Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

[Skallagrim]

I don't think anybody suggested that Nazi Germany didn't want war with the USSR?

Rather, both Nazi Germany AND USSR wanted war. It is just that it was in Germany's interest for war to happen as quickly as possible, whereas USSR was hoping to set Germany against the West, watch as they bleed each other dry in (Soviets hoped) a replay of First World War, and then invade and spread Communism to entire Europe.

That is true, but the claim being challenged here is precisely that the USSR wanted war immediately, and that Hitler beat Stalin to the punch by mere months or even weeks. That's not supported by any real evidence. In fact, Stalin expected Hitler to stay busy in the West for a while (what with Britain not folding), and was still biding his time for a future strike. Stalin even kept sending Hitler resource shipments, as per their agreement, right up to Hitler's betrayal.

Anyway, this has gone way off topic. I'll cut my commentary off here.

 

[ATP]

Precautionary measures mostly, which were ultimately ineffective because it was like a small dam made by beavers trying to hold back a flash flood. See, the Reds/Stalin didn't expect Germany to be able to attack that soon; they thought they'd have enough time to ramp up and invade first. They thought these additional precautions would be enough to respond to a hypothetical German attack and infiltration at that time.

Unfortunately, Stalin and the Soviets heavily underestimated the Germans and Hitler, and they were ready -- but sort of but not really.

See, while they did attack early, were sort of ready compared to the Reds, there were critical flaws in Germany's plans:

• They hoped to blitz all the way through the Soviet Union as they did France and other countries and win decisively before such supply issues would be a problem, since France and Poland were basically next door to Germany
• The taking of and reliance on Soviet oil infrastructure to supply their forces with critical fuel reserves

Germany's batshit insane gambit of zerg rushing worked... initially.

After losing a massive chunk of their territory from the German advance, the Soviets eventually managed to stabilize the front line, with the linchpin being Stalingrad which held. This basically fucked the German's over as their time basically run out.

The Germans basically repeated the mistake the French did centuries prior -- the infamous Russian Winter and supply lines.

They hadn't prepared for the killer cold because they didn't think they needed to, their supply lines were stretched thin, and they hadn't managed to take the oil fields which their strategy heavily relied upon. Soldiers literally froze to death, fuel was limited, spare parts were nonexistent, and food and other essentials were scant and hard to come by.

The Soviets held, moved their production behind the Urals, ramped up said production while the enemy was banging on the gates, and then literally drowned the Germans with numbers, ironically counter-zerging them.

If the Soviets hadn't held Stalingrad and Germany won that battle, Russia would've been fucked... but so would Germany to ultimately a lesser extent, since Stalin ordered all the oil infrastructure further south to be scuttled if it were in danger of falling to the Germans.

Germany needed those oil fields not just for fuel but for war materiel production, after all.

German lost,becouse instead of coming as liberators and gave land to peasants they keep kolchoz ,and replaced NKWD with gestapo.Moreover,if you cooperate with soviets you could become part of new elite/till next purge/ ,when german made everybody slave.

Back to topic - removing barbed wire on border was not precaution.Soviets also disarmed bunkers on Stalin line,and could not defend there as result.
It is not sign of precautions,but preparing for their own attack.

 

[Poe]

I don't think anybody suggested that Nazi Germany didn't want war with the USSR?

Rather, both Nazi Germany AND USSR wanted war. It is just that it was in Germany's interest for war to happen as quickly as possible, whereas USSR was hoping to set Germany against the West, watch as they bleed each other dry in (Soviets hoped) a replay of First World War, and then invade and spread Communism to entire Europe.

Literally what started this conversation that being said. @ATP said that Germany wouldn't go to war with the USSR because the two are allies and are going to divide up Poland, I said that's hilarious because they went to war when they were actually allies after having actually divided up Poland. To which he responded with a conspiracy theory that the Nazi's only did it out of defense.

You should read the thread if you think no one has said this because

 

[Aldarion]

Literally what started this conversation that being said. @ATP said that Germany wouldn't go to war with the USSR because the two are allies and are going to divide up Poland, I said that's hilarious because they went to war when they were actually allies after having actually divided up Poland. To which he responded with a conspiracy theory that the Nazi's only did it out of defense.

You should read the thread if you think no one has said this because

??? I didn't understand his post that way. If this is the post you are talking about:

Only becouse soviets tried to backstab them.Hitler was mad,but smart enough to see that,and backstabbed them first.
If he failed to do so,soviets would attack him - and we would live in soviet world now.
Well,you maybe would live,my parents would die so i would never be born.

@Jormungandr , @Husky_Khan i wish that it would be rants.When it happen,i would say "see,i told you" when we meet in massgrave.

Then he is technically correct. Communists were by nature backstabbers and were always going to try and invade Europe. And Hitler and Nazis always understood this - they knew their socialists, after all! - and thus never intended to have a proper alliance with the Communists. They knew they would be backstabbed anyway, not to mention that Nazis themselves were notorious backstabbers as well, which meant that Soviets too knew that they would be backstabbed by the Nazis.

