Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

The US has no part in starting this conflict.
Unless you take we were selling arms but they were buying them so more money for us
Western media had more of a part in supporting the Maidan protests than the MIC/IC did.

Also, it is rather amazing that Ukrainians not wanting to deal with Moscow after everything Moscow has done to them over the centuries is completely ignored as a factor by 'peaceful' people.
 
Question.
Where does the money the MIC makes go?
Who supplies the MIC?
Hmm.
Sounds like a lot of business for people.
More jobs as we increase production.

You an Ancap that doesn't like war.
You are a horrible Ancap. Who ever can sell the most and make the most out of it.
He'll, invest in MIC stocks.
Make your own money.
Lots of jobs for those companies as well.
People gotta build it.
Yes, thank you for a perfect example of someone who doesn't know what an ancap is, and thinks that AnCap = greedy. The money to pay this is coming from US tax dollars, which are all stolen. Stealing money is not anCap compatible. And that's ignoring how often the weapons are used to kill innocents.

You completely and utterly discount any organic, native unhappiness with Russian' meddling in Ukraine's desire to go into the EU, instead of stay with Moscow, as just western 'little green men'.

Western intel services played some role, however Ukrainians have proved they do have a nationalistic feeling of their own, and 2014 was when it first became noticeable in a way that directly countered Russian control.
No, I do believe there was legitimate unhappiness. But the US assistence was also there. 'Helping' an actual organic belief is more efficient. But the US was still there, doing shit. Which is wrong, btw.
Western media had more of a part in supporting the Maidan protests than the MIC/IC did.
Given that the corporate media does the bidding of the intel agencies of the US, this isn't much of an argument, though I will say I see the difference, I could see how Russia wouldn't.
So it can happen, and in a big way.
Hasn't for a very long while. The only reason it lined up was because pouring money into a pit and lighting it on fire, knowing that the USSR had to do the same, was a legitimate military tactic vs actual, practicing communists, as our communism of handing out government contracts was orders of magnitude less onerous than theirs. But now that it isn't, as we aren't facing anyone practicing a command economy but the Norks, it's now back to being a waste of money to waste money.

Yet another reason why there is a need for more options, rather than resigning to picking one of the crappy ones.
See, there is no other option. Someone will own the foreign policy, and it won't be 'the common good'. It'll either be people saying leave me alone, got mine, or people saying "we can kill kids for cash". I know which I'll choose.
 
"
It absolutely does. We caused this problem. We actively support genocides in Yemen and in other places. I've absolutely no faith here that us intervening won't lead to us committing or causing even more horrors. Now do I want Ukraine to win? Yes. Can we ethically support them without setting the stage for more horrors? No.
"Assisting a human to the best of my abilities only affords a 25 percent survival rate. That means there's a 75 percent chance that despite my efforts, the human I'm assisting will die from something beyond my control. Therefore it's better to hasten the human's death and put them out of their likely chance of misery than to deplete my limited time."

"I don't think you understand the definition of "help."

"It's the most efficient way to assist them. Any other effort to help tends to result in numerous complex side-effects."
Seriously, I think this is even more insane than a straight-up "Russia is actually in the right side" argument or whatever the heck Agent23 is spouting. It's like saying I can't give bread to a starving kid because who knows? He might grow up to be the next Hitler!
 
Yes, thank you for a perfect example of someone who doesn't know what an ancap is, and thinks that AnCap = greedy. The money to pay this is coming from US tax dollars, which are all stolen. Stealing money is not anCap compatible. And that's ignoring how often the weapons are used to kill innocents.

No, I do believe there was legitimate unhappiness. But the US assistence was also there. 'Helping' an actual organic belief is more efficient. But the US was still there, doing shit. Which is wrong, btw.

Given that the corporate media does the bidding of the intel agencies of the US, this isn't much of an argument, though I will say I see the difference, I could see how Russia wouldn't.

Hasn't for a very long while. The only reason it lined up was because pouring money into a pit and lighting it on fire, knowing that the USSR had to do the same, was a legitimate military tactic vs actual, practicing communists, as our communism of handing out government contracts was orders of magnitude less onerous than theirs. But now that it isn't, as we aren't facing anyone practicing a command economy but the Norks, it's now back to being a waste of money to waste money.


See, there is no other option. Someone will own the foreign policy, and it won't be 'the common good'. It'll either be people saying leave me alone, got mine, or people saying "we can kill kids for cash". I know which I'll choose.
Oh, I forgot, you are one of those 'taxes are theft' idiots.

