Is Le Pen the best choice for France?
- Thread starter JagerIV
- Start date
Lololol. No they haven't. Europe has a huge immigration problem because of its socialist policies. It's free stuff. You can't have open borders and socialist policies, and France can't close its borders, and the only reason it even has a chance of doing it successfully is other countries giving more freebies out.
While I wish we had this, we very much do not, especially in Europe.
They don't have to assimilate cause they don't have to work cause of the gimmes.
ShieldWife
Marchioness
There are some advantages and some disadvantages to government programs, safety nets, regulations, and other things sometimes called socialism in the USA. If France became less socialist, there would be some economic benefits, but some downsides as well. In either case, it might be something worth debating under other circumstances.
In the current state of France, those issues are insignificant though. French people don’t need to be wealthier, they are doing fine in that regard. Their socialism has worked okay for many decades, with pros and cons as I mentioned. Immigration is the existential crisis which will destroy France as well as most nations of Western Europe within one human lifetime.
Eliminating gibs in France would only slightly help immigration. People from shitholes in Africa and the Middle East would still want to come to France for the safety and prosperity even if there were far less gibs. Nations have managed to exist for thousands of years because they had soldiers at the borders to kill people who try to invade and modern Europe needs to do that too if they are going to have any future at all.
For many years the treacherous treasonous controlled opposition who has been in charge of the right has tricked conservatives into thinking that the fight is between capitalism and socialism - which couldn’t be further from the truth. The true fight is between nationalism and international. Will the peoples of the world have the right to self determination or will they be enslaved by multinational corporations, banks, and foreign powers.
In the current state of France, those issues are insignificant though. French people don’t need to be wealthier, they are doing fine in that regard. Their socialism has worked okay for many decades, with pros and cons as I mentioned. Immigration is the existential crisis which will destroy France as well as most nations of Western Europe within one human lifetime.
Eliminating gibs in France would only slightly help immigration. People from shitholes in Africa and the Middle East would still want to come to France for the safety and prosperity even if there were far less gibs. Nations have managed to exist for thousands of years because they had soldiers at the borders to kill people who try to invade and modern Europe needs to do that too if they are going to have any future at all.
For many years the treacherous treasonous controlled opposition who has been in charge of the right has tricked conservatives into thinking that the fight is between capitalism and socialism - which couldn’t be further from the truth. The true fight is between nationalism and international. Will the peoples of the world have the right to self determination or will they be enslaved by multinational corporations, banks, and foreign powers.
No, the fight is between individualism and collectivism. Nationalism is already a compromise that isn't always good. I love America because it has done wonders for individual rights, not because I was born in it.
And socialism and it's disregard for boundaries of any sort, from private property to borders, is always the chief threat. Le Pen is just a half assed socialist.
And people citing that France's socialist policies did work don't understand how socialism fails. It's inefficient, slow to adapt, and encourages freeloaders. So now that things have changed, they will not work, become outdated, and encourage more problems.
King Arts
Well-known member
Ok, you obviously don't know too much about how people work, but then again you are a libertarian so it fits. No Europe has an immigration problem not because of socialism, but because of the rich. You see the rich the owners of the factories, the job creators want lower wages so they can cut costs. The same problem is in America with the Mexican immigrants crossing the border. The local working class are asking for too much that the upper class does not want to pay. So the upper class will bring in "strike breakers" aka 3rd worlders who WILL work for cheap. It has nothing to do with gibs, America has less gibs and they still get immigrants coming in. It's capitalism 101 cut down costs and increase profit regardless of the greater needs of the nation or people as a whole.
Yes we know you support globo homo. Allow rich to do whatever they want spend however much money they want on whatever they want to influence politicians under free speech, support gays or trannies under their freedom of expression. Pretty much things that conservatives should be against since that is basically what the democrats are doing right now.
No it has nothing to do with gibs, you don't know shit about the situation. It has to do with importing large ammounts of people to come in and work for lower wages, then those people all gather together in their own ghettos and stick to their own. Most of them probably contribute to your precious economy it's just that they are socially and ethnically disruptive.
Individualism has given us the utter hell that is the modern world. It's liberalisms main talking point. No it was the biggest mistake out of the enlightenment. People do deserve rights, but man is not an island, people are social animals that gather into families, clans, tribes, and nations and those rights of a collective nature are more important than most individual rights.
EDIT: Also the socialism of France is not what is stopping it from adapting, it's your vaunted individual rights that prevents harsh measures being taken against Muslim immigrants that don't conform, or preventing any more from coming in by putting border guards with orders to shoot at illegals.
ShieldWife
Marchioness
Individualism is a bit of an illusion. We have a whole nation of individuals: watching the same movies, watching the same TV shows, adoring the same degenerates celebrities, reading the same books in the same kinds of schools. Everyone is an individual, just like all of their friends.
We need people who are parts of communities. Who carry on the traditions of their fathers and pass them on to their sons. Who are true neighbors, not merely people who live next to each other. Atomized populations are easily controlled, ironically making them part of a world wide empire.
I’m not saying that people shouldn’t have individual rights and liberties, those things are good, but communities and by extension nations are a vitally important part of human existence that actually help preserve true individuality by allowed people with a shared sense of identity to have self determination.
We need people who are parts of communities. Who carry on the traditions of their fathers and pass them on to their sons. Who are true neighbors, not merely people who live next to each other. Atomized populations are easily controlled, ironically making them part of a world wide empire.
