United States George Floyd Protests, Reactions and Riots

StormEagle

Well-known member
Chauvin, at the absolute worst, probably deserved a manslaughter charge. You could at least make a more solid case for that than an outright murder charge.

However, I do think there was jury intimidation going on here. From the riots around the case, to congresswomen and senators calling for violence if they didn’t get their desired verdicts.

Hell, if I’m remembering right, I think there was a story of someone sneaking a camera into the courtroom and getting a picture of the jury as well as a leak of the jury members names.

That alone should have been enough to declare a mistrial.

Ultimately, I think it was nearly impossible for Chauvin and the other officers to receive a fair trial. I also don’t see SCOTUS taking up the case, due to the political volatility and consequences of doing so.

You can argue, and I’d agree, that the court should not care about and should not involve itself with the political aspects of a case. That only justice and constitutionality should matter to them.

In an ideal world, that’s how the courts should function. Sadly, we don’t live in that world.

If only we could clone Justice Thomas and have eight of him and a clone of Scalia sitting on the court.
 

Cherico

Well-known member


The problem with new york is that the city has so many people that it takes a while for mass exoduses to really impact the city, but considering how pretty much all property in the city is drastically over priced....and that either doing work online or moving operations is much cheaper....

Well their going to have to do things with a lot fewer taxes.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
I remember I was really wrong about him being guilty of 3rd degree murder, as I was pretty sure, but that was tossed out. I didn't think he was guilty of second degree either, I don't think, but I could have been wrong about that, it was a while ago.

How do you convict someone of first degree murder when he didn't meet the criteria for third degree?

That trial was a cluster fuck and IIRC Floyd's heart was the size of a basketball or someshit. That was a dead man walking.

At this point there is no untainted jury pool.

I would acquit him just to spite the establishment, hell I'd do the same for anyone short of McVeigh because fuck baby killers but yeah, me and millions of others.

All I care about is that the mindless hordes who serve globohomo want him in jail so humiliate and castigate the foot soldier, he must go free.

To cause a loss of face for the elites, he must go free.
 
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ShieldWife

Marchioness
Chauvin’s trial was a ridiculous political show trial and even a murder charge, much less a conviction, is ridiculous. His conviction should be overturned because overturning it is just and right, all other political considerations aside. It’s also right because the people who railroaded him are destroying Western civilization and if we don’t fight them then they will win not only against Chauvin, but against all of us and against civilization and liberty itself.

That said, if the last few have shown me anything, it’s that a high percentage of police are absolute trash. You can have people marching in support of police getting beaten up by Antifa saying “fuck the police” while the police stand by and make sure the pro-police side doesn’t fight back. They stand by while BLM terrorists burn down cities and terrorize innocent people and then fucking literally wash their feet. Chauvin’s conviction should be overturned but not for the sake of the police.
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
It isn't the military that will support the Left in a coup...FBI, ATF, and all of those militarized police we have in the US. War on Drugs, War on Terror....look at what they have done for the police.
Yeah, the War on Drugs has militarized the police against citizens for decades - including civil forfeiture, no-knock raids, smelling something for probable cause, and so on. The War on Terror stepped that up.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
How do you convict someone of first degree murder when he didn't meet the criteria for third degree?
Basically, 3rd degree in Minnesota was very specific, and meant firing into a crowd at random or similar (killing someone at random). If you were guilty of planning to murder X, you were innocent of 3rd degree murder, basically.

Note Chauvin didn't get a 1st degree charge though. He got some sorta manslaughter, a 3rd degree, and a 2nd degree. The 3rd degree was overturned on appeal because of the above reason.

The 2nd degree was a felony homicide (i.e. an unintentional killing while doing a felony, namely assualt).

That trial was a cluster fuck and IIRC Floyd's heart was the size of a basketball or someshit. That was a dead man walking.
And here we run into eggshell theory. Basically, if you punch Humpty Dumpty, he cracks, then dies, you killed him. It doesn't matter if he was high on heroin & Fentanyl and had a too large heart: if you give him a slight push over the edge, you are guilty.

There are ways to argue that he was dying anyway, but I'm not sure of their legal relevance basically. I wouldn't be surprised if even slightly hastening the death counted, but IANAL.
 
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Cherico

Well-known member
Yeah, the War on Drugs has militarized the police against citizens for decades - including civil forfeiture, no-knock raids, smelling something for probable cause, and so on. The War on Terror stepped that up.

Im honestly not convinced it will let the left win.

