Is Le Pen the best choice for France?
- Thread starter JagerIV
- Start date
The eu needs them more than the french need the eu
Buba
A total creep
I assume that "it is complicated". And might be beyond the Human Mind to grasp
Leaving the EU => no more Euro currency => what happens to cost of servicing French Government debt, which is at 115% of GDP?
I would not expect debt in Francs to be as "cheap" as in Euros. France will save on contributions to the EU budget (it is a net contributor) but would those savings cover the gap I expect different interest rates to create?
I could be wrong, of course.
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Aldarion
Neoreactionary Monarchist
Optics have been important since Agamemnon, but it has only been since appearance of democracy that optics became an absolute key. There were many good rulers who saved their countries despite bad optics.
Not really.
And the communist argues for the abolishment of the state and absolute freedom. That statement is equally unconvincing.
Every conversation with you reinforces my belief that the mainstream Libertarian, which you seem a part of, serves this handmaid role to socialism. What that means has been explained several times before. Your confusion over this, such as your defense of Rousseau, from which many of the terrible leftist ideas are laid out, as not a leftist proto communist, merely highlights you being unself aware as a handmaiden, which is my assumption for most mainstream Libertarians.
Useful idiots as the communists say.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
I think we've been speaking past each other. I feel like one can "do what needs to be done" whilst not sticking their foot in their mouth. The right has a problem here (thanks to polarisation), quite like the left. What was it that Republican Congresswoman said about "Jewish Space Lasers" or something? I mean, for heaven's sake, what was there to gain from saying that?
Libertarianism and Classical Liberalism operate off the NAP and are in favour of private property, which is pathologically opposed to socialism. You're thinking of Neo-Liberalism, which does actually enable leftism due to its fecklessness, technocratic tendencies and runaway materialism. Neo-Liberalism is also something Classical Liberals and Libertarians aren't exactly fond of either.
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That's anarchism, not communism. Communism is the 'dictatorship of the proletariat'. It most definitely has a state, government, and little freedom.
This is because you don't seem to know anything about what you talk about. Your insistence that Libertarianism depends or cares at all about Rousseau is a classic example of this.
I don't know about you, but advocating for someone in favor of more government power and control seems to be a faster way to socialism than arguing for less government control. You can get to effective communism following the primrose path of the european right as well.
Simonbob
Well-known member
It's true.
However, I've also met a number of people who can't understand Libertarian thought. They just cannot think in those ways, so they create their own version, and it's inevitable that it'll take the open nature of Libertarianism and fill it in in ways that make sense to them (But not to actual Libertarians). On top of that, Libertarianism is influentual enough that power hungry folk will use it to grift, from time to time.
Libertarianism is very open. It's purely economic. It, in theory, has nothing to say about social matters, and when it is applied, just says "between consenting adults...", and that very open-ness leads to people using the broken open area for their own use.
To boil it down? Libertarianism opens things up. Done properly, it helps immensely. But, like almost all ideologies, nobody does it properly, or really can. People can only think what they can think.
KilroywasNOTHere
"BEEP!"
I think here in America at least the public education has done it's work. We have been so indoctrinated with the idea of society working from the top down that we essentially have this idea that without a big government to tame them, humans are just cleaver apes. Even when reacting against the progressives (Which that in itself is an ironic name) We still look at everything through the progressive lends of big government, a prominent caste system, heavy emphasis on social programs, tight economic regulation, ect hence why we are seeing all this avocation for things like Monarchism and national socialism. we fight fire with fire. It's because that's all we know. If all your life you've been taught the earth is flat and you've spent year studied in the "sciences" of how this is the case, are you really going to be able to accept the idea that the earth is in fact a sphere that revolves around the sun even when all evidence points to this conclusion. You can but not without having a mental breakdown and questioning your very existence at first.
It's going to take a long time to undo the decades of propaganda and instill self-determinism again.
Simonbob
Well-known member
I'm not really sure it's possible. There's no frontier, no place where you can get away from the slavers, who need control.
