The Americas Canadian mass shooter kills 16 over course of rampage; Not your average mass shooting

Thats why there seems to be this disconnect in gun debates, it isn't so much 'gun crime' as it is 'gun crime that affects people I might care about'

The appearance of sudden extremely dangerous serial killers instead of JUST a bunch of regular criminals mostly operating for profit or regular crime, is something scarier

Who is more scary? A serial killer or a dangerous organized crime member?
 
To me it depends on the Serial killer, most of them tend to employ deception and surprise as their main method of beating victims. Guns aren't that popular with the real crazy serial killers, guys like Bundy and Dahmer for instance. What makes them scary is not their armament but the fact they could be anyone. Not much you can do about that :p

I guess that's why you don't see them much in debates as opposed to random nutters and hardened crime gangs. Course you could end up like Mexico where the gangs are powerful enough to be a law unto themselves. :p

But broadly I reckon thats why you don't see serial killers in the debate much because its usually too much of a surprise to act whereas with nutters doing a mass shooting you might have a chance at fighting back if you have your own weapon.
 
One of the worst parts about the gun control debate is that it completely detracts from and blots out the true cause of these horrible shootings: Mental Health. My dad, who was a policeman as the time, told me about the Dunblane Shooting and how all the gun regulation which came after that was utterly pointless because according to pre-existing laws that maniac should have had his guns taken off him but, for one reason or another, they weren't. Bear in mind, my dad is not pro-gun. As a side note, it seems a lot of pre-existing laws are perfectly adequate to nip mass shooters in the bud, but they aren't always observed.

The people who do these shootings are not right in the head and have fallen through the cracks of our Mental Health System. So much so that if they couldn't get guns, they'll use something else. It's not so much that the tools are the problem, it's the person wielding them. A person who, I might add, is usually dosed up to the gills on anti-depressants in the case of many American school shootings.

I bet none of you yanks thought you'd hear that from the lips of an Englishman, did you?
 
Depends, I think most of you Brits have been irreversibly cucked and fallen to the sort of CNN Idealism Commercials that have Greta Thunberg in it

You would do well to get off the internet then. There is a great deal of dissatisfaction with how we're being governed, Rotherham has not been forgotten and the BBC is quietly mocked for being lefty. Our problem is that our entire political institution, education and media have been captured by the Left, who are then aided/enabled by big business who are convinced they can make a quick bit of money out of it.

Thing is, when it comes to these lone wolves, there maybe an idea that it’s only crazies who buy guns

Even if that were the case, the lunatics will still get the guns no matter how much we try to legislate the problem away.
 
You would do well to get off the internet then. There is a great deal of dissatisfaction with how we're being governed, Rotherham has not been forgotten and the BBC is quietly mocked for being lefty. Our problem is that our entire political institution, education and media have been captured by the Left, who are then aided/enabled by big business who are convinced they can make a quick bit of money out of it.



Even if that were the case, the lunatics will still get the guns no matter how much we try to legislate the problem away.

I firmly belive that when Europe snaps from all of this bullshit it will be the brits who snap first.
 
You would do well to get off the internet then. There is a great deal of dissatisfaction with how we're being governed, Rotherham has not been forgotten and the BBC is quietly mocked for being lefty. Our problem is that our entire political institution, education and media have been captured by the Left, who are then aided/enabled by big business who are convinced they can make a quick bit of money out of it.

Even if that were the case, the lunatics will still get the guns no matter how much we try to legislate the problem away.

Still, the fact they can maintain that illusion strongly with media, to me it still goes strong

How long is Sadiq Khan gonna remain mayor, I wonder

Hell, how long are they, especially the native British working class who include those in Unions, going to stand having their children be victims and eventually having themselves be replaced en masse

I firmly belive that when Europe snaps from all of this bullshit it will be the brits who snap first.

Second British Empire, when?
 
I firmly belive that when Europe snaps from all of this bullshit it will be the brits who snap first.

"There are three things all wise men fear: The sea in a storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man."

And in this case, when the patience of the gentle man is tested...the Saxon begins to hate.

Anyways, more often than not gun control is just bloody pointless.
 
Hanging around with Yanks who know their stuff educated me on this debate and I do appreciate it. I think there is a different culture which is born from a different history and geography so the UK and US will have different realities. US gun laws wouldn't be practical here, but at the same time UK or most Euro gun laws wouldn't work stateside.

