Confederate Flags banned in the Military

[Sailor.X]

On the subject at hand in regards to the US Army and the DOD as a whole. They can choose what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in their ranks. If the DOD wanted to ban Pokemon cards. They could do it and the rank and file would have to say yes sir. The old saying goes We protect Democracy not practice it.

 

[Curved_Sw0rd]

On the subject at hand in regards to the US Army and the DOD as a whole. They can choose what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in their ranks. If the DOD wanted to ban Pokemon cards. They could do it and the rank and file would have to say yes sir. The old saying goes We protect Democracy not practice it.

Oh, I'm more than fine with the DOD doing as it wishes. It's the wider argument I'm annoyed about.

 

[Husky_Khan]

. But a fringe of the GOP does comprise of white supremacists, white ethnonationalist, and those who cling to the Lost Cause mythology of the ACW and South out of foolish, stubborn pride and as a knee jerk against the left.

No one is talking of Lost Cause mythology. No one has defended the Confederacy in tens of pages. All you're doing is strawmanning the people who dare disagree with you.

The fringe of the GOP is almost half of the American people and three quarters of the Republicans.

Almost Half of Voters Favor Keeping Confederate Names for Military Bases

As President Donald Trump and some Senate Republicans work to kill an effort aimed at stripping the names of Confederate leaders from U.S. military bases, a new Morning Consult/Politico poll shows voters tend to agree with them.

morningconsult.com

Majority say Confederate statues should remain: poll

A majority of voters said they believe statues of Confederate figures should remain standing despite nationwide calls to remove them from public spaces, according to a new Harvard CAPS/Harris poll …

thehill.com

Poll: Majority of Americans oppose changing military bases named after Confederate leaders

A majority of Americans oppose changing the names of military bases named after Confederate military leaders, according to a new ABC News-Ipsos poll released Friday. Fifty-six percent of Ameri…

thehill.com

Majority back removing Confederate statues, but voters split on renaming bases: poll

A majority of voters support removing Confederate statues from public spaces around the country, according to a new national poll.

www.foxnews.com

Bacle and the mainstream media and Leftists are all in agreement in trying to make sure half of the country believes they are fringe racists for valuing their heritage. And the GOP lawmakers on this issue are craven enough to care more about what the media thinks then their own constituents, half of the country.

 

[Curved_Sw0rd]

Because the Lost Cause mythology and the revisionist history it paints of the ACW, have done a lot of damage to our nation (Jim Crow Laws, the Klan, etc). Racist asshats who believed that shit are the ones who killed Lincoln and MLK, because they fought against the Confederacy/segregation.

People can still have the symbols in private, but do not expect Confederate symbols and monuments to be protected or valued outside of museums. They are symbols of slavery, treason, and segregation; no amount of time will change what those symbols stand for.

None of that changes the fact that the 1st Amendment exists, Bacle. Hateful, damaging symbols are covered under it. You don't have to like it, I certainly don't. But Freedom of Speech is more important than any of us.

 

[Curved_Sw0rd]

Yes, the 1st protects Confederate symbols from the gov punishing civies for displaying them.

It says nothing about protecting privately funded monuments from being removed or private places banning display of those symbols.

I'm well aware that private entities can do as they wish.

That doesn't make it right.

 

[LordsFire]

Because the Lost Cause mythology and the revisionist history it paints of the ACW, have done a lot of damage to our nation (Jim Crow Laws, the Klan, etc). Racist asshats who believed that shit are the ones who killed Lincoln and MLK, because they fought against the Confederacy/segregation.

No, the KKK and Jim Crow laws existed (and in the case of the KKK still barely exists) because the Democrat Party created them. The Democrat Party was the political power behind these things for a hundred years.

Answer me this; are you going to advocate the removal of Democrat Party symbology from public places, and the abolition of the Democrat Party for its racism?

 

[Husky_Khan]

'Heritage' doesn't make displaying American symbols any less racist either.

Whatever anyone's reason for the having the [American] flag, whether it's 'fuck the libs' or 'muh heritage' or 'it looks cool', none of that changes what it represents.

There, now you are woke.

 

[Bacle]

No, the KKK and Jim Crow laws existed (and in the case of the KKK still barely exists) because the Democrat Party created them. The Democrat Party was the political power behind these things for a hundred years.

Answer me this; are you going to advocate the removal of Democrat Party symbology from public places, and the abolition of the Democrat Party for its racism?