Quite simply put you have a whole lot of young men with absolutely nothing to lose, and a society that just refuses to give them any bones and the lefts leadership is quite simply put delusional. I do think they have quite a bit of insitutional power as of yet but with the way things are I don't see them holding power long term.
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
There is a law that exists in many states that is often called “felony murder.” It means that it counts as deliberate murder when somebody accidentally dies as a result of you committing a felony. In some regard, these kinds of laws make sense, because if you choose to commit a felony that puts people’s lives at risk, then someone dies, you should be responsible. On the other hand, those laws can also be exploited to charge people far more harshly than what their actions deserve.

In this case, that law was exploited to charge Chauvin with murder because of politics. It also happened in a Ahmaud Arbery case.
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
Im honestly not convinced it will let the left win.

Quite simply put you have a whole lot of young men with absolutely nothing to lose, and a society that just refuses to give them any bones and the lefts leadership is quite simply put delusional. I do think they have quite a bit of insitutional power as of yet but with the way things are I don't see them holding power long term.
I’m not convinced either, but I think it’s definitely a cause for concern. The quality of law enforcement is likely to decline in time as well as hiring and promotions become more politicized with time.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
And here we run into eggshell theory. Basically, if you punch Humpty Dumpty, he cracks, then dies, you killed him. It doesn't matter if he was high on heroin & Fentanyl and had a too large heart: if you give him a slight push over the edge, you are guilty.

There is a law that exists in many states that is often called “felony murder.” It means that it counts as deliberate murder when somebody accidentally dies as a result of you committing a felony. In some regard, these kinds of laws make sense, because if you choose to commit a felony that puts people’s lives at risk, then someone dies, you should be responsible. On the other hand, those laws can also be exploited to charge people far more harshly than what their actions deserve.

Here in the Netherlands, we literally have the famous "egg-shell skull verdict" as part of the jurisprudence that determines culpability. Basically, someone threw a shoe at someone else, and the one that got hit had a birth defect causing a very thin skull. One hit was fatal, literally cracking the skull like an egg-shell. The man who threw the shoe didn't know that.

Found not guilty of manslaughter, on the grounds that the hit wouldn't have been fatal under regular circumstances, and there was no way for him to know about the egg-shell skull. Found guilty of assault-with-deadly-consequence, which takes into account that he willingly did something that could cause serious harm regardless, but it's a much lighter sentence.

This "felony murder" thing sounds preposterous to me. (I mean: if you go around shooting a gun recklessly, and you fatally hit someone, then it might make sense. But that doesn't apply here. That Floyd guy evidently died because he was a drug fiend with severe self-inflicted health issues.)
 

Abhorsen

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This "felony murder" thing sounds preposterous to me. (I mean: if you go around shooting a gun recklessly, and you fatally hit someone, then it might make sense. But that doesn't apply here. That Floyd guy evidently died because he was a drug fiend with severe self-inflicted health issues.)
And you are correct. TBC, I wasn't endorsing the eggshell theory, just explaining it.

But Felony murder can get a ton stupider than this. Literally to the level of a getaway driver/girlfriend being guilty of murder because the cops shot and killed her robber boyfriend (not a hypothetical, that's a real case). It's very dependent on the state, and Minnesota seems to have a stupid version where the assualt itself can qualify as the felony.

The idea behind felony murder is that if you do a felony (like a robbery), and someone dies during it, it's a murder of some sort, even if the death wasn't intentional. Fair enough at first glance (on the societal level, I have moral issues with it, but it does help society function better). But you need limits even when ignoring morality and maximizing what's best for society, limits that many states seem not to have.
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
Another odd thing is that a law already exists for when your misbehavior or recklessness gets someone killed - manslaughter. Though because manslaughter laws were created more reasonably than felony murder, there are certain restrictions and thresholds for what can be considered manslaughter that don’t apply to felony murder.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
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Osaul
Another odd thing is that a law already exists for when your misbehavior or recklessness gets someone killed - manslaughter. Though because manslaughter laws were created more reasonably than felony murder, there are certain restrictions and thresholds for what can be considered manslaughter that don’t apply to felony murder.
Yeah. I'm unsure if the Minnesota statute has "cause" in their felony murder. My real issue with it is the non-requirement of a unrelated felony. Basically, they allowed the assualt to qualify as the felony for the felony murder, when the felony assault itself killed Floyd (according to the jury). Usually, those two things would need to be separate: i.e. a felony for burglary or false arrest/imprisonment, and during that felony, a person dies. This turns nearly every homicide into a felony murder. In a fist fight and the person dies? well, assaulting him was a felony, and he died, so felony murder. When, really, that's more intentional manslaughter. Fire a gun into a crowd, hit someone, and kill them? That's felony assault on the person hit, which makes this felony 2nd degree murder, when that's literally the textbook case of Minnesota 3rd degree murder.

Legally, I think the correct decision was reached, but I think the law here is stupid. It contracts all the varying shades of homicide into a single group.