No wonder you keep harping on the unicorn farts of the NAP and AnCap ideologies.
 
The most likely result would be that the PLA proves just as much a paper tiger as the Russian military. You'd probably also see more Taiwanese volunteers, looking to gain direct intel on how the PLA would fight, and kill a few commies while they can.
Assuming the PLA would be '2/23/22 Russia... but Chicom' is a very dangerous assumption to make, not the least of which because Xinnie and his cabinet have spent the last year observing the war the same as everyone else.

You only have to look at the differences in upkeep between the sister ships Admiral Kuznetsov and Liaoning which I'd compare to the difference between a homeless krokodil addict and a successful business owner to realize that whatever issues the Chicom military has regarding corruption and being largely untested / inexperienced... it's far, FAR less than the basket case the Russian military was on 2/23 and has sunk down into in large part because Ukraine's defense budget went from $4-6 billion per year to $100 billion+ per year.
 
Seriously, I think this is even more insane than a straight-up "Russia is actually in the right side" argument or whatever the heck Agent23 is spouting. It's like saying I can't give bread to a starving kid because who knows? He might grow up to be the next Hitler!
Yes. Some argued the same thing about the brave mujahedeen Osama Bin Laden. It's like goddamn clockwork: everytime we 'help out' we are on the wrong side, or end up doing something horrific, or just fuck up entirely.

So yeah, I'm sorry I don't take comfort from this 'crazy' hypothetical that someone in Ukraine might go full Hitler when we know that full on units are in full on support of Hitler.
Oh, I forgot, you are one of those 'taxes are theft' idiots.

No wonder you keep harping on the unicorn farts of the NAP and AnCap ideologies.
Given you are the one who calls for Japan to invade Russia thinking you'll live through WW3, I'll leave the idiocy to you:
With what Russia is doing in Ukraine, I'd be fully onboard Tokyo sending an ultimatum to Moscow "Remove your troops from our Northern Territories, or we will remove them by force."

The fact Russia still hasn't signed the WW2 peace treaty and returned those islands to Japan is absurd on so many levels.
Yeah, at least when I'm high off of unicorn farts, I'm still aware that nuclear war is a thing everyone loses.
 
No, I do believe there was legitimate unhappiness. But the US assistence was also there. 'Helping' an actual organic belief is more efficient. But the US was still there, doing shit. Which is wrong, btw.
The problem is that leadership of none of the other, past or aspiring world powers believes that, on the contrary, they would consider it utterly idiotic to believe it.

Either all of them are wrong, or those who share your opinion are. I think they are more competent in the great game.
Hasn't for a very long while. The only reason it lined up was because pouring money into a pit and lighting it on fire, knowing that the USSR had to do the same, was a legitimate military tactic vs actual, practicing communists, as our communism of handing out government contracts was orders of magnitude less onerous than theirs. But now that it isn't, as we aren't facing anyone practicing a command economy but the Norks, it's now back to being a waste of money to waste money.
The current economic system of Russia and China are not much better than those of practicing communists, as numbers show. The West is worsening, but that doesn't change much. They represent more waste of money, and also with less freedoms. The West certainly won't improve if these powers representing even worse option get to dictate the rules in international trade and customs.
See, there is no other option. Someone will own the foreign policy, and it won't be 'the common good'. It'll either be people saying leave me alone, got mine, or people saying "we can kill kids for cash". I know which I'll choose.
There are no karma rewards in world politics. There are power rewards though.
If you think the burdens of being the world superpower suck, you *really* won't like the burdens of dealing with world superpowers that aren't you.
Also, if you hate the sandbox adventures (though with the "genocides in Yemen" i can only guess what sources you use, but i probably would not grade them highly), that's even more curious that you don't appreciate the distraction Ukraine provides to the MIC away from that.

If you can't bear with the harsh realities of a world where war was always part of the international affairs and it's gonna stay that way, i suggest tuning out of news and politics in general. Also, considering the quality of news you have shown to be getting, even more reason to do so.
Yes. Some argued the same thing about the brave mujahedeen Osama Bin Laden. It's like goddamn clockwork: everytime we 'help out' we are on the wrong side, or end up doing something horrific, or just fuck up entirely.
And yet the real mistake there is that USA was not proactive enough in taking down threats and ignored them for too long. Osama... was fitting the meme of "being known to intel services" for quite some time, and not so much for the good stories.
So yeah, I'm sorry I don't take comfort from this 'crazy' hypothetical that someone in Ukraine might go full Hitler when we know that full on units are in full on support of Hitler.
Only in Russian propaganda. Meanwhile it's Russia doing a lot of the stuff that got Hitler his reputation.
 
