Confederate Flags banned in the Military

[Zachowon]

Was the M3 named after Robert Lee or his father General 'Light Horse' Lee who fought in the American Revolution?

Robert E Lee

 

[PsihoKekec]

The Republican Party has clearly betrayed its constituents.

Not the first time, nor the last.

 

[Deleted member 88]

“Big tent”

You mean submitting to BLM and the left in return for a favorable editorial today.

It is the south that has given the Republican Party it’s support in resources, votes and loyalty for nearly fifty years.

It clearly has been unreciprocated.

But whatever, enjoy your Dem lite party. That tries to out left the left and pathetically fails while the Dems secure their one party rule.

 

[Zachowon]

The name of these bases were the only way they were going to be allowed in the south when they were built/named. For instance Benning. So I mean, there is somewhat of a good reason for it, I hate to say.

 

[Deleted member 88]

The name of these bases were the only way they were going to be allowed in the south when they were built/named. For instance Benning. So I mean, there is somewhat of a good reason for it, I hate to say.

Zachowon, I like you dude, but your constant knee jerk defense of the military merely because its your career is tiresome.

 

[Husky_Khan]

The GOP answers to a Big Tent now, not just the far-right or left-over Dixiecrats that migrated in.

This was always a battle that Confed defenders were going to lose. Find a different way of defining Southern identity, because the rest of us are done giving traitors undue honor.

So I googled polling on Confederate basing names and this was a top result and sure enough...

Almost Half of Voters Favor Keeping Confederate Names for Military Bases

As President Donald Trump and some Senate Republicans work to kill an effort aimed at stripping the names of Confederate leaders from U.S. military bases, a new Morning Consult/Politico poll shows voters tend to agree with them.

morningconsult.com

Looks like 74% of Republicans and 48% of people in general want to keep the names. Only a leftist third want them changed.

This is basically the same polling data on Lees statue back since 2017.

Some folks will say this is for Big Tent politics. They'll lie to you and say we have to sacrifice and take for granted Republican voters, our culture, our religion and our history because regardless of our GOP leadership we're still beholden to them. He'll say that his pet issues like the Wall and no Gun Control are way more popular then fifty perxent of America.

And when you still disagree they'll do two more things. They'll call you Neo-Confederates and compare you Comfort Women deniers and make Appeals to Authority in lieu of arguments. Oh... Well sure half of America disagrees but Republican leadership agrees with me.

Appeals to Authority that run contrary to the will of the people just smack of the very Authoritarianism and elitism that got us here in the first place. These craven politicians are dedicated to sacrificing our history and heritage so they can look better on CNN and Twitter. Trump of course isn't and doesn't give a fuck but the rest of the GOP is far more interested in looking good to the MSM and leftists who will never be pleased with them anyways because they have R's behind their name. And we have a legion of so-called "Centrists" who are more then willing to throw away any nuanced view of our history, heritage and culture so we can attract that elusive leftist 33% that vote to destroy our heritage.

 

[Husky_Khan]

The name of these bases were the only way they were going to be allowed in the south when they were built/named. For instance Benning. So I mean, there is somewhat of a good reason for it, I hate to say.

Most of the locals in the South don't want it changed though. There was an effort to add a provision to the provision that local states and communities could decide on the renaming themselves but Senator Pocahontas in New England felt it best the Federal government decide things for local communities then the communities themselves. Can't have those Southrons have too much of a voice after all.

 

[Husky_Khan]

All I see is a bunch of stubborn fools who do not get that American society, and the GOP, have evolved beyond them. It's funny that Dixiecrats/Confed defenders think the GOP owes them, when in reality they need the GOP to have any power or relevancy at all.

Now the GOP has realized that defending the Confederacy is a rather good way to lose the centrist votes they badly need in battleground states. As well, they have realized how inappropriate it is to honor Confed leadership while saying they love America and are fighting for minority groups.

Adapt or die is still true for the Right, and those in power get this. Trump brought in the center, and the GOP now aims to increase the share of the center they attract. The center will grow as time goes by, Confed defenders/Dixiecrats will dwindle, and the GOP will be able to slowly rid themselves of some of their most toxic elements.

Again practically half of Americans are actually in agreement with the most toxic elements of the GOP including President Trump. So calling 48% of Americans stubborn fools and Dixiecrats and neo-Confederates... I mean go ahead.

