DocSolarisReich
Esoteric Spaceman
Quite frankly we probably need a good series of state persecutions to trim us of our fat and crypto apostates.
LGBT and the US Conservative Movement
- Thread starter FriedCFour
- Start date
Quite frankly we probably need a good series of state persecutions to trim us of our fat and crypto apostates.
You are also someone who calls the Founding Father's the Founding Felons.
So thinking you have any sort of reasonable perspective on this issue, or many others I expect, is a futile exercise.
DocSolarisReich
Esoteric Spaceman
Are you starting to understand that some things aren’t negotiable yet?
We. Don’t. Care.
If you care about making common cause with US, you move.
LindyAF
Well-known member
Exit polls from 2016 are not exactly supportive of your position, since they have a Republican candidate who you view as being more on your side of the issue hit historic lows among LGBT voters. This isn't super strong support for my position either, but IMO its at least weak evidence in my favor on this.
Is Richard Grenell anti-trans? I can't find a statement either way on the issue. Should go without saying that what "right leaning LGBs on social media" think doesn't actually contradict what I said about people selecting for the right-wing of minority group X not getting anything like a representative sample.
The "fight to decriminalize homosexuality" tbh was imo an example of bad policy which only the establishment right endorsed for outreach reasons. One of the reasons we preferred Trump over the neocons and rinos was we thought he was less likely to get us involved in foreign entanglements or expend US resources pushing ideology elsewhere (and he was, for the most part). This isn't something I'd call lgbs supporting them being "on the right."
A majority of Republican voters oppose gay marriage. It's now a narrow majority, but it's still a majority. IMO anything that >20% of Republican voters are in favor of is hardly a "fringe" position, and calling a majority position fringe is just ludicrous.
The Right tries to appeal to every minority group on guns, that they're trying isn't evidence of anything. These outreach attempts are generally pretty much either worthless, or worth something only insofar as they sate sympathizers who aren't part of a minority group but want a defense to being called x-phobic or x-ist. If you have non-anecdotal evidence that these outreach efforts succeed, I'd be curious, but from what I've seen LGBs are not as a group in favor of the 2nd amendment in any real capacity. Yes, there are some groups, like pink pistols. You can find SOME people in the overlap of anything. That doesn't make them significant.
Also... at least going off of my (admittedly not extensive) experience with IRL activism in moderate conservative organizations, the people I interacted with, particularly those who were more in alignment with my views, were generally perfectly okay with emphasizing our areas of agreement and minimizing our areas of disagreement, when we think it is productive or necessary. Those of us who consider ourselves dissidents are generally pretty okay with straight up lying about our views when necessary. I'm not doing it on this issue, only because I don't think it's productive or necessary. But if I thought it was I would be.
Ah, missed that.
strunkenwhite
Well-known member
1a. They're being constantly judged. Judged against a standard no one with less destructive urges is held to, because their urges are that destructive. I don't know how you think they aren't being judged.
1b. "Dangerous aberration (that must be controlled)" is perfectly in line with how I read those articles you cited.
2a. Your contortions are nonsensical. By your standard no couple should get a marriage license until the female is in her second trimester at a minimum. It is only by the grace of the state that said license is not rescinded upon the death of the child.
2b. I was asking for your evidence that polygamy is bad, fool.
What I proposed there is also done to the severely mentally ill.
Yet he frames it like I wanna gas them
DocSolarisReich
Esoteric Spaceman
What I proposed there is also done to the severely mentally ill.
Yet he frames it like I wanna gas them
Didn't you get the memo brah? Hurting their feelz with bad words is violence.
I don't have to move, or negotiate with you, because same-sex marriage is the law of the land, and it is you that wishes to reverse it.
Outside of this forum, I have never seen even hardcore Christians talking about actively trying to repeal same-sex marriage, instead of simply disproving of it.
And if you cannot make common cause with me because you are such a fundie nut job, that's no skin off my back; I can make common cause with the less fundie parts of the Right who aren't planning to waste time going after same-sex marriages.
That narrow majority that wants to reverse same-sex marriage is going to continue shrinking as time goes forward.
I see a lot of politicians on the Right who want to bring in more LGBs, not less, and who definitely don't make repealing same-sex marriage a talking point or major party platform.
You and others keep forgetting Trump's base is more than just the GOP, it's a lot of ex-Dems and independents, many of whom have LBG friends. Those people will not vote R if the GOP backslides into the anti-LGB movement it was when I was in highschool and most of college.