So while you can argue (and likely correctly) that Nazis will have attacked USSR anyway, regardless of whether Soviets intended to backstab them or not, it is a fact that Hitler knew that Stalin would eventually backstab him, and was not in the mood to wait for his advantage to wither away. Nazi Germany was an extremely socialist economy, and because of that, its economy was already entering meltdown by 1941. Hitler knew that war with USSR was coming one way or another, and decided to attack while he still had the advantage.

That being said, I do disagree with @ATP saying that Soviets were preparing for an imminent attack on Germany. It was still some years down the line, most likely.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Anyway, this has gone way off topic. I'll cut my commentary off here.

The Donbass Thread is the runoff for off topic discussions relating to Slavering Slavdom and other things.

 

[Bacle]

 

[Marduk]

Russia got jealous and has imported the same "diversity problems" London and Berlin have.
The only different thing is that Moscow is a bit more heavy handed in attempting to hide it under the carpet.

 

[Buba]

I have vague recollection of something similar happening in Moscow in the 90s. With some variety of Caucasians being beaten up?

 

[Bacle]

The man played a bad hand well but it doesn't detract from the fact that he had a bad hand and how bad his hand was, was hidden from him. Because he didn't know how bad the rot is russias weakness has been exposed to the world. The longer they bleed in Ukraine the more blood and treasure they lose the worse they will do in the next war.

See, that's the thing, the way this war is going and what is happening inside Russia...there is not likely to be a 'next war' for the Russian Federation.

The invasion of Ukraine will likely be the end of both Putin and Russia's legacy empire when the internal blowback is settled out.

A lot of occupied republics that Moscow has conquered and absorbed will become independent again, and the CCP has put Vladivostok and Sakhalin back on their maps of 'historical claims/rightful territory.

Beijing/Xi has realized that controlling parts of the post-Russian space may be easier and more profitable than going for Taiwan.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Beijing/Xi has realized that controlling parts of the post-Russian space may be easier and more profitable than going for Taiwan.

I'm pretty sure that's why China has enabled the Nork's sale of weaponry to Russia.

 

[Bacle]

I'm pretty sure that's why China has enabled the Nork's sale of weaponry to Russia.

The weapons the CCP has helped NK deliver to Russia are mostly things that are unlikely to be used against the CCP, because they are needed immediately in the invasion of Ukraine.

Notice very little of what the CCP has helped Russia get is lasting long enough to be in storage if/when the Russian Federation breaks up, and Xi/his successor makes their play.

Lot easier to do logistics overland in your own territory than keep an opposed amphib invasion going.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Lot easier to do logistics overland in your own territory than keep an opposed amphib invasion going.

I shall clarify my thought process...

China has supported Russia (and the Nork's support of Russia) in order to get Russia to bleed more on the Western Front. I believe that Xi/CCP is waiting for Russia to start collapsing before they move into Eastern Russia for 'humanitarian' reasons.

 

[TheRejectionist]

Russia got jealous and has imported the same "diversity problems" London and Berlin have.
The only different thing is that Moscow is a bit more heavy handed in attempting to hide it under the carpet.

They also handle this bullshit harder than Europe as far as I remember.

Though Italy might to resemble Moscow on how it handles this kind of behavior.

Ok off topic but who the fuck wants to go to Yakutia ? It is colder than Central Asia.

 

[Bacle]

They also handle this bullshit harder than Europe as far as I remember.

Though Italy might to resemble Moscow on how it handles this kind of behavior.

Ok off topic but who the fuck wants to go to Yakutia ? It is colder than Central Asia.

The native Yakut's, who are relatives of the Alaskan Inuit and Aleut peoples, who have been living on both sides of the Bering for thousands of years.

 

[Buba]

Ok off topic but who the fuck wants to go to Yakutia ? It is colder than Central Asia.

Only in winter ... in summer it is more comfy than Central Asia.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Only in winter ... in summer it is more comfy than Central Asia.

So is pretty much most of the Earth at that time!

 

[TheRejectionist]

The native Yakut's, who are relatives of the Alaskan Inuit and Aleut peoples, who have been living on both sides of the Bering for thousands of years.

Backe I was referring to those are not local..

 

[Marduk]

I shall clarify my thought process...

China has supported Russia (and the Nork's support of Russia) in order to get Russia to bleed more on the Western Front. I believe that Xi/CCP is waiting for Russia to start collapsing before they move into Eastern Russia for 'humanitarian' reasons.

Also the NK stuff is of terrifying quality.

 

[Marduk]

They also handle this bullshit harder than Europe as far as I remember.

Only if it gets too public, Singapore and Saudis handle this truly hard.

Though Italy might to resemble Moscow on how it handles this kind of behavior.

Ok off topic but who the fuck wants to go to Yakutia ? It is colder than Central Asia.

Who the fuck wants to go to Sweden?
Money can get people to ignore weather.

 

[ATP]

The future of warfare, western gamers on drones and gamers in tanks, ruining Russia's plans.

Why not both? gamers could use drones to coordinate artllery,too.

Basement NEETs: "My time hath come!"

Thanks to that,we could have consprict army again,as long as they would be using drones.