Look, I went through that propaganda mill, same as pretty much everybody else here. But, I can, and did, see how Libertarianism can work. Some people I've met? Just can't. Just can't stretch their minds in that way.
The propaganda doen't help. It's certainly part. Might be the majority. But, it might not. It's one of the main reasons I'm against immagration. Most people just don't, and can't, change.
KilroywasNOTHere
"BEEP!"
perhaps but I mean by that same logic just because humanity is beyond saving and 99.99% of it is destined to burn to ash forever to be forgotten doesn't change the fact that in order to be saved you must embrace Jesus Christ to be saved. Just because failure is inevitable doesn't mean you don't at least try to bring the truth to some. You can be blackpilled and declare that things can't change if you want, but at that point you've pretty much forsaken your right to speak and would be better off unplugging and isolating yourself from the masses. Nobody in thier right mind speaks out about gravity making things fall or water being wet. It's a fruitless endevor that waste valuable air.
Simonbob
Well-known member
There's a reason I'm more interested in fiction than many other things.
KilroywasNOTHere
"BEEP!"
hey fair enough.
Yes, if you define Communism in a way that excludes Marx, sure. It just means another point of evidence you don't know anything to me however.
I never said anything about Libertarianism depending on Rousseau. I used it as an example of your beliefs being poor in your defense of him. You making up my position does not raise my opinion of the rest of your arguments.
Advocating for no government power to fight the communists will result in communism even faster. If you argue fighting communists is morally equivalent to being communists, the realness of your anti communist stance is questionable.
Its also questionable how you regard Le Pen as meaningfully more big government than Macron, outside he uses government power for leftist ends, while Le Pen would assumedly use power for rightist ends. Which is how Libertarians, certainly of the Reason variety, help the racket left. It suggests a view that isn't really as neutral on the question of the use of power as it claims.
Which you really can't be. Law is about 1) Enforcing Morality, 2) Rewarding friends and punishing enemies. And the modern libertarian fairly consistently falls on supporting a particular morality and rewarding and punishing particular groups. You can't help but do so, since that is the heart of Law and Politics. Libertarians are just mostly in denial and delusion about what they are actually doing.
KilroywasNOTHere
"BEEP!"
so basically, law is a gun in each hand and saying "My package is bigger than yours." That's totally appealing and doesn't make me just want to say "Forget it" at all. I give it
King Arts
Well-known member
Are you a child yes! That is what law is and American people on the right who worship libertarian thought just let the left get what they want.so basically, law is a gun in each hand and saying "My package is bigger than yours." That's totally appealing and doesn't make me just want to say "Forget it" at all. I give it
KilroywasNOTHere
"BEEP!"
I get the strangest feeling you wouldn't think the same way if you were the one left dying. Just a feeling.
Well, that's why we don't want the communists to win, which part of the argument is the Libertarians indirectly help? Thus, if Libertarians are helping communism, then in the interest of not dying Libertarianism has to be resisted. I don't like the idea that Libertarians seem to be serving that role. Freedom is a noble goal in and of itself. They just show themselves, especially the recent crop of them, to be totally worthless. Which is terrible, and I wish they would make reasonable arguments that actually dealt with the criticism, but my arguments with them have blackpilled me a bit on this.
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KilroywasNOTHere
"BEEP!"
because who get's to to define right and what happens when you are on "The wrong side of history" AKA the governments hit list. I almost guarantee you when you are shot to death because the government declares you "a invalid." You won't be saying "I lost." or "good game." or "Tis only just." no you'll probably cry out "Where is my justice." or "Woe is me." by your logic it sounds like you should have made sure your justice was loaded.
heck why even worry about right or wrong at all? I just need to make sure to have a big iron on my hip. Maybe a little something for crowd control in case a posse tries to burn my house down. (this is sarcasm people) you know there is a name for a group of people who's righteousness is their gun. They are called gangs.
edit: You know I was originally being partally sarcastic when I said I trust mercinaries with my life more than I would trust a government, maybe that mentality is actually warranted though.
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