Actually, if someone already introduced a house bill for banning the Dem party for being the party of slavery, from what I've seen on Twitter.

Not likely to go anywhere, but I'd celebrate if it passed. I hate the what the Dem party has done and become, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be silent about problems on the right either.

You seem to think that because I dare take a stand against Confederate symbology, and the Lost Cause mythology, that I must be on the Dems side. Which is stupid and completely ignores all the times I've called out the Dems or that I straight up left the Dems despite that being most of my family and friends.

I lost a lot of friends because I came out for Trump, have likely hurt my employability prospects publocly supporting him on FB in my area, and have to fight real Leftist lies on there all the time.

But no, because I am not down with playing nice on the Confederate issue, I'm just another 'Leftist' to you all.

 

[Curved_Sw0rd]

Actually, if someone already introduced a house bill for banning the Dem party for being the party of slavery, from what I've seen on Twitter.

Not likely to go anywhere, but I'd celebrate if it passed. I hate the what the Dem party has done and become, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be silent about problems on the right either.

You seem to think that because I dare take a stand against Confederate symbology, and the Lost Cause mythology, that I must be on the Dems side. Which is stupid and completely ignores all the times I've called out the Dems or that I straight up left the Dems despite that being most of my family and friends.

I lost a lot of friends because I came out for Trump, have likely hurt my employability prospects publocly supporting him on FB in my area, and have to fight real Leftist lies on there all the time.

But no, because I am not down with playing nice on the Confederate issue, I'm just another 'Leftist' to you all.

The reason it annoys people on the Right is because we've already seen how censorship progresses. Take Alex Jones for example. Silicon Valley started with him, to cripple arguments against censorship by censoring someone hated. Now tech censorship is already rampant, there is very little safety outside alt-tech, which gets smeared as a nazi haven. Fuck, we're smeared as a nazi haven.

This shit is how it starts. Hell, we already have indiscriminate attacks on other statues and symbols. It does not, nor will it ever, begin and end with the Confederacy. Put your feelings on the flag aside for two minutes and look at the pattern.

 

[Husky_Khan]

But no, because I am not down with playing nice on the Confederate issue, I'm just another 'Leftist' to you all.

It is weird how people label you a leftist when you call everyone who disagrees with you racists, Dixiecrats, far right, fringe right, Lost Cause apologists, Neo-Confederates and comparing us to comfort women apologists. And ya know, advocating abandoning Christian dogma after comparing Christianity to Communism in methodology and body count in a thread about Catholic churches being burned down in France.

Glad you wanna build the wall tho. That's a real Centrist policy with a far larger fraction of support that can't be construed as racist..

 

[Bacle]

The reason it annoys people on the Right is because we've already seen how censorship progresses. Take Alex Jones for example. Silicon Valley started with him, to cripple arguments against censorship by censoring someone hated. Now tech censorship is already rampant, there is very little safety outside alt-tech, which gets smeared as a nazi haven. Fuck, we're smeared as a nazi haven.

This shit is how it starts. Hell, we already have indiscriminate attacks on other statues and symbols. It does not, nor will it ever, begin and end with the Confederacy. Put your feelings on the flag aside for two minutes and look at the pattern.

I see the unjustified attacks on other monuments, and condemn them.

But I'm not going to pretend to be upset at Confederate symbology and Lost Cause mythology being chased out of the public sphere.

 

[Curved_Sw0rd]

I see the unjustified attacks on other monuments, and condemn them.

But I'm not going to pretend to be upset at Confederate symbology and Lost Cause mythology being chased out of the public sphere.

My point is we should not allow it to start up, even if means defending something one finds horrible. Are you willing to do that?

 

[Bacle]

My point is we should not allow it to start up, even if means defending something one finds horrible. Are you willing to do that?

It already has started, before we even knew it happened.

Genie is out of the bottle; best we can do is try to limit and direct the damage.

Using Confederate symbology as a sacrifical anode, akin to what they use to prevent/delay rust on ships, can save a lot of vastly more important things. As well, many Confederate monuments were put up by private groups, not the government, and many of those groups were related to the clan and their clandestine (or not so clandestine) Dem backers.

We might be able to remedy it if we have another Constitutional Convention, but I'm not sure anything less could root out the issue and reset the board.

 

[LordsFire]

You seem to think that because I dare take a stand against Confederate symbology, and the Lost Cause mythology, that I must be on the Dems side. Which is stupid and completely ignores all the times I've called out the Dems or that I straight up left the Dems despite that being most of my family and friends.