For a very clear example, look at the Arbery Case. They got 3 1st degree murders: One was a straight up malice murder. The next two were Felony murders, one for aggravated assault from the shotgun blast that killed Arbery, the second for the felony (attempted) false imprisonment. Of the two Felony murders, only the second should have counted IMO.
 

DarthOne

☦️
Tou Thao gets 57-month sentence on state charge for his role in George Floyd's killing


MINNEAPOLIS -- Tou Thao, the last former Minneapolis police officer convicted in state court for his role in the killing of George Floyd, was sentenced Monday to four years and nine months - even as he denied wrongdoing.

Thao had testified he merely served as a "human traffic cone" when he held back concerned bystanders who gathered as former Officer Derek Chauvin, who is white, knelt on Floyd's neck for 9 1/2 minutes while the Black man pleaded for his life on May 25, 2020.

A bystander video captured Floyd's fading cries of "I can't breathe."

At the sentencing hearing, Thao spent 20 minutes telling the court about rediscovering Christianity during his 340 days behind bars. He said he was "distressed" by Floyd's death, but denied any role in it.

"I did not commit these crimes," Thao said. "My conscience is clear. I will not be a Judas nor join a mob in self-preservation or betray my God."

Judge Peter Cahill was not impressed.

"After three years of reflection, I was hoping for a little more remorse, regret, acknowledgment of some responsibility, and less preaching," Cahill said.

He sentenced Thao to 57 months in prison -- nearly five years -- even more than the prosecutors asked for.

"I think your culpability is less than Mr. Chauvin, but well above Mr. Kueng and Mr. Lane as an experienced, senior officer who was in the best position to save George Floyd," Cahill said.

Thao's attorney, Robert Paule, said afterward that they will appeal. He declined further comment.

Assistant Attorney General Erin Eldridge said during the hearing that Floyd's final words "reverberated across the globe."

Floyd, she said, "narrated his own death over the course of a restraint that lasted more than nine long minutes until he lost consciousness, stopped breathing and his heart stopped beating."

Thao, she said, "stood by and allowed it to happen" and stopped others from moving in to help the dying man.

"He knew better, and he was trained to do better," Eldridge said.

Floyd's family was not in the courtroom to hear this final sentencing.

"After three years, it's understandable if the family now would like to mourn in private," Eldridge said.

Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison also released a statement.

"I respect the sentence Judge Cahill imposed today," Ellison said. "Even though I am disappointed Thao expressed no remorse today and accepted no responsibility for his actions, his sentence is one more measure of accountability for the Floyd family and every community that suffered from Floyd's murder. It shows once again that no one is above the law and no one is beneath it."
Floyd's killing touched off protests worldwide and forced a national reckoning of police brutality and racism.

Hennepin County Judge Peter Cahill found Thao guilty in May of aiding and abetting second-degree manslaughter. In his 177-page ruling, Cahill said Thao's actions separated Chauvin and two other former officers from the crowd, including a an emergency medical technician, allowing his colleagues to continue restraining Floyd and preventing bystanders from providing medical aid.

"There is proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Thao's actions were objectively unreasonable from the perspective of a reasonable police officer, when viewed under the totality of the circumstances," Cahill wrote.

He concluded: "Thao's actions were even more unreasonable in light of the fact that he was under a duty to intervene to stop the other officers' excessive use of force and was trained to render medical aid."

Thao rejected a plea bargain on the state charge, saying "it would be lying" to plead guilty when he didn't think he was in the wrong. He instead agreed to let Cahill decide the case based on evidence from Chauvin's 2021 murder trial and the federal civil rights trial in 2022 of Thao and former Officers Thomas Lane and J. Alexander.

That trial in federal court ended in convictions for all three. Chauvin pleaded guilty to federal civil rights charges instead of going to trial a second time, while Lane and Kueng pleaded guilty to state charges of aiding and abetting manslaughter.

The sentence Cahill handed down Monday will run concurrently with Thao's 3 1/2-year sentence on his separate conviction on a federal civil rights charge, which an appeals court upheld on Friday. His state sentence was more than the 4 years recommended under Minnesota state guidelines.

The sentence will be served at federal prison with credit for time served before Thao is transferred to a Minnesota prison to serve out the remainder.

Lane and Kueng received 3 and 3 1/2-year state sentences respectively, which they are serving concurrently with their federal sentences of 2 1/2 years and 3 years. Thao is Hmong American, while Kueng is Black and Lane is white.

Minnesota inmates generally serve two-thirds of their sentences in prison and one-third on parole. There is no parole in the federal system but inmates can shave time off their sentences with good behavior.

Democrats are still lynching people. This man is innocent but they don't care.
 

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