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Yes. Some argued the same thing about the brave mujahedeen Osama Bin Laden. It's like goddamn clockwork: everytime we 'help out' we are on the wrong side, or end up doing something horrific, or just fuck up entirely.

So yeah, I'm sorry I don't take comfort from this 'crazy' hypothetical that someone in Ukraine might go full Hitler when we know that full on units are in full on support of Hitler.

Given you are the one who calls for Japan to invade Russia thinking you'll live through WW3, I'll leave the idiocy to you:

Yeah, at least when I'm high off of unicorn farts, I'm still aware that nuclear war is a thing everyone loses.
The Kuriles are not Russian territory, they are land that was Japanese before WW2, and which the Soviet Union refused to return because they would not sign the treaty ending WW2.

And Moscow won't go to nukes over the Kuriles, because losing them is not fun, but not going to end the Russian state or even come close to it.

You just keep falling for the 'Russia will use nukes over anything and everything, don't resist them or help others resist them' bullshit. You'd fit right in at Russia Today.
 
There will never be cold rationality. That's what I'm saying. There will either be a dictator, looking out for himself, an isolationist viewpoint that ignores the outside other than trade, or a profiteering outlook looking to benefit the oligarchs who are in the Military Industrial Complex. Those are your options. Now choose.

And here we come to the quintessential proof of your blind ideology.

There are some things in politics where there are only clear, defined options, and no possibility of others, but these things are very few.

Foreign policy as a general concept is not one of them, and that you try to insist that it is, shows that you have closed your mind to reason.
 
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Yes. Some argued the same thing about the brave mujahedeen Osama Bin Laden. It's like goddamn clockwork: everytime we 'help out' we are on the wrong side, or end up doing something horrific, or just fuck up entirely.

So yeah, I'm sorry I don't take comfort from this 'crazy' hypothetical that someone in Ukraine might go full Hitler when we know that full on units are in full on support of Hitler.
Do you know anything? I don't mean about Ukraine, do you know anything at all?

And I don't mean that just as a snark. As far as I can tell, your argument is that people can't know anything. Because what we actually know about Zelensky or Afghanistan or anything is just propaganda of the MIC or the elites, and that the truth is almost inherently unknowable. So there's no correct decision that can be made about foreign policy, and really probably policy in general.

Man, this really is just full-blown anarchism.
 
The current economic system of Russia and China are not much better than those of practicing communists, as numbers show. The West is worsening, but that doesn't change much. They represent more waste of money, and also with less freedoms. The West certainly won't improve if these powers representing even worse option get to dictate the rules in international trade and customs.
They are significantly better. Huge orders of magnitude better. You completely underestimate the costs of a planned, centrally controlled economy vs the simple mass theft in Russia today or whatever the fuck China has. Both are shockingly better. Note crucially the lack of mass starvation as a key indicator of this.

Do you know anything? I don't mean about Ukraine, do you know anything at all?

And I don't mean that just as a snark. As far as I can tell, your argument is that people can't know anything. Because what we actually know about Zelensky or Afghanistan or anything is just propaganda of the MIC or the elites, and that the truth is almost inherently unknowable. So there's no correct decision that can be made about foreign policy, and really probably policy in general.

Man, this really is just full-blown anarchism.
... I mean I am an anarchist in morality, if not in practice. But know, you can know stuff about who you are supporting now. Namely, we are supporting Zelensky and the Ukranians, who have known neonazis in their ranks and as units, but by no means the majority of them.

And honestly, it's not even a surprise that they do: the Ukranians post the holodomor were pretty big fans of basically anyone fighting the Soviets. But this has real risks that must be considered. On top of that, we know that Biden's kid and almost certainly Biden himself was bought by Ukraine gas money. Yes, I'm suspicious.

More than that, we can know history, and know that America has a really shit history of backing good guys. But every time, it's been sold as if we are backing the good guys. Osama Bin Laden was a brave Mujahedeen until he wasn't. We protested Vietnam taking out Pol Pot, one of the only good actions by communism ever. We backed the Saudi's losing genocide in Yemen. Basically, America is shit at being the world police.

