LGBT and the US Conservative Movement

[Bacle]

I think we should separate the large amounts Ts from those that fully change thier gender stuff

It'd be easier if we could just go back to calling a lot of them transvestites, and not transsexuals/transgenders.

Because that's what a lot of them are, women who want to dress and act like men, or men that want to act and dress like women.

 

[Largo]

Uh huh...that's why psyche wards exist, psychiatric hospitals exist, homes for the mentally disabled exist and the most severe cases of either are not granted custody of their children, or if they are in a diminished capacity.

I would also point out...Most groups of people mistreated by the system didn't commit CSA and or are implicated in improper conduct with minors/grooming in the eightieth percentile.

In other words, I'm right and you're out here tilting at windmills and wasting my time.

And now you're contradicting yourself. First it was that trans people should be allowed to live in normal society, just under incredibly harsh restrictions. To support this argument, you're using examples of people who aren't allowed to live in normal society, but are forcibly detained in some central location like a hospital or a ward.

So which is it? Should trans people be allowed to live in normal society, or should they all be forcibly confined somewhere?

 

[LindyAF]

Hell, I'd rather be in jail than live "free" under those conditions.

As far as I can tell the only suggested restriction was not being free to adopt, so... not being able to groom kids is just as bad as being in jail for trans?

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

I think we should separate the large amounts Ts from those that fully change thier gender stuff

I don't think people with hermaphroditism and other birth defects like that are properly trans? There are people who are physically female and yet their ovaries are partial testicles or something for example and a person like that is usually psychologically as well as genetically female minus an accident of birth and I don't think it would be fair to ascribe a transexual label to a person like that.

Most of those people are usually comfortable in their own skin and see themselves as a dude or a chick with a birth defect.

And now you're contradicting yourself. First it was that trans people should be allowed to live in normal society, just under incredibly harsh restrictions. To support this argument, you're using examples of people who aren't allowed to live in normal society, but are forcibly detained in some central location like a hospital or a ward.

So which is it? Should trans people be allowed to live in normal society, or should they all be forcibly confined somewhere?

No I said A woman who is transitioning to be a man, but goes off T and gets pregnant should be confined in a psyche ward while carrying the child and lose custody of that child for the same reason a psychotic schizophrenic would.

My position has been consistent throughout. Your attempts to misrepresent and lie about my position noth withstanding.

I said they shouldn't be allowed to adopt and should not be around minors.

Those restrictions are imposed for mental health as often as they are for criminal conduct. I said nothing about them being shunned from normal society outside of those conditions, you invented that in your head by misreading my posts during a titty attack.

As far as I can tell the only suggested restriction was not being free to adopt, so... not being able to groom kids is just as bad as being in jail for trans?

Shhh you're getting in the way of his virtue signaling!

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Oh

and while we're on the topic



Ralph Northam is poised to legalize sexual assault by deception.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

This thread has ranged rather far afield of the OP. So let me (re) ask here since there are now going on forty pages of talking past each other.

What is it then that LGBT bring to the round table of the American 'right' that makes up for their obvious and self evident cultural incompatibility with anyone who isn't a secular classical liberal?

Like, holding my nose to accept allies against the Reds is actually a thing, but what's in it for me?

 

[Lord Sovereign]

What is it then that LGBT bring to the round table of the American 'right' that makes up for their obvious and self evident cultural incompatibility with anyone who isn't a secular classical liberal?

Like, holding my nose to accept allies against the Reds is actually a thing, but what's in it for me?

I'd say the LGBT "group" is somewhat irrelevant. If people from that group, who have become disillusioned with leftism gone mad, find themselves swinging the way of the American Right, I see no reason to drive them out in the name of moral purity. "Strange bedfellows" and whatnot.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

I'd say the LGBT "group" is somewhat irrelevant. If people from that group, who have become disillusioned with leftism gone mad, find themselves swinging the way of the American Right, I see no reason to drive them out in the name of moral purity. "Strange bedfellows" and whatnot.

Amen.

The enemy is the Deconstructivist not anyone else.

Also amusingly enough a lot of the people on the Alt right @Guy of Z and @sir_fire and I have debated against over the years are transgendered. Some of them get so burnt out on leftism and so angry about what they feel is being used that they pivot to the far right.

Can't say I blame them, not that I endorse fighting a forest fire with napalm but yeah.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

I'd say the LGBT "group" is somewhat irrelevant. If people from that group, who have become disillusioned with leftism gone mad, find themselves swinging the way of the American Right, I see no reason to drive them out in the name of moral purity. "Strange bedfellows" and whatnot.

