Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

[lloyd007]

Twitter Thread on the State of Russian Military Medicine... and It's Certainly Not Improving. While Ukraine's pre-war preparations gave it one of the most hospital beds per capita, with eight hospital beds per one million people, compared with five for the European Union.

In Russia reportedly front line hospitals only provide something resembling more comprehensive care to wounded Russian officers with the rank and file often treated without anesthetics or sustained medication. They are often forced to be treated in converted schools and other buildings instead of purpose built medical facilities. Much of the military medical supplies have to be crowdsourced donations. Also medical facilities currently in use are deteriorating. Some hospitals are apparently using beds imported from the British during World War Two's Lend Lease program.

Thread by @ChrisO_wiki on Thread Reader App

@ChrisO_wiki: 1/ Russian front-line hospitals are experiencing acute shortages of personnel and supplies. Only officers are reportedly evacuated to Russia, with ordinary soldiers being treated without anaesthesia or...…

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Probably a bonus for the Kremlin; less wounded / disabled vets means less of them possibly protesting as well as now being a net drain on the Russian (or at least the government) economy.

I'm pretty sure I'm not hyperbolizing this stance either if much of Russian history (especially that of the Soviet Union and even continuing with Yeltsin and Putin) is any guide.

 

[Megadeath]

The difference is that proxy war against Russia somehow manages to be an even worse idea, insofar as none of the irrelevant Middle Eastern sandbox countries actually had Weapons of Mass Destruction.

So? Having weapons of mass destruction can't be carte blanche for aggressive expansionist foreign policy unless you're willing to just completely capitulate. If you supinely let them conquer Ukraine, the idea they'll just stop being a dick at that point is beyond naive. Rather, they'll just get more ambitious and be working from a significantly stronger position.

 

[Bacle]

Too bad.

Unless you are Hell bent on becoming part of someone else’s empire, the game of empires is not something you can opt out of.

That was before the age of nukes; no one is going to make the US part of their empire so long as our nuclear triad is secure, and that's before we even get into what nation would actually be able to attempt to invade and conquer the US.

 

[Megadeath]

That was before the age of nukes; no one is going to make the US part of their empire so long as our nuclear triad is secure, and that's before we even get into what nation would actually be able to attempt to invade and conquer the US.

You don't have to be angling to build an empire to be in the game. Preventing any country building up to a point where they can threaten American and their interests (Which doesn't have to come even close to meaning actual physical invasion.) is still playing the game.

 

[Bacle]

You don't have to be angling to build an empire to be in the game. Preventing any country building up to a point where they can threaten American and their interests (Which doesn't have to come even close to meaning actual physical invasion.) is still playing the game.

That is not how most of the American public sees what we do to protect our own borders and interests.

It feels like 'game of empires' is a fancy and needless out-of-date way of saying a nation has a 'foreign policy' at all.

It would be very, very helpful if Euro's and our allies started caring about what the American public feels about US foreign policy, instead of acting like US domestic politics doesn't matter to what our 'allies' expect of US.

Like, half the push-back against Ukraine would probably be moot if people acted grateful for the fact the US decided to form NATO after WW2, and remained grateful to the US for for our nuclear umbrella over their ungrateful ass's, instead of constant talking down to Americans, acting like Euro's are so much better than us, and generally treating how the US public feels about things as a secondary concern compared to what the US can do for Euro's based on treaties signed before most of us were born.

Stop taking the US and US domestic support of international efforts for granted, and start showing so fucking gratitude.

 

[Megadeath]

That is not how most of the American public sees what we do to protect our own borders and interests.

It feels like 'game of empires' is a fancy and needless out-of-date way of saying a nation has a 'foreign policy' at all.

It would be very, very helpful if Euro's and our allies started caring about what the American public feels about US foreign policy, instead of acting like US domestic politics doesn't matter to what our 'allies' expect of US.

Like, half the push-back against Ukraine would probably be moot if people acted grateful for the fact the US decided to form NATO after WW2, and remained grateful to the US for for our nuclear umbrella over their ungrateful ass's, instead of constant talking down to Americans, acting like Euro's are so much better than us, and generally treating how the US public feels about things as a secondary concern compared to what the US can do for Euro's based on treaties signed before most of us were born.

