Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

[AnimalNoodles]

I think you are showing your ignorance in the topic by completely ignoring all the eastern NATO members and subscribing to Russian myths of dastardly Anglos and misguided Slavic brothers who totally want to be ruled with Moscow's glorious guidance, they just don't understand it yet.

This is getting into Dear Leader speech territory...

Look at the route of NS. If Germany tries to openly go against eastern NATO, theoretically they have a right to go "Oh, those commercial trade routes, they better not go through our territory or waters... They need to? Well then we have a problem..."

Not right now, but since decades, not because they are US vassals, but because they are retarded with green bullshit, and not US, but Russian, because Russian intelligence helped fund the green retards.

LMAO.
How many heavy jets does Russia produce? Can it beat just Airbus or Boeing in that?
You can't print airplanes...

I never claimed russia could outproduce the USA in a specific sector. I said Russia makes more total stuff than any country on your list except japan

How much steel does the UK produce?
How many tanks does Germany make per year?
What is the space launch capacity of Italy?
How many chips does Canada make?
How many shells does France manufacture?

 

[Marduk]

I never claimed russia could outproduce the USA in a specific sector. I said Russia makes more total stuff than any country on your list except japan

How much steel does the UK produce?
How many tanks does Germany make per year?
What is the space launch capacity of Italy?
How many chips does Canada make?
How many shells does France manufacture?

Cars and semiconductors, pretty major, technologically and commercially challenging goods.
But where's Russia on the list? Barely at the end of car list, after France and Spain... Even EU has some representation in semiconductors ...

 

[Husky_Khan]

Manufacturing

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

Industry

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

 

[LordsFire]

Thanks, guys.

 

[Jormungandr]

The vatniks' copium in this thread is just deliciously hilarious.

 

[Prince Ire]

Manufacturing

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

Industry

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

This appears to just be the dollar value of manufacturing, which isn't a particularly useful metric for measuring warmaking capacity. A shell that costs 19 times as much to make in one country is not necessarily 19 times better or more useful.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

Manufacturing

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

Industry

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

This is monetary value, not actual output. What is the actual production output? How many tonnes of steel for instance did the UK produce as opposed to Russia?

 

[Marduk]

This is monetary value, not actual output. What is the actual production output? How many tonnes of steel for instance did the UK produce as opposed to Russia?

Sorry, we are not falling for commienomics. Output statistically can mean utter bullshit and gets you steel combines making shit steel no one wants in a huge amount despite the fact that it's shit and one wants it, just so that a party apparatchik can boast about how much steel they are making. Hence we approximate the quality and quantity together with monetary value.

Who cares about steel production anyway? It's not fucking 1930. What are they going to do, turn all that steel into battleships and T-34's? Somehow that's a far less scary prospect than it would be in 1930's. If they want actual modern military gear, the saying is "steel is cheap, silicon is expensive". And they don't look good at all on the silicon front.

This appears to just be the dollar value of manufacturing, which isn't a particularly useful metric for measuring warmaking capacity. A shell that costs 19 times as much to make in one country is not necessarily 19 times better or more useful.

But it could be more useful, because if it's that expensive it is probably guided. You could spend a 100 shells cratering fields around a bunker, spending time, logistics, barrel life and risking retaliation from counter-artillery... or fire one shell that actually hits.

 

[Husky_Khan]

This appears to just be the dollar value of manufacturing, which isn't a particularly useful metric for measuring warmaking capacity. A shell that costs 19 times as much to make in one country is not necessarily 19 times better or more useful.

So Mexico, Indonesia and Turkey have nineteen times the "costs" of Russia?

This is monetary value, not actual output. What is the actual production output? How many tonnes of steel for instance did the UK produce as opposed to Russia?

Why look for the answer the questions you pose when you can just demand more answers?

"Actually produces"

"West only prints money"

"I didn't mean particular sector"

"I meant total stuff"

"I mean cars"

"I meant space launch capacity."

"I mean semiconductors"

"I actually mean tonnes of steel but only between UK and Russia for instance"

Keep moving them goalposts as you do the hard work of just asking questions lol.

 

[LordsFire]

This appears to just be the dollar value of manufacturing, which isn't a particularly useful metric for measuring warmaking capacity. A shell that costs 19 times as much to make in one country is not necessarily 19 times better or more useful.

This is monetary value, not actual output. What is the actual production output? How many tonnes of steel for instance did the UK produce as opposed to Russia?

If you're so confident about these issues, you surely have the figures and industrial reports handy that made you so confident in these figures, right?

Just show your notes, that'll make your argument quite well.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

People just do not get how much of a wreck Russia is. Yes it has the size, the manpower and the natural resources to be a problem, but it is so crippled by corruption that it can’t use them. Communism ran their economy and society into the ground, dramatically worsening an already existing corruption, and attempts to correct this with economic shock therapy just killed off whatever was left. Thereafter the ruins of a could’ve-been super power were parcelled out to gangsters and cronies who somehow managed to run it down even more whilst extracting as much wealth for themselves as possible.

