than exists in other communities (this is a larger, much shakier claim--and I'd honestly be inclined to argue the opposite based on personal experience...and could probably find objective argument to it based on charity or whatnot, but that'd be a bit of a manufactured basis itself and open to lots of BS). Point being, blanket categorization like this is lacking basis for such judgement in whole, rather than in individual or more particular group (Westboro Baptist Church as easy hit of 'Christian fundamentalist' group that would be commonly-agreed as assholes...including, to demonstrate the issue, by many other 'Christian fundamentalist' gorups).
However, when fundies are part of the reason you oldest friend struggled so much in life, and only made his life worse when he was young, and used positions of authority to do it, that's something else. As well, when the fundies are in your own family, people you should be able to love and trust, and still cause you grief just because you aren't Baptized or being raise the way they want...it takes a different color than if they were just random people speaking on the web.
Also, I am leery of fundies, because fundies cannot adapt to a changing world, and often waste a lot of time trying to futilely turn back the clock. When they decide to go after same-sex marriage, instead of simply disproving of it but leaving it as a settled matter....that is when fundies go from annoying but tolerable, to direct threat to LGBs and to the future of the Right in general.
Maybe if fundies cared less about trying to make their beliefs into law, and accepted we live in a secular nation/society that has to deal with more than just their views/morals, it wouldn't be so bad.
DocSolarisReich
Esoteric Spaceman
“Maybe if those dumb Jesus lander sister fuckers accepted their place it wouldn’t be so bad”
King Arts
Well-known member
But the thing is Fundies, or Christians or religious fundamentalists their ideology isn't poisoning the world. Like yes there are bad individuals out there in those groups that are corrupt, or just use them as a cudgel when they really shouldn't. Like bullying due to minor mental disabilities like dyslexia is not Christian, the proper response to that would be understanding and compassion.
But on to the heart of the matter Christian conservatives not wanting to accept LGBT. Your argument is that we need to just deal with it because times are changing. But can't that argument be used for almost all conservative positions? The slippery slope is real bro, like now we say ok let's tolerate gays so we can stand against trans. But when we lose that fight we will go ok let's tolerate gays and trans to stand against incest, when that is a loss we can go alright let's tolerate gays, trans, and incest, to stand against pedos, when that fails let's tolerate gays trans, incest, pedos, to stand against bestaility, after that let's tolerate all of the above to fight against I don't know where this hell ride goes next, open human sacrifice?
I mean Christianity is conservative because we believe those things I've stated above are wrong, they should not be tolerated even if they are popular, and going at it that way will just lead to failure instead of offering a different way for society to move, we are instead merely slowing down the decay instead of combatting it and sending America in a good direction.
Not even close to what I said, but you get a Haha for the edge.
US law has to work with more then just one religious group, cannot show favoritism towards any religion, and cannot be dictated by any one religions ideology or viewpoints.
Except in my experience, a lot of fundies reject that dyslexia and the like are legit conditions, instead of excuses.
Also, I don't believe the 'slippery slope' situation is anything like what you claim. If a slope is slippery, maybe it means you should get better tires to handle it.
Really, that is what I am trying to do, is help the Right get better tires so we don't collectively slip the to the bottom of the slope on the ice the Left wants to lay out.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
Good grief, it's the same as the 'I knew one person in the Republican Party who was a racist' thing all over again.
Bacle, you are a bigot. You have allowed experiences with specific individuals to color your perceptions of large numbers of people you have never met. You are prejudging them based on what someone else has done, which is the literal definition of bigotry.
Further, you are literally holding to the position that people who believe in God are not allowed to participate in public discourse unless they forswear that belief. In other words, you are also an elitist and supremacist for secularism.
The two posts you have made on this page have revealed more about your position on Christianity than anything else you've posted on this thread. Your entire position is based on emotional responses to your past experiences, and have nothing to do with reasoned discussion or debate; you are not contributing usefully to discourse.
You are literally just insisting that because you've seen people be hurt, and been hurt, that people who resemble those who've hurt you have to sit down and shut up, and you've been very aggressive and abrasive about this.
Bigotry-fueled rants in no way contribute to productive discussion, here or elsewhere, and frankly, I'm getting sick of being judged by you for the actions of others.
DocSolarisReich
Esoteric Spaceman
That is exactly what you said, just with more plain spoken honesty. You don’t want to ‘defeat the left’ you just want to find an island of temporary hedonic stability so you can enjoy your property before you die in Benthamite utilitarian bliss and fade to nothingness or return to ‘energy’ or whatever.
You certainly aren’t concerned that anyone who actually believes what has been taught by the fathers and the doctors universally everywhere and everywhen will have to answer for what they did and failed to do.
King Arts
Well-known member
Protestarts? Yeah those guys have been what started liberalism in Christianity. You said your grandma was baptist why would she be pissed that her kids did not baptize their kids? Don't they not believe in infant baptism and wait until the kids grow up to do it?