Stop taking the US and US domestic support of international efforts for granted, and start showing so fucking gratitude.

Most of the American public are under-informed, undereducated, and excessively entitled. (To be clear, I don't think you or even most the Americans on this site are, but I don't think this site represents the general American population.) Both NATO and the current global nuclear climate were things America pursued out of enlightened self interest, and in so much as gratitude is owed it's to the architects and developers of the particular policies. An awful lot of Americans seem to expect the rest of the people of the world to treat every American individually with deference and respect for the decisions of policy makers, some whom as you say are long dead, that they know little about, and who they themselves rarely seem to respect or appreciate.

For myself, I am glad for the role America plays on the international stage and the manner in which they do so. I also recognise the rewards they reap from playing that commanding role though and don't for a second believe that America as a nation does what it does out of pure altruism or good nature untempered by their own interests.

 

[Cherico]

Probably a bonus for the Kremlin; less wounded / disabled vets means less of them possibly protesting as well as now being a net drain on the Russian (or at least the government) economy.

I'm pretty sure I'm not hyperbolizing this stance either if much of Russian history (especially that of the Soviet Union and even continuing with Yeltsin and Putin) is any guide.

Good way to get replaced by a military junta.

 

[Bacle]

Most of the American public are under-informed, undereducated, and excessively entitled. (To be clear, I don't think you or even most the Americans on this site are, but I don't think this site represents the general American population.) Both NATO and the current global nuclear climate were things America pursued out of enlightened self interest, and in so much as gratitude is owed it's to the architects and developers of the particular policies. An awful lot of Americans seem to expect the rest of the people of the world to treat every American individually with deference and respect for the decisions of policy makers, some whom as you say are long dead, that they know little about, and who they themselves rarely seem to respect or appreciate.

For myself, I am glad for the role America plays on the international stage and the manner in which they do so. I also recognise the rewards they reap from playing that commanding role though and don't for a second believe that America as a nation does what it does out of pure altruism or good nature untempered by their own interests.

That's fair.

However, you have to understand the US never really abandoned the Monroe Doctrine domestically; NATO was a response to Stalin and the USSR's hegemony over much of Eurasia, not because the US public really wanted to be stuck handling/policing Old World squabbles indefinitely.

It's why the pullout from Veitnam happened as it did, despite the best efforts of the DoD/DC to keep a positive spin on the conflict up till the pull out and try to downplay how the French had just caused the US to waste many years and lives on a futile fight to help them keep their colony. The DoD and DC have done a very, very good job convincing other nations (including you Aussies, who are one of the who who don't talk down to the US, usually) that the US public supports foreign interventions and military aid far, far more than it normally does.

Edit: The American public also is...well, American, and you can call us entitled, undereducated, and what not; still have the first flight, first nuke, first moonlanding, and Hollywood.

'America, Fuck Yeah' isn't as dead as it seems.

 

[Zachowon]

Without the US the world would crumble and be taken in by China.

Edit:
@Bacle Vietnam is practically ancient history in terms of the military
Due to the fact not a single soul who is still in was invovled then....
And literally nobody in the military cares.
We care more for A-Stan pullout then we do Vietnam

 

[Bacle]

Without the US the world would crumble and be taken in by China.

India, France, Israel, Saudi Arabia, the Swiss, Poland, Finland, and Brazil are too damn stubborn and prideful to be suborned by the CCP completely, or for a long time, no matter what the US does. Also pretty sure the only way the CCP take Japan is as a pile of burnt up, radioactive rubble.

I have more faith in the national pride of other nations to resist the CCP enslaving them or dominating them, without us involved, I think is the difference here.

 

[Megadeath]

That's fair.

However, you have to understand the US never really abandoned the Monroe Doctrine domestically; NATO was a response to Stalin and the USSR's hegemony over much of Eurasia, not because the US public really wanted to be stuck handling/policing Old World squabbles indefinitely.

It's why the pullout from Veitnam happened as it did, despite the best efforts of the DoD/DC to keep a positive spin on the conflict up till the pull out and try to downplay how the French had just caused the US to waste many years and lives on a futile fight to help them keep their colony. The DoD and DC have done a very, very good job convincing other nations (including you Aussies, who are one of the who who don't talk down to the US, usually) that the US public supports foreign interventions and military aid far, far more than it normally does.