In fact I can garuantee that backsliding on LGB issues is a wonderful way to make sure the Right never gets large disaffected Dem or Independent votes again. Without those, the GOP would have to look to it's shrinking and aging hardcore social-con part of it's base to get votes, and they just aren't their in the numbers or locations needed at this point.
Morphic Tide
Well-known member
So, how is gender dysphoria on the level of paranoid hallucinagenic schizophrenia? Or other sorts of outright psychosis? Gender dysphoria is also not actually universal to those with the noted neurological signs, but rather there exists those who only possess instinctual preferences of the opposite sex.
It is a vanishingly miniscule subset of transgender persons truly innately unable to function in society. On the level of defining properties of transgenderism, this is a matter of mis-alignment, not contradiction. The paedophilic undertone is solely an aspect of the social movement looking to force normalization.
One can medicalize transgenderism without treating it as violent psychosis. This is in fact my own position, such that I agree with much of the policy calls, but demand a diagnostic and filing those accommodations under medical aid rather than non-discrimination.
DocSolarisReich
Esoteric Spaceman
As if unemployed working class yellow dog dems give a shit about buttsecks, lel.
I believe we have our answer, LGBT brings nothing to the round table other than a desire to put us through humiliation rituals and agree with them that there are five lights.
Ah yes, calling what I said 'gaslighting', instead of the truth of the situation.
Also, if you think that ex-Dems and independents don't care, well:
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
So, ten years there should have been no negotiation with you, because homosexual marriage was not the law of the land?
So for an exit poll, the LGBTs voted 28 to 61 for Trump to Biden in 2020, and it's trending upwards. Dem's are trying to head this off by forcing an equality law vote (they absolutely don't care if it wins or loses, as the law is basically already the law of the land since Bostock). So this will increase in the future, now that there's no reason to vote for LGBT rights.
LindyAF
Well-known member
I've seen this. IMO this is part of a broader phenomena in which Trump went from at about the low waterlevel of minority support for the GOP to the high water level. If this trend continues and it starts going much above that, then I'm wrong, but until that happens I don't think this is super significant.
But what I'm curious about here is the opinions on LGBT people are on the issues (particularly social ones). Specifically, @Bacle and a few others I think have been saying that most LGB people are for "dropping the T" or something similar. I don't think this is true.
It's not so much the T as it is the weirdos/grifters.
Basically, there are normal trans people, who just transition then just want to act as the other sex, and not do anything weird. Think Blair White, Buck Angel, two people (out of many 'fakes' (including me, I'll get to that below)) that I met in college, etc.
Then there are two other groups (and they quite distinct). There's barely transitioned people who are confused, and are 'non-binary'. That's not a thing. Usually they don't know what they are doing, especially college aged ones (I was one, til I realized that no, I don't have dysphoria, I'm just comfortable in a skirt cause I'm bi and kinky. It's one of the reasons I'm confident non-binaries don't exist. Snapping out of this was part of the reason I'm so happy I left the left. I could have disfigured my body for no reason if I had gone further, and that scares me (Don't think I've ever announced this online either)). These kids are setting themselves up for a possibly horrible future life. I'm lucky I matured fast enough.
Then there are abusive male sex offenders who want to exploit the system. These are almost all MTF, and seem to be fine transitioning.
This is what I think people are fine dropping, but to often normal T's are wrapped up in this bullshit.
You know, I had a whole angry rant ready, but I won't convince you, so I just going to move on.
Part of the issues with Ts is also the male athletes who use is as a short cut to medals, because transitioning (assuming that don't just dress like a chick and 'identify as trans' without getting the surgeries) doesn't effect the muscle mass much, due to them being fulling grown already.
It is a biological reality that men have more upper body strength on average than women, and don't have periods, and a lot of the Ts propoganada likes to ignore this issue.
Also, Ts have been known to use the military to get the surgery done, on the taxpayers dime. Transitioning is not a cheap set of procedures, and is purely elective; the tax payer shouldn't be footing the dime for that.
Related to that, a LOT of docs/surgeons/psyche professionals have realized 'helping' people transition can make them a lot of money. Do the math.