So when Brits or Euros or whoever try to lecture America on its laws they need to sit down and shut up. They are ignorant and arrogant to assume what is fine for them is fine for others, gets a bit embarrassing.
Course same goes for Yanks trying to tell us how wrong we are :p

I haven't studied extensively but my guess is you guys over there still have your same system of government put in place by George Washington. It has adapted over the years but it is still fundamentally a Republic based on the rules they wrote. You haven't really needed to change it and apart from that hiccup in the 1860s things have been fairly stable.

But over here? We've had more violent revolutions, coups, civil wars, dynastic conflicts and invasions than I can easily name :p Our system of government has changed dozens of times and usually as a result of violence. We had that whole armed populace thing , indeed it was mandated by law for a couple of centuries, and in our experience it just made it easier to wage internal wars.
The last couple of internal wars we had killed a notable percentage of the population, at which point I reckon everyone got a bit sick of it.

So British culture and systems of government are an evolution from that, it was trial and error with bits added on every few decades as a result of some sort of war or uprising. This ends up making a different culture, and no not a weak one that hides from violence but one where every level understands their role and what happens when they exceed their power. The elites in America maybe haven't had the shock of the ordinary people rising against them, over here the common man beheaded a king and a bunch of his lords which helps keep some perspective. Its notable that was the last real civil war, made the point pretty well.

So it is cultural. The British don't need a written right to keep their leaders in check because we've had a thousand years of practical demonstrations. The Government has power but it doesn't have authority, it can't overrule a law or command an army, the system has checks, balances and clear separation of power built into it which doesn't really exist in other countries outside the Dominions. If it tries to exceed its authority it gets slapped down, and the same goes for the monarchy and judiciary. Perfectly balanced by distrust of each other :p
 
Hanging around with Yanks who know their stuff educated me on this debate and I do appreciate it. I think there is a different culture which is born from a different history and geography so the UK and US will have different realities. US gun laws wouldn't be practical here, but at the same time UK or most Euro gun laws wouldn't work stateside.

So when Brits or Euros or whoever try to lecture America on its laws they need to sit down and shut up. They are ignorant and arrogant to assume what is fine for them is fine for others, gets a bit embarrassing.
Course same goes for Yanks trying to tell us how wrong we are :p
Very much this. While it's told as a joke it's also a truism, the difference between the US and Europe is that Europeans think 100 kilometers is a long way and Americans think 100 years is a long time.

It gets attention as it is the one most likely to affect the average citizen. As I said most criminal gun deaths are other criminals, not to sound cruel but if a hundred teenage gang bangers get wasted in Chicago, do people in the suburbs of Milwaukee really care?

But these nut jobs, they don't target gang bangers they target the normal law abiding upright citizen. It is more likely the average decent guy will lose family to a lone wolf then to gang warfare. So naturally this is more of a concern to them and their focus is on preventing this sort of a killing.

Thats why there seems to be this disconnect in gun debates, it isn't so much 'gun crime' as it is 'gun crime that affects people I might care about'
There's also a racial element. The main proponents of gun control are liberals and a supermajority of the drug gangs are black. It can be extremely difficult for liberals to wrap their head around doing anything about said gangs because it intersects with their "must automatically support minority" platform and short circuits the entire process.
 
Yeah, I don't think its wrong to say America is unique in itself and therefore the solutions for American issues are also going to be unique. The people best placed to sort those issues are Americans themselves and preferably with minimal outside interference.
 
Hanging around with Yanks who know their stuff educated me on this debate and I do appreciate it. I think there is a different culture which is born from a different history and geography so the UK and US will have different realities. US gun laws wouldn't be practical here, but at the same time UK or most Euro gun laws wouldn't work stateside.

So when Brits or Euros or whoever try to lecture America on its laws they need to sit down and shut up. They are ignorant and arrogant to assume what is fine for them is fine for others, gets a bit embarrassing.
Course same goes for Yanks trying to tell us how wrong we are :p

I haven't studied extensively but my guess is you guys over there still have your same system of government put in place by George Washington. It has adapted over the years but it is still fundamentally a Republic based on the rules they wrote. You haven't really needed to change it and apart from that hiccup in the 1860s things have been fairly stable.

But over here? We've had more violent revolutions, coups, civil wars, dynastic conflicts and invasions than I can easily name :p Our system of government has changed dozens of times and usually as a result of violence. We had that whole armed populace thing , indeed it was mandated by law for a couple of centuries, and in our experience it just made it easier to wage internal wars.
The last couple of internal wars we had killed a notable percentage of the population, at which point I reckon everyone got a bit sick of it.