I lost a lot of friends because I came out for Trump, have likely hurt my employability prospects publocly supporting him on FB in my area, and have to fight real Leftist lies on there all the time.

But no, because I am not down with playing nice on the Confederate issue, I'm just another 'Leftist' to you all.

I'm glad that you are at least consistent in this regard. It doesn't change the fact that the school of thought you are subscribing to, is fundamentally wrong.

Is removing these flags and monuments going to change the mind of the people who actually support them? Not likely.

Is it going to make them feel like an oppressed and marginalized minority? Likely.

Is removing these symbols going to change history? No.

Is having them out in the open going to make it easier to identify who subscribes to those kinds of ideology? Yes.


Now, when it specifically come to the matter of monuments to unrepentant Confederates on publicly owned land, I favor the idea of having votes held in those local communities about what to do with those monuments. For anything with even a smidgen more complexity to it than that...

I favor actually talking to people about the issue, what they think about history, and why.

Using Confederate symbology as a sacrifical anode, akin to what they use to prevent/delay rust on ships, can save a lot of vastly more important things. As well, many Confederate monuments were put up by private groups, not the government, and many of those groups were related to the clan and their clandestine (or not so clandestine) Dem backers.

And this is where you're wrong, and why those of us who've been in the culture war against the political left for much longer don't consider your advice to be worth anything.

The left is never satisfied, they never stop, they will jump on any significant sign of weakness, and they will never stop lying.

Conceding ground makes you look guilty. Standing your ground, calling out the lies, and explaining that you will support people's free speech even when it comes to things you disagree with, that shows that your principles damn well mean something.

You might as well start trying to convince the moderates that the Dems are lying now, rather than after you've conceded this and however many more things to them.

 

[Abhorsen]

@Bacle, I think the big issue is that you are arguing morality, they are arguing tactics. It's a fair point to say that removing statues just encourages the Left to go crazier. You are basically talking past people.

But @LordsFire, let's pretend the Left wouldn't be encouraged or discouraged by the removal of the statues. Would you support removing them?

 

[Cherico]

It already has started, before we even knew it happened.

Genie is out of the bottle; best we can do is try to limit and direct the damage.

Using Confederate symbology as a sacrifical anode, akin to what they use to prevent/delay rust on ships, can save a lot of vastly more important things. As well, many Confederate monuments were put up by private groups, not the government, and many of those groups were related to the clan and their clandestine (or not so clandestine) Dem backers.

We might be able to remedy it if we have another Constitutional Convention, but I'm not sure anything less could root out the issue and reset the board.

what I don't think you get and what the rest of us are trying to explain to you is this.

The people we are bitching about fundamentally do not share your value system. At all, their goal is a fundamental leveling of the economy, culture and history and human nature itself in yet another vainglorious attempt at creating a utopia on earth. Every thing they do is in service to this goal.

They fundamentally do not value freedom or stability and in fact distain both. You can not compromise with them, you can not reason with them because they are fantatics who are convinced their in a holy crusade and that you are fundamentally evil for disagreeing with them. They will not only murder you and every one you love and care about but they will do so gleefully and sleep soundly after torturing you slowly to death.

These are not normal political times, this is a survival situation. We can not afford to give any ground because that will end with all of us dead or in a gulage.

 

[Husky_Khan]

It already has started, before we even knew it happened.

Actually the warning sounds were barked about many years ago, it's just no one except Trump and actual Conservatives cared. Like even taking the most recent example back in Charlottesville in 2017 when there was that controversy with the Robert E Lee statue that went up in the 1890's and Trump flat out stated that they'd be coming for Jefferson and Washington too and literally everyone that wasn't an R was mocking him for it (and many so-called R's as well were).

Now because of Conservative general inaction on the issue, it's literally all on the table for removal. It's like what was said in the earlier half dozen pages of this thread and prior ones. Even if people like you believe half of Americans are racist fringe Dixiecrats who love these Confederate statues so good riddance to those bible thumpers, it wasn't going to end there. Like I posted over a month ago, these issues have been happening for years and Trump helped shed a light on the slippery slope two years ago but it's still continued.