Modern Russia is an opportunistic mafia state and very far from the alternative to the “decadent” west so many on the Right are desperate to believe it is. By the way, it is in the Kremlin’s interest for you to think that way, and do you really think they wouldn’t be trying to influence you to think that way?

Did I just call conservative anti-Ukraine sentiment the result of a Russian psy-op? Maybe…maybe…

 

[LordsFire]

Did I just call conservative anti-Ukraine sentiment the result of a Russian psy-op? Maybe…maybe…

As I've said before, I can understand the people who just don't want to be involved. I think they're making a strategic error, but I at least understand the thinking.

The people who insist that Russia is in the right in this conflict, or that Russia has gotten stronger through this war, or other nonsense...

Honestly, it's just embarrassing.

 

[Captain X]

Honestly the people simping for Russia are proving Yuri Bezmenov right.

 

[Abhorsen]

Yeah. As someone who's very much not a fan of Ukraine (IMO they've ceased to be a democratic country), they are still better than Russia, and I'd love for them to win. I don't think it's in America's interest to spend money and effort to help Ukraine win though, especially at this point.

As a side note, I think it's fair to just take the win: you've exposed Russia (or really, Putin exposed Russia) as a paper tiger and humiliated them on the world stage. You've kneecapped Wagner by putting it under the state, so it's long term no different (and no more use) than the Russian Army. Even if Russia wins totally tomorrow, they've lost from where they were prior to the invasion IMO. They get land and a populace that hates them in exchange for looking like a clown and losing a key strategic asset's main value.

The reason the war is going to still be fought by Russia is that it's domestically necessary, not for it's foreign policy implications. Which is why I think a land for NATO admission is viable exit strategy. Both sides can sell it as a win.

 

[Zachowon]

Yeah. As someone who's very much not a fan of Ukraine (IMO they've ceased to be a democratic country), they are still better than Russia, and I'd love for them to win. I don't think it's in America's interest to spend money and effort to help Ukraine win though, especially at this point.

As a side note, I think it's fair to just take the win: you've exposed Russia (or really, Putin exposed Russia) as a paper tiger and humiliated them on the world stage. You've kneecapped Wagner by putting it under the state, so it's long term no different (and no more use) than the Russian Army. Even if Russia wins totally tomorrow, they've lost from where they were prior to the invasion IMO. They get land and a populace that hates them in exchange for looking like a clown and losing a key strategic asset's main value.

The reason the war is going to still be fought by Russia is that it's domestically necessary, not for it's foreign policy implications. Which is why I think a land for NATO admission is viable exit strategy. Both sides can sell it as a win.

Russia will never allow Ukraine to be NATO

 

[Abhorsen]

Russia will never allow Ukraine to be NATO

I don't know that Putin cares enough about Russia's future that he won't trade that for a big domestic win when he needs one.

 

[Zachowon]

I don't know that Putin cares enough about Russia's future that he won't trade that for a big domestic win when he needs one.

It would basically destroy any domestic argument for why he started the war.
The Russians argue NATO is who they are fighting

 

[Abhorsen]

It would basically destroy any domestic argument for why he started the war.
The Russians argue NATO is who they are fighting

Nah. You just tell them loudly enough about the great victory you have won, how you've defeated the nazis (get Ukraine to ban Azov as part of the peace), taken the land to defend ethnic russians, etc, and that you succeeded at what you wanted despite all of NATO opposing you. Even harp about how even the US now recognizes that Russia is the rightful owner of Crimea (as part of it would be international recognition of Russian owning Ukrainian territory). All lies of course, but Putin's good at that lying stuff.

The reason NATO recognizes Ukraine's lost land? It's so that there's no disputed territory which makes Ukraine's NATO ascension even viable.

 

[Zachowon]

Nah. You just tell them loudly enough about the great victory you have won, how you've defeated the nazis (get Ukraine to ban Azov as part of the peace), taken the land to defend ethnic russians, etc, and that you succeeded at what you wanted despite all of NATO opposing you. Even harp about how even the US now recognizes that Russia is the rightful owner of Crimea (as part of it would be international recognition of Russian owning Ukrainian territory). All lies of course, but Putin's good at that lying stuff.

The reason NATO recognizes Ukraine's lost land? It's so that there's no disputed territory which makes Ukraine's NATO ascension even viable.

Russia won't do that.
It isn't about that pride, they want all of Ukraine.
They will kot agree to let Ukraine in NATO.
No peace deal has ever allowed that and wont..
He'll Russia makes sure it is known

 

[Abhorsen]

Russia won't do that.
It isn't about that pride, they want all of Ukraine.
They will kot agree to let Ukraine in NATO.
No peace deal has ever allowed that and wont..
He'll Russia makes sure it is known

Look, if Russia can't agree to that, then quite bluntly they'll be at war forever until Ukraine falls. Those are the two options. Or, we could bother to actually ask Putin what works for Putin (not Russia).