Edit: The American public also is...well, American, and you can call us entitled, undereducated, and what not; still have the first flight, first nuke, first moonlanding, and Hollywood.

'America, Fuck Yeah' isn't as dead as it seems.

Oh, yeah, and don't get me wrong. I love a lot about America. I think also that you're basically right about most of that. I dunno about other nations thinking that there is that public support for intervention and aid though. I think it's more that most nations agree that it's a good thing but see it as benefiting America too, so they consider the management of domestic opinion on it a purely domestic affair. The best thing is for America to keep doing the right thing and playing the part of a strong, benevolent world leader. There's not a lot other countries can do to influence that though, so they're quite prepared to make the best of a bad situation and take whatever advantage they can get when America doesn't.

 

[lloyd007]

Good way to get replaced by a military junta.

Not in Russia it isn't since Putin is a student of history and purged what was left of the officer corps for cronies like Shoigu and Gerasimov... and they've all stayed there long past any glory days.

The only one who had any shot that we know of was Prigozhin and we know how that farce turned out.

 

[Zachowon]

India, France, Israel, Saudi Arabia, the Swiss, Poland, Finland, and Brazil are too damn stubborn and prideful to be suborned by the CCP completely, or for a long time, no matter what the US does. Also pretty sure the only way the CCP take Japan is as a pile of burnt up, radioactive rubble.

I have more faith in the national pride of other nations to resist the CCP enslaving them or dominating them, without us involved, I think is the difference here.

Bacle,
They would eventually crumble because China would take Iverson the world as lead Hegemon and basically rule the seas.
You want goods? Gotta import or pay China.
Wanna build a Navy?
Well to bad, China won't sell you any materials needed or won't let thier ships or containers be used...

 

[ATP]

Too bad.

Unless you are Hell bent on becoming part of someone else’s empire, the game of empires is not something you can opt out of.

You could burn worlf evert time somebody try dominate you.It worked for England for 250 years.
Or,you could hide in place where nobody would conqer you,becouse it cost them too much.
It worked for Switzerland.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

That's why they've kidnapped so many Ukrainian kids.

They are multi-purpose hostages; piggy-banks to avoid sanctions, population replacement for the next gen, and a way to cut out part of Ukraine's future.

Russia is such a piece of shit.

 

[Cherico]

Russia is such a piece of shit.

Has been since ivan the terrible

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Has been since ivan the terrible

Right, as a Brit, this is one of the reasons I really don’t want America to go full isolationist.

Please. Don’t. Leave. Us. Alone. With. Them.

 

[Cherico]

Right, as a Brit, this is one of the reasons I really don’t want America to go full isolationist.

Please. Don’t. Leave. Us. Alone. With. Them.

Your British you lot would be fine it's everyone else on the continent that would be boned if we leave.

 

[Skallagrim]

Right, as a Brit, this is one of the reasons I really don’t want America to go full isolationist.

Please. Don’t. Leave. Us. Alone. With. Them.

Europe could, at least in theory, beat Russia without any American help. Russia is a shithole whose pre-war economy was outmatched by that of Italy. What Europe lacks is strength of will, but needs must, and if it really came down to it-- fuck Russia, it's a ruin of a country.

The real problem is that Europe couldn't stand up to China alone. Especially since if America drops out as a counter-weight, most of the non-European world will (either actively or passively) side with China.

And even then, if Europe found its strength, it could at least become a "fortress" and keep the outside world away. But that's a losing strategy in the long term. (For America, too. Which is why retreating into isolationism, at this stage, is suicidal for all of us. The Tokugawa model only buys you some time, before the gunboats come.)

 

[Lord Sovereign]

And even then, if Europe found its strength, it could at least become a "fortress" and keep the outside world away. But that's a losing strategy in the long term. (For America, too. Which is why retreating into isolationism, at this stage, is suicidal for all of us. The Tokugawa model only buys you some time, before the gunboats come.)

A fortress you are willing to sally out of is a winning strategy to my mind. Don’t cut yourself off from the world, but still keep some high walls to retreat behind.