It's actually the inverse of your Border Wall policy you endorse where 37% support and 60% oppose. So again your proposals of this being a big tent or argument ad populum seems to be a falsehood. Just be honest and stop dressing your own exclusionary opinions as somehow being mainstream

Your holier then thou principles aren't anymore holy then the will of the people who disagree with you. They're actually less holy because unlike you most of us don't equivocate Christian dogma with Communism. 😇

 

[Husky_Khan]

First, I trust that poll about as much as the suppression polls CNN puts out.

So what your saying is the same media that's allegedly suppressing right wing numbers in some poll is also inflating those numbers in others polls?

Is there any pollsters you'll trust over your convenient issue based unsubstantiated negative evidence objections?

 

[Husky_Khan]

That is entirely possible, given that the MSM and friends have a lot to gain by painting a lot of the GOP as supporting or preserving Confed heritage.

Doing so makes it easier to scare away centrists/moderates who have issues with the way some people in the GOP had effectively venerated Confed figures and leadership in order to appease Dixiecrats.

Interesting. I thought you'd say that. You might've missed it but I also asked...

Is there any pollsters you'll trust over your convenient issue based unsubstantiated negative evidence objections?

Do you feel Politico/Morning Consult to have that same bias as CNN and others presumably?

Furthermore there are a lot of polls on the issue of race relations and heritage. If I was to provide a sampling id be curious if you could tell me whether they are accurate or biased and in which way.

 

[LordsFire]

That is entirely possible, given that the MSM and friends have a lot to gain by painting a lot of the GOP as supporting or preserving Confed heritage.

Doing so makes it easier to scare away centrists/moderates who have issues with the way some people in the GOP had effectively venerated Confed figures and leadership in order to appease Dixiecrats.

You still believe the lie that the Dixiecrats were something the Republicans brought on board?

Still?

Let me spell it out for you simply:

The 'Big Switch' of the southern racists shifting en masse to the Republican Party is a lie.

Two total of the Dixiecrats switched to the Republican Party, and had no observable impact on the Republican's standard anti-racism, anti-segregation policies.

The rest of the Dixiecrats stayed with the Democrat Party. Robert Byrd was still in the Senate after 2000.


If you want your arguments and 'advice' to be taken seriously, become conversant with basic historical facts.

 

[Sailor.X]

If they want to have Southern Pride then have a symbol of their State instead. I know I have a ballcap with a Palmetto Flag on it.

 

[LordsFire]

Oh, yes, only 'two' Dixiecrats reps changed sides, along with a lot of non-rep Dixiecrats base.

Or do you think I'm blind to how people who are part of the GOP base in the south love to bring Confederate symbols and such to NASCAR events and put so much 'pride' I'm a symbol of slavery and insurrection.

You insist it's a lie, because admitting it has more truth would mean admitting the Dems do not lie about everything and that the GOP has its own internal fringe to reckon with.

No, I insist it is a lie, because it is a lie. Because it's the Democrats propaganda campaign to try to divorce themselves from their own racist past.

Are there some people who vote Republican in the South who have a sort of romanticism for the Confederacy? Sure. Is that somewhat disturbing? Sure. Would I try to explain to them why romanticizing the confederacy is a bad idea if I had a discussion of such matters with them? Absolutely.

Does this romanticism have any impact whatsoever on the continued hardline Republican anti-racism stance?

No. None at all.

The Democrats, conversely, have started advocating for segregation again. Their policy platform explicitly and repeatedly is about race, racial division, and actively and aggressively seeks to stoke up racial tensions. Democrat leadership (as differentiated from the voters) is racist, advocates racist policies, and as best I've been able to see, never stopped being racist.

The Democrats will never stop telling lies about Republicans to smear them. Acting like the charge is made in good faith is counter-productive. Republicans have been trying to prove they're not racists since the Democrats moved away from being open racists in the 70's/80's, and the lies never stop.

Instead of kowtowing to liars, the more effective strategy is to tell the truth.


Your 'advice' is worse than useless, it's outright counter-productive. When you're willing to engage about the truth rather than about the latest pack of lies the Democrats are throwing out, maybe you'll be able to contribute something useful.

Because as Reagan proved, the best way to sway the moderates and undecided, is to tell them the truth. When they see past the lies, they vote Republican rather than Democrat. Because the Republicans aren't perfect, but the Democrat Party is a cesspit that probably hasn't acted in good faith on the national level since shortly after JFK died, and only rarely did before then.

 

[Bacle]

No, I insist it is a lie, because it is a lie. Because it's the Democrats propaganda campaign to try to divorce themselves from their own racist past.