And no trust me the slippery slope is real people decades ago were talking about it, from the beggining on how letting women vote(that specefic thing is not neccesarily bad just want to let you know, but it's where I first saw it) would lead to more extreme feminism like women being told to be sex positive, and so on, then when sex positivity and the hippy movement came up people said it would lead to bad things like single mom households and more promiscuity, and allowing other things that would be seen as depraved like men having sex with each other, being legalized. Then that happened and when people were arguing about allowing gays to marry people said it would lead to Christians and others who disapprove would be forced to accept it and support them, they were told they did not have to do that, well now there are people who are forced to bake cakes for gay weddings or their livelihoods will be destroyed because they are "bigots". This slippery slope is not a full on line, because it involved many interconnected groups based on orientation, race, gender, etc. I know I gave a jumbled answer and is disorganized but do you kinda see how we got to this point, and why people might think Christianity would be the best breaks for this since it prevented similar stuff for thousands of years?
Who do I want as my neighbor? A tambourine shaking fundie or a trans-racial non binary couple with they babies on the spectrum who are avid and admitted members of antifa and practice cultural deconstructivism?
I would much rather the Tambourine shaker.
See unlike you guys I grew up around real fascists. Some of which participated in the overthrow of a democratic government twice in their lives and I've lived next to American fundies.
And y'know what?
The Fascists I knew as a boy tended to be pretty chill unless you were being a degenerate or a criminal the rest of us were just ignored or given lectures that ranges from cringe to entertaining.
And the fundies? When I first came here my Bible thumping neighbors asked me why I came here and what happened and when they realized how bad it was even the damn grandparents would periodically call me to ask me how my family was doing and if they were safe.
Meanwhile my secular neighbors ignored me, the lefties actually called my father a traitor for getting his sons out of a Marxist Shithole and for voting Bush.
Yeah man those evil Bible thumpers! Not insulting the shit out of my family for loving America and praying for my relatives back home. Such evil! Much intolerance!
It's a telling thing when I could stomach sitting in a room with a man who ordered the deaths of 500 people for suspected communist activity but the Fedora Tippers and far left radicals are people I can't spend five minutes near without wanting to vomit and the average American would feel the same way.
Those people are literally more off putting than mass murdering tyrants.
I would much rather the Tambourine shaker.
See unlike you guys I grew up around real fascists. Some of which participated in the overthrow of a democratic government twice in their lives and I've lived next to American fundies.
And y'know what?
The Fascists I knew as a boy tended to be pretty chill unless you were being a degenerate or a criminal the rest of us were just ignored or given lectures that ranges from cringe to entertaining.
And the fundies? When I first came here my Bible thumping neighbors asked me why I came here and what happened and when they realized how bad it was even the damn grandparents would periodically call me to ask me how my family was doing and if they were safe.
Meanwhile my secular neighbors ignored me, the lefties actually called my father a traitor for getting his sons out of a Marxist Shithole and for voting Bush.
Yeah man those evil Bible thumpers! Not insulting the shit out of my family for loving America and praying for my relatives back home. Such evil! Much intolerance!
It's a telling thing when I could stomach sitting in a room with a man who ordered the deaths of 500 people for suspected communist activity but the Fedora Tippers and far left radicals are people I can't spend five minutes near without wanting to vomit and the average American would feel the same way.
Those people are literally more off putting than mass murdering tyrants.
Last edited:
You put a lot of words in my mouth there, and have proved that you cannot debate this subject in good faith.
I'm not going to waste anymore time engaging with you on this subject.
I have no idea what sect of Baptist she belonged to, or what age they think Baptism should happen at.
All I know is it was a source of friction, as well as the fact my mother was from a Irish Catholic family, and so wasn't the 'right sort' of Christian for her son to marry.
She didn't even come to the wedding, because my parents got married in front of a judge instead of a priest.
I think you are coming from a place of trying to actually find common ground/understanding, and do appreciate that.
I understand how Christians of many sorts feel about the Master Piece Cakeshop bullshit and why it scared/scares them. That case never should have been brought, and was obvious about pushing a political agenda using the poor baker as a pawn and lying about what they wanted from him, which is why SCOTUS ruled in the baker's favor.
However, understand LGBs are worried about the slippery slope of theocracy, as much as the fundies are the slippery slope of 'degeneracy'. Thus, it is best if we try to find tires that keep either slope from winning, and keep the fringes of both sides from dominating.
I'm not saying that's an easy thing, an easy balance to strike, but it is the balance that preserves the rights we all hold under the US Constitution.
going to have to second a lot of this.
I'm not a rich man I live in a used RV, when I put up Hannuka decorations and made little star of david cookies for the neighors the so called red necks around me were completely chill. The person who wreaked my decorations was a lefty who tried to blame said neighors but got caught on a security camera.
Instead of apologizing she called me the K word and acted like a total bitch.
Weirdly enough the fundies and rednecks are more tolerant then the leftists.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
From what I'm seeing in this thread, fundies have a very much "all or nothing" attitude, which could be mistaken for a nasty totalitarian streak by wider society. If they ever want to be a real political force, they'll have to square with that one day.
Right now though, they are a great deal less troublesome than the left. Whether or not that's down to either ideological differences or lack of power, remains to be seen.
Right now though, they are a great deal less troublesome than the left. Whether or not that's down to either ideological differences or lack of power, remains to be seen.