LindyAF
Well-known member
@Bacle has been using the term "LGB" pretty exclusively, which is terminology I've generally seen with people who do want to totally drop the T. (Although I see he's responded, and he knows his positions better than I do) My argument has been that I think "right-wing LGBT" people selects for people who disapprove of the extremes of the LGBT movement, and since people generally associate with likeminded people, you guys have a distorted view of how popular it is with the broader LGBT movement. This manifests with people who want to drop the T & assume this is popular with the rest of LGB, but I think it also manifests with what I've heard called a "transmed" (or "truscum") faction, who think the "non-binary" stuff isn't popular with the rest of LGBT. Although I admittedly haven't been able to find data one way or another on this.
I do agree with you that there are a couple different types of people being lumped together under T, when at very least there's no particular reason to assume they have the same causes. I don't think the male sex offenders you're talking about are meaningfully different from late-transitioning agp-type mtfs, though. I think it's probably just that agp-type mtfs commit abuse at high rates.
Regardless of what you think will be the majority in the future, it is hardly a fringe position right now.
And by this logic you might as well throw in the towel on every issue you're right wing on. If you're on team [current year] and "long arc of history" why not just be a dem? Is it just that how quickly dems are moving on stuff the disquiets you?
Because the march of progress isn't going to stop exactly when you want it to like you seem to think it is. How is this any different than pointing out that, say, the # of Rs who are pro trans in women's sports, or pro trans in women's restrooms, or pro trans in the military has increased over the past 10 years, and saying people who have your own position on these issues are fringe, or doomed?
And idk. I know current trends are arguably against people who think like me, but I think we're going to win out, in the end. It's easy to be in favor of something when it's far off and you can get the most positive veneer the media can paint. But as the rot spreads it becomes harder and harder to disguise.
I'm in college. I've done normie conservative campus activism (when everything isn't shut down). I'm not fringe for this, and I'm a lot less fringe than I thought I was before I started.
Have you ever seen a politician say "no, we definitely don't want any more of [minority group X]?" There's a lot of politicians on the Right who want to bring in more X, where X is literally any minority group. It's a bit that plays well with the donor class.
Trump's winning coalition in 2016 was the least LGBT since it has been recorded. He tied for lowest with HW Bush in 1992 when the Right was split between HW Bush and Perot. He got about 33% less LGBT voters than the usual Republican. Like yeah, Trump's a new york guy who everyone knew didn't feel super strongly either way on this issue, and he held a rainbow flag upside down at a rally once, or something? But I don't think anything supports your belief that Trump's ambiguity on this issue was something that was hugely appealing to his base.
I am okay with deprioritizing the issue, I think most people on my side of this view it as a less serious or immediate issue than, say, no-fault divorce. Or immigration. I know for myself at least it's at the bottom the heap. And I agree that stressing the issue isn't particularly beneficial. But it was in the platform in 2016 and 2020, it's still a majority of GOP voters. Acting like this is a make-or-break issue for anyone beyond a small minority is ridiculous.
I mean, I go to pride (or did, before Covid), and I was going in Boston. I was the only conservative in my friend groups (as I was living in Boston). I have a pretty decent grasp of how LGBT people act. And most of them are what I call default liberals. They don't think much about politics, and will vote democrat. These are people that are waiting for a red pill (as I was there), and they are in the process of moving over. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
Eh. Usually the type I'm talking about have offended before transitioning.
ParadiseLost
Well-known member
Trans athletes are like .001% of trans people. Same for Trans in the military.
"Part of the issues with Ts is something .002% of Trans people do." .002% of a given demographic are exploiting things they shouldn't be exploiting? Stop the presses!
You're basically doing the standard dog whistle thing of taking something a minuscule fraction of a group is doing and trying to apply it to the whole group to slander them. Its ridiculous.
Holy dumpster fire, I didn't know someone could be this wrong.
Lets go through the list of all the medical stuff transitioning requires:
Psychiatric treatment (IE billable hours with a shrink): Trans people are not ideal patients. They are poor, lots can't afford private insurance. Generally public insurance pays psychiatrists and others able to prescribe medications so little that they don't accept it.
Top Surgery: Trans people are an irrelevant part of this market, the vast majority of it is upper class women who lack confidence.
SRS: The vast majority don't get this and not many doctors globally do it.
The idea that somehow one of the poorest demographics in the US who primarily get their insurance from an incredibly stingy government agency who especially likes to pay mental health workers way below their normal rates is somehow an incredibly lucrative demographic is just ridiculous.
Most of the 'problems' with trans people that people like to present so that they don't have to say "I just don't like trans people," are silly.
If you don't like trans people, just say so. Don't hide it behind excuses that we'd consider laughably ridiculous if the equivalent arguments were coming from the mouth of a SJW.