Are there some people who vote Republican in the South who have a sort of romanticism for the Confederacy? Sure. Is that somewhat disturbing? Sure. Would I try to explain to them why romanticizing the confederacy is a bad idea if I had a discussion of such matters with them? Absolutely.

Does this romanticism have any impact whatsoever on the continued hardline Republican anti-racism stance?

No. None at all.

The Democrats, conversely, have started advocating for segregation again. Their policy platform explicitly and repeatedly is about race, racial division, and actively and aggressively seeks to stoke up racial tensions. Democrat leadership (as differentiated from the voters) is racist, advocates racist policies, and as best I've been able to see, never stopped being racist.

The Democrats will never stop telling lies about Republicans to smear them. Acting like the charge is made in good faith is counter-productive. Republicans have been trying to prove they're not racists since the Democrats moved away from being open racists in the 70's/80's, and the lies never stop.

Instead of kowtowing to liars, the more effective strategy is to tell the truth.


Your 'advice' is worse than useless, it's outright counter-productive. When you're willing to engage about the truth rather than about the latest pack of lies the Democrats are throwing out, maybe you'll be able to contribute something useful.

Because as Reagan proved, the best way to sway the moderates and undecided, is to tell them the truth. When they see past the lies, they vote Republican rather than Democrat. Because the Republicans aren't perfect, but the Democrat Party is a cesspit that probably hasn't acted in good faith on the national level since shortly after JFK died, and only rarely did before then.

Here's the thing, more than one thing can be true at the same time.

Democrats having never really left thier racist roots, the GOP looking away and ignoring the Dixiecrats in thier own ranks, and both sides smearing the other using partisan smear jobs can all be true at once.

I am not giving either side a free pass.

 

[LordsFire]

Here's the thing, more than one thing can be true at the same time.

Democrats having never really left thier racist roots, the GOP looking away and ignoring the Dixiecrats in thier own ranks, and both sides smearing the other using partisan smear jobs can all be true at once.

I am not giving either side a free pass.

As I tell you every bloody time this argument comes up, show me the racist policies.

Until you can do that, this 'both sides' business is just BS. If a racist wants to vote for a non-racist, that's a good thing. If you can't actually back your criticism up with facts, your advice is useless.

 

[Bacle]

As I tell you every bloody time this argument comes up, show me the racist policies.

Until you can do that, this 'both sides' business is just BS. If a racist wants to vote for a non-racist, that's a good thing. If you can't actually back your criticism up with facts, your advice is useless.

And you keep conflating me pointing out a problem with racists in the base with me calling the national GOP platform racist.

You keep actings as if a party has to have openly racist policy to have issues with racists in it's base.

The reason there is a veto-proof majority on this issue is because a lot of people in the GOP don't want to be associated with the Confederacy or waste energy defending it's symbols/history. But a fringe of the GOP does comprise of white supremacists, white ethnonationalist, and those who cling to the Lost Cause mythology of the ACW and South out of foolish, stubborn pride and as a knee jerk against the left.

I'm trying to give helpful advice, but you all just shift the goalposts when I say things you don't want to hear and tell you which battles are worth the energy to fight.

 

[LordsFire]

And you keep conflating me pointing out a problem with racists in the base with me calling the national GOP platform racist.

You keep actings as if a party has to have openly racist policy to have issues with racists in it's base.

The reason there is a veto-proof majority on this issue is because a lot of people in the GOP don't want to be associated with the Confederacy or waste energy defending it's symbols/history. But a fringe of the GOP does comprise of white supremacists, white ethnonationalist, and those who cling to the Lost Cause mythology of the ACW and South out of foolish, stubborn pride and as a knee jerk against the left.

I'm trying to give helpful advice, but you all just shift the goalposts when I say things you don't want to hear and tell you which battles are worth the energy to fight.

The Republican party has made it abundantly clear, again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again-

Racism is not acceptable within the Republican Party.

Reagan wouldn't have anything to do with it. Neither Bush would have anything to do with it. Trump won't have anything to do with it. Nixon was the last presidential-tier leader who had anything to do with it, and even then the party's values forced him to keep that more or less private. He was still probably one of the worst Republican presidents ever.

There is no acceptance of racism in the Republican party as a whole, and racism is not permitted to be part of the policies that it pushes. This has been and continues to be the policy of the Republican Party.

If, even though this has been made abundantly clear, racists still want to vote for Republican candidates? Good. Who would you rather have them vote for?

Given its policies and values on racism have been made abundantly clear, it is not the Republican Party's fault if people who do not share those values vote for them.

I am sick of your guilt by involuntary association crap.