No one is proposing any sort of purge of the ranks. However, I personally refuse to accept or follow any and all Sodomite 'leaders' and view any attempt to change or 'soften' the goals of the KulturKampf to attract them to our side are ultimately self defeating, as that would just makes us what we fight.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

No one is proposing any sort of purge of the ranks. However, I personally refuse to accept or follow any and all Sodomite 'leaders' and view any attempt to change or 'soften' the goals of the KulturKampf to attract them to our side are ultimately self defeating, as that would just makes us what we fight.

you know what's hilarious? You more or less just paraphrased Martin Luthor King Junior when someone asked him if he wanted the LGB activists to join any civil rights coalition he was a part of.

I don't think you meant too, but it is interesting that you'd be demonized for saying the exact same set of words another dude would and he'd be cheered for it.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

No one is proposing any sort of purge of the ranks. However, I personally refuse to accept or follow any and all Sodomite 'leaders' and view any attempt to change or 'soften' the goals of the KulturKampf to attract them to our side are ultimately self defeating, as that would just makes us what we fight.

Agree to disagree, but if the other guy is willing you'll work together, essentially? That's fair.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

Agree to disagree, but if the other guy is willing you'll work together, essentially? That's fair.

For a guy that considers classical liberals to be the ur-progressives and the Founding Felons to be proto-communist traitors to their God given and anointed King? Yeah, I'm used to holding my nose in the face of the rainbow menace.

 

[LindyAF]

I'd say the LGBT "group" is somewhat irrelevant. If people from that group, who have become disillusioned with leftism gone mad, find themselves swinging the way of the American Right, I see no reason to drive them out in the name of moral purity. "Strange bedfellows" and whatnot.

Okay, but that doesn't justify changing any of the American Right's actual positions on the issues, which is what is being argued.

Additionally, I think part of what is appealing about the Right is, differentiation between virtue and non-virtue, and dislike for degeneracy. Not that we don't often fail in living up to our standards, but we are at least capable of setting standards that are naturally appealing to live up to. There's a cost then, to abandoning this.

Also amusingly enough a lot of the people on the Alt right @Guy of Z and @sir_fire and I have debated against over the years are transgendered.

For instance, while I haven't really seen this phenomena... I think insofar as they exist these people would be pretty naturally repellant to most people, so they'd generally be a net negative, even from a cynical strategic perspective.

I don't think there should be purges of the ranks, either, but IMO leadership should be held to a standard on this issue. Particularly any leadership that regularly interacts with children.

 

[Bacle]

I'd say the LGBT "group" is somewhat irrelevant. If people from that group, who have become disillusioned with leftism gone mad, find themselves swinging the way of the American Right, I see no reason to drive them out in the name of moral purity. "Strange bedfellows" and whatnot.

I think the only real issue that is causing strife is that some on the Right want to actively work to get rid of same-sex marriages.

Drop that issue and accept that it is a settled matter, and there wouldn't be much keeping sane LGBs from moving to the Right.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

I think the only real issue that is causing strife is that some on the Right want to actively work to get rid of same-sex marriages.

If this is a deal breaker for you, you and I cannot be allies, because it is a deal breaker for me. Because what you ask for is impossible to even consider, I am not capable, nor at liberty of placing it on the table in any possible negotiations. Marriage is a Sacrament. Full Stop. Sodomites may not enter.

 

[LindyAF]

Drop that issue and accept that it is a settled matter, and there wouldn't be much keeping sane LGBs from moving to the Right.

I think there's a phenomena at work here where right-wing members of minority group X interact disproportionately with the members of minority group X who are right wing, or at least moderate, and project the views they see here onto the rest of that minority group.

Yes, there would. For instance, your personal desire and the generally desire of "right-wing" LGBs to "drop the T" aside, the vast majority of LGBs are pro-T. LGBs also, generally, have far-left social views on almost every other issue. For instance, LGBs are so far left on abortion that even the main "right-wing" LGBT group, the Log Cabin Republicans, is officially neutral on abortion.

 

[Bacle]

If this is a deal breaker for you, you and I cannot be allies, because it is a deal breaker for me. Because what you ask for is impossible to even consider, I am not capable, nor at liberty of placing it on the table in any possible negotiations. Marriage is a Sacrament. Full Stop. Sodomites may not enter.

Good thing you aren't in a position to craft policy for the American Right.

There is a reason no GOP politician, or anyone who isn't a fundie nut, has tried to put forward this as a serious proposal.

Yes, I know there was a buried paragraph about it in the RNC platform. However, the RNC has shown it is the enemy of it's base with how they continually sabotaged Trump, and there is a reason Trump never made reversing same-sex marriage as part of his platform.