So now America comes hat in hand, claiming this time its different. This time, the guys a good person, and it's unjust aggression that we in no way caused, and surely there will be no bad consequences for it this time. Only they said the same thing about the Gulf of Tonkin and the Syrian Gas.

So no. I'm not willing to endlessly finance a war, without even also calling for a peace deal. Wars are some of the singularly most awful things humanity does, and I oppose them with every fiber of my being.
 
They are significantly better. Huge orders of magnitude better. You completely underestimate the costs of a planned, centrally controlled economy vs the simple mass theft in Russia today or whatever the fuck China has. Both are shockingly better. Note crucially the lack of mass starvation as a key indicator of this.
No, that's not necessarily sign of a much better system, just having more resources to waste before the population ends up starving and more international aid and trade being available to save their asses if they push a bit too far anyway. Even the bloody norks, despite keeping the worst of old commie system, merely balance on the edge of famine since 2 decades.
Same goes for much poorer than Russia and China countries with "whatever the fuck but lots of corruption" system, like Cuba, Venezuela, Egypt, and Syria at the beginning of the war.
Note that neither Soviets nor China had proper famines either since after they industrialized even when they had central economies.
 
My basic opinion re: the war, expressed better than I could ever hope to:

I made it farther than Bacle, to the part where the guy said:
When the Cold War ended and the Soviet government dissolved, the nuclear arsenals remained and so did the American interest in avoiding conflict that could bring about the end of the world as we know it. That's why there were agreements in those early days of the new era that Russia would not contest the reunification of Germany and its admittance into NATO. In exchange, American officials committed in writing that NATO would not extend, quote, one inch east, beyond the German border.

But he's wrong. There were no formal agreements like that, though there were assurances made by US diplomats to their Soviet counterparts. Wait, Soviet counterparts? Yes, because Germany reunified before the final dissolution of the USSR, not after it. When it was only Russia, the situation changed; NATO expansion happened, because there was no agreement not to and never was, only statements of intent, and this time the diplomatic assurances were over how fast and how far NATO would expand east, not whether it would at all.
Because your only option is to buy from the shady used car salesman! The reason you can get a good car is because you can choose who you buy from.
But, to continue the analogy, just because you can't trust the salesman doesn't mean every car on the lot is shit. We have eyes and brains and Russia's actions have been blatantly evil enough that we can draw some reliable conclusions. We know that this is not just another Afghanistan or Vietnam or whatever the fuck.
 
I made it farther than Bacle, to the part where the guy said:
When the Cold War ended and the Soviet government dissolved, the nuclear arsenals remained and so did the American interest in avoiding conflict that could bring about the end of the world as we know it. That's why there were agreements in those early days of the new era that Russia would not contest the reunification of Germany and its admittance into NATO. In exchange, American officials committed in writing that NATO would not extend, quote, one inch east, beyond the German border.

But he's wrong. There were no formal agreements like that, though there were assurances made by US diplomats to their Soviet counterparts. Wait, Soviet counterparts? Yes, because Germany reunified before the final dissolution of the USSR, not after it. When it was only Russia, the situation changed; NATO expansion happened, because there was no agreement not to and never was, only statements of intent, and this time the diplomatic assurances were over how fast and how far NATO would expand east, not whether it would at all.

But, to continue the analogy, just because you can't trust the salesman doesn't mean every car on the lot is shit. We have eyes and brains and Russia's actions have been blatantly evil enough that we can draw some reliable conclusions. We know that this is not just another Afghanistan or Vietnam or whatever the fuck.
What really amuses me is how in at least 80% of cases you spot someone who is for "peace", non-interventionism, isolationism and the like and cares about it a lot, if you grill them on the situation they want to argue for staying out of, it's almost never "yeah, godspeed to them, country X sucks, but it's not really our job to kick their asses and we get nothing out of helping make it happen", and it's almost always going to end up with a reveal of belief in various propaganda facts spread by country X or western far left and its pseudo-moralizing, implying that this conclusion is based on a foundation of garbage facts, rather than different, even if silly analysis of the real state of things.
See: The supposed genocide in Yemen, which is a humanitarian crisis caused by Saudi-Iranian proxy war, elevated to genocide in rhetoric of Iranian theocrats and western Sanders grade leftists (both favoring Iran's side in this conflict, duh) rather than any serious institutions.
 
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See, defending a country because it's the right thing is diffrent then bowing down because "not our buisness"
 
What people fail to understand is that all of this is just another step in something that has been going on for a long, long time. Just as during The Holodomor the Ukrainians of today were doomed to have this happen.
 

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