Because let's be clear, that's what this is. This isn't 'you are actively seeking to spend time with and court racists,' like what the Democrats do. It isn't even 'you go hang out where you know mostly racists hang out.' This is 'racists are voting for you even though you aren't a racist.' (Given the Democrat Party is now openly anti-white racist, it's hardly surprising white anybody wants to vote for the avowed anti-racism party.) You are blaming the Republican Party for things it literally cannot control.

And I am sick of it.


(And yes. Because in any sufficiently large system you'll find a few racists present, there are some secret outright racists within the Republican Party as well. I have yet to hear a case of such a person not being forced to recant or leave the party when they're found out.)

 

[Curved_Sw0rd]

@Bacle the Confederate flag has multiple meanings to multiple groups. Why should those who have a connection to the South, or those who favor rebelliousness, have to suffer because of something they themselves did not do? What the didn't do being flying it for racist reasons.

You have a Right to Freedom of Speech, for that there can be no Right Not To Be Offended.

 

[Bacle]

The Republican party has made it abundantly clear, again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again-

Racism is not acceptable within the Republican Party.

Reagan wouldn't have anything to do with it. Neither Bush would have anything to do with it. Trump won't have anything to do with it. Nixon was the last presidential-tier leader who had anything to do with it, and even then the party's values forced him to keep that more or less private. He was still probably one of the worst Republican presidents ever.

There is no acceptance of racism in the Republican party as a whole, and racism is not permitted to be part of the policies that it pushes. This has been and continues to be the policy of the Republican Party.

If, even though this has been made abundantly clear, racists still want to vote for Republican candidates? Good. Who would you rather have them vote for?

Given its policies and values on racism have been made abundantly clear, it is not the Republican Party's fault if people who do not share those values vote for them.

I am sick of your guilt by involuntary association crap.

Because let's be clear, that's what this is. This isn't 'you are actively seeking to spend time with and court racists,' like what the Democrats do. It isn't even 'you go hang out where you know mostly racists hang out.' This is 'racists are voting for you even though you aren't a racist.' (Given the Democrat Party is now openly anti-white racist, it's hardly surprising white anybody wants to vote for the avowed anti-racism party.) You are blaming the Republican Party for things it literally cannot control.

And I am sick of it.


(And yes. Because in any sufficiently large system you'll find a few racists present, there are some secret outright racists within the Republican Party as well. I have yet to hear a case of such a person not being forced to recant or leave the party when they're found out.)

The GOP could have come out against Confederate symbols earlier, and made it far harder to smear the party.

Instead they dodged around the subject and ignored the issues around the Confederate flags and symbols, till society forced them to reckon with it.

It took Dylan Roof shooting up a church, and Nikki Haley havig a enough of a spine to fight back against the Lost Cause mythology/Southern Heritage faction in order to remove the battleflag from the NC State House, for it to become a serious issue.

@Bacle the Confederate flag has multiple meanings to multiple groups. Why should those who have a connection to the South, or those who favor rebelliousness, have to suffer because of something they themselves did not do? What the didn't do being flying it for racist reasons.

You have a Right to Freedom of Speech, for that there can be no Right Not To Be Offended.

There is no way to separate the Confederate flag from it's origin, and it is not some hijacked symbol like what the Nazi's did with Norse/Indian symbols.

The Confederate flag still stands for slavery, racism, and segregationist ideals. No amount of 'fuck the libs' or 'Southern Heritage' feelings justify flying it outside reinactments/museums, or honoring Confed leadership with statues/memorial.

This isn't about 'Right Not To Be Offended', this is about destroying the Lost Cause mythology and romantizied view of the Confederacy.

People who defend the Confederacy and it's symbols also have no right not to be offended, remember that.

 

[Curved_Sw0rd]

There is no way to separate the Confederate flag from it's origin, and it is not some hijacked symbol like what the Nazi's did with Norse/Indian symbols.

The Confederate flag still stands for slavery, racism, and segregationist ideals. No amount of 'fuck the libs' or 'Southern Heritage' feelings justify flying it outside reinactments/museums, or honoring Confed leadership with statues/memorial.

This isn't about 'Right Not To Be Offended', this is about destroying the Lost Cause mythology and romantizied view of the Confederacy.

People who defend the Confederacy and it's symbols also have no right not to be offended, remember that.

And what's wrong with letting the Lost Causers be wrong? Or people saying "Fuck That" to all the associated baggage and wearing it for one facet only? You have every right to call them morons, but you don't have the right to take their symbols away.