You want to strip them of their right to marry in the US, do not be surprised if LGBs decide to destroy your ability to hold any power over them at all, ever again.

I think there's a phenomena at work here where right-wing members of minority group X interact disproportionately with the members of minority group X who are right wing, or at least moderate, and project the views they see here onto the rest of that minority group.

Yes, there would. For instance, your personal desire and the generally desire of "right-wing" LGBs to "drop the T" aside, the vast majority of LGBs are pro-T. LGBs also, generally, have far-left social views on almost every other issue. For instance, LGBs are so far left on abortion that even the main "right-wing" LGBT group, the Log Cabin Republicans, is officially neutral on abortion.

I think fewer LGBs are pro-T, or against Right wing ideas, as you think.

They just feel people who want to strip them of the right to marry are a bigger threat that the Ts who are trying to hijack the movement.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

Good thing you aren't in a position to craft policy for the American Right.

Good for you I suppose.

You want to strip them of their right to marry in the US, do not be surprised if LGBs decide to destroy your ability to hold any power over them at all, ever again.

Literally how? How many of you do you think there are?

They just feel people who want to strip them of the right to marry are a bigger threat that the Ts who are trying to hijack the movement.

Actually you know what, here's the absolute limit I could reach, and it literally pains me to offer it. Start your own damn cult. With your own hierarchy and rituals and sacrifices, perform your own 'marriages'. Foreswear any ambitions to force my cult to recognize yours as valid and foreswear any attempt to use the state to force my ministers to administer your cult's rituals on demand.

Then you can have your damned Satanic-inversion 'marriage'.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

This thread has ranged rather far afield of the OP. So let me (re) ask here since there are now going on forty pages of talking past each other.

What is it then that LGBT bring to the round table of the American 'right' that makes up for their obvious and self evident cultural incompatibility with anyone who isn't a secular classical liberal?

Like, holding my nose to accept allies against the Reds is actually a thing, but what's in it for me?

I think the level of threat that enemy presents to us is so profound that our need for more soldiers in the culture and social war outweighs the considerations for that. That if we as a united right wanna have a conversation about whether or not we should include or exclude the alphabet soup and if yes or no to what degree...that is a conversation we should have after we've crushed the American left and permanently removed it from power.

Let us first win back the kingdom before we divide it is my take on it.

I can see how that position would be incongruent with someone in your corner of the right though and I have a solid idea of what your counter might be as well "If we're letting them in the clubhouse then we're fucked already" and I don't deny it from your perspective we would be.

I won't stop you from arguing that point or obstruct you from trying to bring about your position once the dust settles and we've won either.

That is a choice for Americans to decide and if you look at every time this has come up to a vote, they've been pretty damn clear they agree with you guys and not us on that point.

I'd just rather wait until after we've shitkicked the other guys to have that particular rodeo.

Okay, but that doesn't justify changing any of the American Right's actual positions on the issues, which is what is being argued.

Additionally, I think part of what is appealing about the Right is, differentiation between virtue and non-virtue, and dislike for degeneracy. Not that we don't often fail in living up to our standards, but we are at least capable of setting standards that are naturally appealing to live up to. There's a cost then, to abandoning this.

Amusingly enough when the Supreme Court decision happened I was with a few lesbians who got mad as hell about the decision because their places of employment gave them enhanced benefits to simulate the tax write offs and other benefits couples get. They knew they'd lose those because this was nationalized and were like "ah crap, now we have to marry our girls and if they divorce us they'll take half our shit"

I was like "Yeah welcome to normalcy, sucks don't it?"

And keep in mind when put to a vote the issue has always consistently lost even in super liberal places like California.

For instance, while I haven't really seen this phenomena... I think insofar as they exist these people would be pretty naturally repellant to most people, so they'd generally be a net negative, even from a cynical strategic perspective.

I don't think there should be purges of the ranks, either, but IMO leadership should be held to a standard on this issue. Particularly any leadership that regularly interacts with children.

And as we're seeing the right is almost as bad as the left in that regard and Trans culture has a serious problem with this.

 

[Bacle]

Actually you know what, here's the absolute limit I could reach, and it literally pains me to offer it. Start your own damn cult. With your own hierarchy and rituals and sacrifices, perform your own 'marriages'. Foreswear any ambitions to force my cult to recognize yours as valid and foreswear any attempt to use the state to force my ministers to administer your cult's rituals on demand.

Then you can have your damned Satanic-inversion 'marriage'.

Marriage is a state matter, not a religious matter, in the US.

So we don't need to do anything, because marriage is not the perview of any religion in the US.