So British culture and systems of government are an evolution from that, it was trial and error with bits added on every few decades as a result of some sort of war or uprising. This ends up making a different culture, and no not a weak one that hides from violence but one where every level understands their role and what happens when they exceed their power. The elites in America maybe haven't had the shock of the ordinary people rising against them, over here the common man beheaded a king and a bunch of his lords which helps keep some perspective. Its notable that was the last real civil war, made the point pretty well.

So it is cultural. The British don't need a written right to keep their leaders in check because we've had a thousand years of practical demonstrations. The Government has power but it doesn't have authority, it can't overrule a law or command an army, the system has checks, balances and clear separation of power built into it which doesn't really exist in other countries outside the Dominions. If it tries to exceed its authority it gets slapped down, and the same goes for the monarchy and judiciary. Perfectly balanced by distrust of each other :p

A large part of the reason for those civil wars and internal issues is an unwillingness to actually write down the rules and enforce them. Well that and the fact that in the British system you don't actually have any kind of divided government.

Ever since you utterly gutted the House of Lords and the Crown, you have had a defacto unitary government in the House of Commons and it has no limits under your system on what it can or cannot do.

Having a largely unwritten system worked when you have a nobility worth the name (as opposed to a collection of life peers given their titles largely because of favors done for the Tories or Labour) that actually had economic, political, and military power.

Having the Prime Minister be an internal selection of the House of Commons largely worked when the Crown was able to remove Prime Ministers that it felt were failing their role or just didn't like.

As it is now, you have a Crown that is literally a rubber stamp and whose prerogatives are willfully ignored by the House of Commons at whim (otherwise, Queens Assent would have been needed to delay Brexit); it has no ability to exercise oversight of any kind nor any power independent of prestige.

You have a House of Lords that is a rubber stamp made up of life peers without power, without independent resource bases, without military experience, without local political power. And you have Lords Reform that is never going to happen because actually creating a reformed House of Lords that could be useful would require that the Commons cede substantial power so as to create an actual bicameral system of equals.

You have a House of Commons that is utterly dominated by political parties and whose individual members are essentially forbidden to breath without permission from the front benches.

This House of Commons then makes whomever the leader of the dominant party of MP's is the Prime Minister until internal party dynamics see them removed. The Ministers of the various Ministries are selected nigh entirely for party political reasons and to shore up the PM's support in their party, with no real concern over their ability to actually do their job and zero ability for anyone to check the PM in this. In addition, all of them serve at the pleasure of the PM and without any inherent power of their own.

And then there are the devolved parliaments.

---
Ultimately, the problems with the British system are almost entirely the fault of not actually having a designed government with popular buy in to its structure and clearly established powers and procedures for changing that structure.

It is instead the result of several hundred years of changing whims and compromises with nothing clearly established save that the House of Commons can do whatever the fuck they can get a majority of their members to agree to.

It doesn't help that you are also next to Europe and dealing with Europeans. When the US rejected British rule, it was just that; a rejection. It wasn't a coup or a revolution, it was taking a bunch of land from what was seen as a foreign power and then creating their own system from the ground up.

Virtually all of the various European changes in government have been much more moderate things. Kingdoms became Constitutional Monarchies became Parliamentary Democracies became dictatorships became restored democracies, etc. Between WW0, WW1, WW2, the collapse of the Empires, the USSR, the fall of the USSR, and the EU/Euro; Europe has spent the past hundred and fifty or so years creating and recreating its governmental structures based on the exigencies of the moment and usually without any kind of clear thought process.

In contrast, the biggest change in governmental structure the US has had was the civil war (which was, again, 150 years ago); and by European standards that was a minor tweaking of the structure; not a fundamental transformation. The next two biggest changes were the direct election of Senators and fixing the size of the House of Representatives (because they were too lazy to do their damn jobs); 1913 and 1929 respectively.

The US has had generations to build up trust in the basic structure of its government and for their to be agreement between the populace and the various branches of the government over what role each has and what its limits are (at least in the broad strokes, lots of disagreement still remains over the details).

None of the European governments have that generational trust; for most fundamental structural transformations in government are within living memory. And those fundamental structural transformations? They were achieved with or predicated on violence; often internal violence.
 