I’m not saying that people shouldn’t have individual rights and liberties, those things are good, but communities and by extension nations are a vitally important part of human existence that actually help preserve true individuality by allowed people with a shared sense of identity to have self determination.
Yinko
Well-known member
Communal identities usually end up being a lot more strict than merely individuals with something in common. I don't mean to argue against what you're saying, I think you're right. It's just that a lot of Asian and Middle-Easterners I've known are perfectly willing to change anything about themselves if it means not being ostracized from the group in any way. Opinions, even just what they want to eat, get made very vague, because they might contradict what someone else in the group wants. You can't say anything personal, because that might cause conflict. There has to be a healthy balance between the atomized individual and the communal straight-jacket.
ShieldWife
Marchioness
You make a good point and I agree. I’m not for eliminating individuality in favor of community standards. I’m glad that Western society values individuality, but individuality isn’t the end all be all of a society’s health, it has its benefits and it’s drawbacks.
This is 100% about gibs, also known as minimum wage, and all the forced benefits European countries force employers to offer, which is why European employees are prevented by the government from competing with immigrants, basically giving job guarantees to immigrants. So yeah, that's socialism failing again, encouraging immigration. Thanks for giving me an example to prove my point.
So no, I do know how people work, it's basic economics that you don't understand.
Uhuh. Sure. No, it's the vaunted individualism that stops them from arresting you for hate speech. Cause spoiler, you have no power. If a strongman comes to power now, he won't be on your side, and you'll be up against the wall first.
People like you are the biggest morons. You think laws are the problem, so you cut them all down when they are the only thing stopping those in power coming for you.
Sure community is important, but they aren't necessarily good just because they are a community. What matters is the values that community upholds, the communal aspect just makes those values more potent and lasting. The Taliban is a very enduring community, but not a good one, for example.
The values they need to uphold to be moral are individualistic ones, like people can disagree without fighting, private property is important, etc. These are the core western values, and one of the ways we became so powerful is that we allowed for competition so that the best would win.
ShieldWife
Marchioness
Yikes, get rid of the minimum wage and benefits for all French workers so that they can compete with people from destitute war zones? So the idea is that the French should have to work 70 hour weeks for a dollar an hour so that they can compete with immigrants?
Minimum wages probably protect French workers, because if you’re going to pay €15 per hour anyway, might as well get a person who can speak fluid French, has some education, and won’t generally misbehave. If you can get someone for work for far less, then maybe you you won’t care as much about the flaws more common to immigrants.
Look, I’m for many aspects of free markets and smaller government, but no amount of free market libertarianism can make up for not having a border - which any nation must have in order to exist.
Close the borders, expel the invaders, then we can discuss tax rates, regulations, and welfare.
See, they already do compete with those people in reality. But the immigrants have a massive advantage in that they are willing to work illegally and don't have to deal with the laws. The laws don't protect the French, the laws kneecap them.
And quite bluntly, France is unable to close its borders. Other than just the EU, the economic pressure the immigrants are under is so great they will risk death to come over. A border fence is the least of the roadblocks in their way. Economics is more powerful than laws or police. You must stop the demand and divert them to another country to have any success.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Not to condone them, but there are some rather swift and...well...brutal methods of dissuading migrants. "Whiff of grapeshot" and all that.
ShieldWife
Marchioness
So just make France suck as much as any country in Africa or the Middle East so that the immigrants don’t gain anything by leaving their homes?
You have to use violence to expel them and keep them out, killing them if necessary. Just like any nation that has ever existed in history has done when invaders come. If we can’t face the reality that nations must use force to protect their existence, then we will lose our nations.
That's the problem in France. What major candidate in France is not very in favor of these things?
So are they just economically dumb within norm of French politics, or are somehow managing to be much worse in that regard when compared to even their realistic alternatives?
Correction, France is unwilling to do what it takes to close its borders.
There are some countries with high wages that don't have those "better ask for forgiveness than permission" kind of unwanted economic immigrants. How do they do that?
How is South Korea or Japan not swarming with them?
How is Saudi Arabia?
How is Australia even (they did have exactly that problem, for a time)?
The only way to stop the demand is to make it not worth trying, one way or another.
Simonbob
Well-known member
That that's even partialy correct isn't something I enjoy. But, there's a reason why I'm not a Libertarian any more.
We still are. It's just almost entirely legal. Our legal immigration is massive, and didn't even slow throughout COVID.
Captain X
Well-known member
And here we see hyperbole.
They are unable to do that because they lack the political will, not to mention it would sink their economy further as the EU abandons them and they'd get sanctioned.
Again, you start on this dumb idea. First, the solution I'm advocating is removing socialism, so your statement is just dumb. Second, I'm not saying that we must allow immigration because libertarian ideals, I am using economic arguments to show you have no realistic way of stopping immigration. Because quite frankly, France doesn't have the balls (read: political will) to close its borders, with all that will cause.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
They'd get a strongly worded letter, and that would be the end of that. Besides, tightening up the borders is a hell of a lot more straightforward than you might think.
France is now one of two main players in the EU. It would be a very *interesting* conflict with no obvious winner. Note how reluctant the EU is in sanctioning even a small country like Hungary.
What economic arguments prevent stopping immigration? As i said, there are both rich, poor, and economically average countries that are both willing and able to set their immigration low. What do they have that France doesn't, except political will? Which is something subject to political and cultural changes, and can change quite quickly if the winds blow the right way - and currently, they do (see: sum of support for Le Pen and Zemmour).