Democrats dump Jefferson, Jackson names from dinners

A signature of Democratic politics that is as iconic as donkeys and blue banners may be headed toward retirement as the state party renames its signature fundraising dinner to avoid

www.tribstar.com

City Pages

www.citypages.com

CNN analyst: tear down George Washington and Thomas Jefferson statues

CNN commentator Angela Rye has called for all statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson to be taken down because the men they enshrine were slave owners, she said.

www.dailymail.co.uk

George Washington’s Virginia church taking down his memorial

A church attended by George Washington will take down a memorial to the nation’s first president, a move church leaders say is intended to make the place of worship more welcoming.T…

thehill.com

Minnesota DNR can rename Lake Calhoun as Bde Maka Ska, high court rules

Ruling by state Supreme Court caps a longstanding dispute over the name of the lake.

www.startribune.com

Thomas Jefferson statue will be moved following calls to remove racist symbols from public spaces – Decaturish - Locally sourced news

Share This story has been updated. Decatur, GA — The organizer behind a June 17 rally on the Decatur Square says a statue of Thomas Jefferson in downtown Decatur will be removed. The Beacon Hill Black Alliance for Human Rights organized the protest, calling for the immediate removal of the...

decaturish.com

Philadelphia announces plans to remove Columbus statue after repeated violence at Marconi Plaza

The move comes a day after statue supporters brawled with protesters at the statue.

www.inquirer.com

Columbus, Ohio, to remove Christopher Columbus statue

The mayor of Columbus, Ohio, announced Thursday the city plans to remove the Christopher Columbus statue that stands in front of city hall in favor of “diversity and inclusion.”

www.foxnews.com

Camden to rename Woodrow Wilson High School, citing the former president’s segregationist legacy

"Our students will walk into a new building not tied to a building with a racist legacy,” the superintendent said Friday.

www.inquirer.com

At least 4 San Francisco schools may be renamed amid BLM push

The San Francisco Unified School District is moving toward renaming some schools in the...

www.sfgate.com

There's no reason to assume that people will be appeased with just the Confederate Statues, or slaveowning ones, or conquistadors, or founding fathers or anyone White before 1950. They were taking John C. Calhouns and Patrick Henry's name off of stuff years ago. You can google that stuff back on the other forum if you want. There was plenty of warning, it's just no one but the Leftists cared about tearing them down and no one but those directly affected and Conservative activists noticed it.

 

[LordsFire]

@Bacle, I think the big issue is that you are arguing morality, they are arguing tactics. It's a fair point to say that removing statues just encourages the Left to go crazier. You are basically talking past people.

But @LordsFire, let's pretend the Left wouldn't be encouraged or discouraged by the removal of the statues. Would you support removing them?

If we were dealing with sane political opposition, I'd say each local community should have a plebiscite about statues/monuments on public land. If I was in a community with one of those statues (I've never lived south of the Great Lakes in my adult life, so I'm not), I'd look into the history of the individual or organization the monument was about, and make my decision based on that research.

This is basically taking statues down by similar means to how they're put up. Even if I think a given statue should stay up, if the vote is to take it down, it goes down. The battle to be fought at that point is convincing people why it shouldn't be taken down, not trying to keep it up in spite of having lost the argument in the public discourse.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

There is no way to separate the Confederate flag from it's origin, and it is not some hijacked symbol like what the Nazi's did with Norse/Indian symbols.

So by that standard white guilt is real as we are living symbols of atrocities and they can't be washed away?

 

[Abhorsen]

So by that standard white guilt is real as we are living symbols of atrocities and they can't be washed away?

No. that would be, at absolute, mindboggling stupid worst, a hijacked symbol. A white person is no more inherently evil (or good) than a black person.

But the confederacy is an inherently awful country, founded on slavery. Just like the USSR is an inherently awful country, also founded on slavery (and a bunch of other bad things). This means that the symbols invented for the confederacy, just like the symbols invented for the USSR, are inherently symbols of evil. In contrast, the swastika was basically a stolen symbol, so when you see it on an old Buddhist monument, that's not a reason to tear it down. But on the other hand, with the battle flag of the confederacy, there's a damn good reason to take stuff marked with that down, because of it's awful legacy. The only argument I see for keeping it generally is tactical, because people are scared of giving an inch to the leftist mobs. I disagree with this tactic, but I see the logic of it. Personally, I think it's easier to establish a principle of why you have statues, (to honor something great the person did for humanity or the country, for example). All the confederate statues of them being confederates (Some of the Pike statues might survive) would then be removed, but Columbus and Jefferson statues would stay.