The American system is in large part inspired by the British government of the 18th century. Congress is the Commons, the Senate is the Lords, and the President is the King. It's probably why the US system has enjoyed quite a bit of stability and ours was able to avoid being wrecked by Revolution in the 19th century. However, more than a few constitutionalists would agree that the House of Commons has become too powerful a body of late, whilst the Crown and the Lords, formerly utterly necessary parts of governance, cheques and balances, can't do squat anymore. I for one am actually in favour of a return to a more 18th century style system, with a written constitution of the United Kingdom to go with it.
 
A large part of the reason for those civil wars and internal issues is an unwillingness to actually write down the rules and enforce them. Well that and the fact that in the British system you don't actually have any kind of divided government.

Ever since you utterly gutted the House of Lords and the Crown, you have had a defacto unitary government in the House of Commons and it has no limits under your system on what it can or cannot do.

Having a largely unwritten system worked when you have a nobility worth the name (as opposed to a collection of life peers given their titles largely because of favors done for the Tories or Labour) that actually had economic, political, and military power.

Having the Prime Minister be an internal selection of the House of Commons largely worked when the Crown was able to remove Prime Ministers that it felt were failing their role or just didn't like.

As it is now, you have a Crown that is literally a rubber stamp and whose prerogatives are willfully ignored by the House of Commons at whim (otherwise, Queens Assent would have been needed to delay Brexit); it has no ability to exercise oversight of any kind nor any power independent of prestige.

You have a House of Lords that is a rubber stamp made up of life peers without power, without independent resource bases, without military experience, without local political power. And you have Lords Reform that is never going to happen because actually creating a reformed House of Lords that could be useful would require that the Commons cede substantial power so as to create an actual bicameral system of equals.

You have a House of Commons that is utterly dominated by political parties and whose individual members are essentially forbidden to breath without permission from the front benches.

This House of Commons then makes whomever the leader of the dominant party of MP's is the Prime Minister until internal party dynamics see them removed. The Ministers of the various Ministries are selected nigh entirely for party political reasons and to shore up the PM's support in their party, with no real concern over their ability to actually do their job and zero ability for anyone to check the PM in this. In addition, all of them serve at the pleasure of the PM and without any inherent power of their own.

And then there are the devolved parliaments.

---
Ultimately, the problems with the British system are almost entirely the fault of not actually having a designed government with popular buy in to its structure and clearly established powers and procedures for changing that structure.

It is instead the result of several hundred years of changing whims and compromises with nothing clearly established save that the House of Commons can do whatever the fuck they can get a majority of their members to agree to.

It doesn't help that you are also next to Europe and dealing with Europeans. When the US rejected British rule, it was just that; a rejection. It wasn't a coup or a revolution, it was taking a bunch of land from what was seen as a foreign power and then creating their own system from the ground up.

Virtually all of the various European changes in government have been much more moderate things. Kingdoms became Constitutional Monarchies became Parliamentary Democracies became dictatorships became restored democracies, etc. Between WW0, WW1, WW2, the collapse of the Empires, the USSR, the fall of the USSR, and the EU/Euro; Europe has spent the past hundred and fifty or so years creating and recreating its governmental structures based on the exigencies of the moment and usually without any kind of clear thought process.

In contrast, the biggest change in governmental structure the US has had was the civil war (which was, again, 150 years ago); and by European standards that was a minor tweaking of the structure; not a fundamental transformation. The next two biggest changes were the direct election of Senators and fixing the size of the House of Representatives (because they were too lazy to do their damn jobs); 1913 and 1929 respectively.

The US has had generations to build up trust in the basic structure of its government and for their to be agreement between the populace and the various branches of the government over what role each has and what its limits are (at least in the broad strokes, lots of disagreement still remains over the details).

None of the European governments have that generational trust; for most fundamental structural transformations in government are within living memory. And those fundamental structural transformations? They were achieved with or predicated on violence; often internal violence.

That nicely describes Parliament, but do remember Parliament can't act alone. It needs to operate within the law and that law is determined by the Judiciary. There have been plenty of times when the courts have overturned policy because it turned out to be against the law, Boris and his Brexit shenanigans probably the most recent.

Of course you can change those laws, but that isn't an easy process and can always be undone by the opposition. Abuse of power is surprisingly rare so I guess something in the procedure must be working. Either that or they are great at hiding it!

EDIT-
Though while researching the old English bills of rights which are the basis for the system I was amused to see England had its own precursor to the 2nd Amendment :p But only for Protestants!
 
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