Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

[Tiamat]

...It's very disturbing that, to me, this looks just like an airsoft match someone uploaded to YouTube. Am I that desensitized?

Eh, unfortunately that's just a symptom of the culture, right or wrong, nowadays. At first glance sure, it's easy to compare images to a computer strategy game or FPS, it's easy to compare something like that to paintball or airsoft at first glance...

...until that is you realize that YES, it's real men (and women) dying in those pictures, those aren't paintballs or plastic BB's getting fired, those are live rounds, etc.

in that last video, that's legit CQB in a trench. Tight confines with long exposed spaces with adjoining trenches from different potential angles of attack. Nobody wants to get stuck clearing something like that unless they have to. Preferably done with liberal use of grenades.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

This is probably one of the most intimate views of war the wider public has ever been able to see. Of course the most disturbing thing about combat is its sheer mundanity. The troopers here quite nonchalantly double tap the Russians.

The only thing that surprised me was the lack of gore.

Edit: According to some twitter posts, the poor bastards the Ukrainians are making mincemeat of here are probably mobiks.

 

[Zachowon]

Bullets arnt that gory when wearing that much gear.
It'd when they have so little that really matters

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Gore is exaggerated by Hollywood and gaming. It's also not something rifle rounds tend to cause.

That comes with cannon and explosives. Course it's not really something you notice right off because of the concussion either.

 

[Husky_Khan]

...It's very disturbing that, to me, this looks just like an airsoft match someone uploaded to YouTube. Am I that desensitized?

Yeah the perception gap looks pretty real. The poor Mobiks just fell over like sacks of potatoes when shot. No blood sprays or writhing about or anguished death rattles. It looks like you could easily re-enact it with minimal effort by just acting like your falling over.

Plus some would expect more gore in "realistic" settings. But it's not like the set up shots you get in a realistic war movie. And the blur on the camera probably helps with that too.

Even going First Person with this view doesn't even give a fraction of the intensity either of course. And not just from the impending doom/danger. Just think about watching a professional sports game like baseball or football and the excitement and kinetic action of it all, versus actually facing a 100 mph curveball heading to your face or being on the front line of impact in a football or rugby game. Fixing a go pro to your head wouldn't convey the same impact. There's still a lot lost in it all.

 

[Megadeath]

Yeah the perception gap looks pretty real. The poor Mobiks just fell over like sacks of potatoes when shot. No blood sprays or writhing about or anguished death rattles. It looks like you could easily re-enact it with minimal effort by just acting like your falling over.

Plus some would expect more gore in "realistic" settings. But it's not like the set up shots you get in a realistic war movie. And the blur on the camera probably helps with that too.

Even going First Person with this view doesn't even give a fraction of the intensity either of course. And not just from the impending doom/danger. Just think about watching a professional sports game like baseball or football and the excitement and kinetic action of it all, versus actually facing a 100 mph curveball heading to your face or being on the front line of impact in a football or rugby game. Fixing a go pro to your head wouldn't convey the same impact. There's still a lot lost in it all.

I think if you set this to the right "tense background music" and overlay with heavy breathing escalating at the right moments, you'll in some way approximate the recorder's experience in proxy. Or alternatively watch the footage through a special device set to administer electric shocks of semi-random intensity wherever there's motion. Values adjusted up for artificial nature, involvement of weapon systems, volume, proximity to last instance, etc. and at least somewhat down for the right conditions too.

 

[Husky_Khan]

It also seems pretty airsofty due to the use of the suppressed weapons and or the sound possibly being muted on the video. Grenades were just pops as well. Gunfire is usually pretty deafening.

 

[lloyd007]

...It's very disturbing that, to me, this looks just like an airsoft match someone uploaded to YouTube. Am I that desensitized?

The censorship by blurring and muted rifle pops take away most of the visceral impact to me.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

The censorship by blurring and muted rifle pops take away most of the visceral impact to me.

I'm OK with that. War is horrible enough.

 

[Husky_Khan]

The censorship by blurring and muted rifle pops take away most of the visceral impact to me.

The uncensored video isn't hard to find on Twitter or whatever. I think it was posted in the replies in the original tweet or in the replies to the original source from the Special Forces of Ukraine.

 

[Zachowon]

I will say, the video of the Ukrainian and his pal holding off against the Russians was more impactful because if the unsurpassed weapons

 

[Tiamat]

Edit: According to some twitter posts, the poor bastards the Ukrainians are making mincemeat of here are probably mobiks.

No surprise if true. In a way that just makes its worse, I almost feel sorry for the poor bastards.

There's a reason why in 1918, WW1 American troops were given pump shotguns to clear trenches.

 

[Bacle]

They broke rule 1 any soldier should know.
Never leave your weapon unattended. It should be in your hands no matter what

Supposedly the Russians are having weapons stored in 'weapons pyramids' in central locations, in order to keep track of them, the ammo, and to keep mobiks from offing themselves randomly. Also makes it less likely officers get fragged for issuing suicidal orders.

The thought is the Russians figure they should have enough warning of a trench raid to be able to get to the weapons pyramid before the raiders get to them.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Supposedly the Russians are having weapons stored in 'weapons pyramids' in central locations, in order to keep track of them, the ammo, and to keep mobiks from offing themselves randomly. Also makes it less likely officers get fragged for issuing suicidal orders.

The thought is the Russians figure they should have enough warning of a trench raid to be able to get to the weapons pyramid before the raiders get to them.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Centuries of confusing vodka for water has probably damaged the intelligence of the Russian on a genetic level.

 

[Tiamat]

Centuries of confusing vodka for water has probably damaged the intelligence of the Russian on a genetic level.

The hilarious bit is that it's kind of true. According to the Great Wiki:



The name vodka is a diminutive form of the Slavic word voda (water), interpreted as "little water": root vod- [water] + -k- (diminutive suffix, among other functions) + -a (ending of feminine gender).[8][9][10]

In English literature, the word vodka appeared in around the late 18th century. In a book of travels published in English in 1780 (presumably, a translation from German), Johann Gottlieb Georgi correctly explained that "kabak in the Russian language signifies a public house for the common people to drink vodka (a sort of brandy) in."[11] William Tooke in 1799 glossed vodka as "rectified corn-spirits",[12] using the traditional English sense of the word "corn" to refer to any grain, not just maize. In French, Théophile Gautier in 1800 glossed it as a "grain liquor" served with meals in Poland (eau-de-vie de grain).[13]

Another possible connection of vodka with "water" is the name of the medieval alcoholic beverage aqua vitae (Latin, literally, "water of life"), which is reflected in Polish okowita, Ukrainian оковита, Belarusian акавіта, and Scandinavian akvavit. Whiskey has a similar etymology, from the Irish and Scottish Gaelic uisce beatha/uisge-beatha.




I take exception, and am a bit insulted that Johann Gottlieb Georgi called vodka a "sort of brandy". Cleaning fluid would be more accurate.

 

[lloyd007]

Supposedly the Russians are having weapons stored in 'weapons pyramids' in central locations, in order to keep track of them, the ammo, and to keep mobiks from offing themselves randomly. Also makes it less likely officers get fragged for issuing suicidal orders.

The thought is the Russians figure they should have enough warning of a trench raid to be able to get to the weapons pyramid before the raiders get to them.

The high / low army in a nutshell. The 'high' parts are the contract soldiers / Wagners / artillerists / air force and etc. who can and will actually fight... and then there are the mobiks who fill in the gaps being cannon fodder on the attack and road blocks on the defense.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Supposedly the Russians are having weapons stored in 'weapons pyramids' in central locations, in order to keep track of them, the ammo, and to keep mobiks from offing themselves randomly. Also makes it less likely officers get fragged for issuing suicidal orders.

The thought is the Russians figure they should have enough warning of a trench raid to be able to get to the weapons pyramid before the raiders get to them.

Sadly it's a practice that I think should be more widespread. I'm not to keen on trusting the contract soldiers and mercenaries either. The Russian military doesn't have a strong NCO culture. All of the weapons should be kept in secure armories under lock and key, accessible only by Officers who will have their command posts nearby. Obviously both command posts and the armories should be instantly recognizable from afar and in case of sudden attack the soldiers can assemble around the armory for dispensing of arms.

 

[ATP]

The hilarious bit is that it's kind of true. According to the Great Wiki:



The name vodka is a diminutive form of the Slavic word voda (water), interpreted as "little water": root vod- [water] + -k- (diminutive suffix, among other functions) + -a (ending of feminine gender).[8][9][10]

In English literature, the word vodka appeared in around the late 18th century. In a book of travels published in English in 1780 (presumably, a translation from German), Johann Gottlieb Georgi correctly explained that "kabak in the Russian language signifies a public house for the common people to drink vodka (a sort of brandy) in."[11] William Tooke in 1799 glossed vodka as "rectified corn-spirits",[12] using the traditional English sense of the word "corn" to refer to any grain, not just maize. In French, Théophile Gautier in 1800 glossed it as a "grain liquor" served with meals in Poland (eau-de-vie de grain).[13]

Another possible connection of vodka with "water" is the name of the medieval alcoholic beverage aqua vitae (Latin, literally, "water of life"), which is reflected in Polish okowita, Ukrainian оковита, Belarusian акавіта, and Scandinavian akvavit. Whiskey has a similar etymology, from the Irish and Scottish Gaelic uisce beatha/uisge-beatha.




I take exception, and am a bit insulted that Johann Gottlieb Georgi called vodka a "sort of brandy". Cleaning fluid would be more accurate.

In Poand initially vodka was used as medicine,it was used as drink from 16th century if i remember correctly.

Which do not mean,that our peasants do not have means to knock themselves - they used maschrooms named toadstool.
/They chew it/
Which made our folklore more interesting - our imps supposed to live under toadstools,and,if you chew one,you supposed to start see thing like little people....

 

[Scottty]

Sadly it's a practice that I think should be more widespread. I'm not to keen on trusting the contract soldiers and mercenaries either. The Russian military doesn't have a strong NCO culture. All of the weapons should be kept in secure armories under lock and key, accessible only by Officers who will have their command posts nearby. Obviously both command posts and the armories should be instantly recognizable from afar and in case of sudden attack the soldiers can assemble around the armory for dispensing of arms.

If you are talking about a military base in peacetime, that can make sense.
But in wartime, in trenches on the front lines?