Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

[Agent23]

Moskva was out of date a decade before it was commissioned?

Construction was started in the early 70s.
I don't know what you would call up to date, but a ship designed and built 50 years ago that also enjoyed the shoddy maintenance of the 1990s isn't something I'd expect to be in anything like peak condition Also, you do realize that the shipyard that built them was in Ukraine, and probably a lot of the components were built there, too.
A now hostile country, and probably those industries have been mismanaged into the ground, cut for scrap, or blown up.

Frankly trying to patch up and upgrade something that old is counter-productive and it is better to start from a clean slate, with purely Russian-indigenous designs that are built from the ground up with advanced tech and design, like stealth capabilities, modern damage control and electric systems, etc.

 

[GoldRanger]

So what's Chiron's excuse for the Moscow? Lying Ukrainian propaganda, or just a special underwater operation? Maybe that the ship was obsolete and it's sinking was planned?

 

[GoldRanger]

I've just skimmed the thread, this is just too fucking embarrassing. Agent23 would've sounded more convincing if he at least acknowledged the glaringly obvious once in a blue moon, but those sheer mental acrobatics... Cringe.

 

[Vaermina]

Some people have ignored a net positive of the sinking of the Moskva, which is that it could become a niche tourist destination for divers years to come!

No... No it won't...

They are going to have to go down there and clean the wreck with a fine toothed comb before it's safe to do anything near it...

 

[ShadowArxxy]

And, P-1000 is an upgrade of P-500, P-1000 is over 30 years out of date, initially deployed in 83 iirc.

By that absurd argument, Russia's T-90 tanks are merely "upgrades" of the original T-34.

In any case, the P-700 Granit and P-800 Oniks are in fact also upgrades of the P-500, and even the vaunted Oniks isn't significantly newer than the "obsolete" Vulcan - the difference in in-service date reflects the disruptions caused by the fall of the Soviet Union, not by actually being a significantly newer design. The Kalibr is a "new" design lineage, but its actual design is again late-80s / early-90s, same as Oniks and Vulkan.

 

[Agent23]

By that absurd argument, Russia's T-90 tanks are merely "upgrades" of the original T-34.

T-90 is an upgrade of T-72, so false analogy.
In any case, Russia sees those tanks as insufficient and that is why the T-14 was developed.

In any case, the P-700 Granit and P-800 Oniks are in fact also upgrades of the P-500, and even the vaunted Oniks isn't significantly newer than the "obsolete" Vulcan - the difference in in-service date reflects the disruptions caused by the fall of the Soviet Union, not by actually being a significantly newer design. The Kalibr is a "new" design lineage, but its actual design is again late-80s / early-90s, same as Oniks and Vulkan.

P-700, P-800, Kalibr and Zircon are what all current generations of Russian surface ships and submarines are getting, so yeah, sounds like Russia is giving up on the P-1000.
Face it, Slava-class cruisers are past their prime and overdo for replacement.

 

[ATP]

China is looking at all of this and going............ We aren't gonna have any backup if we try to attack Taiwan are we???

No,according to what i read,their reaction is rather "Maybe instead of taking Taiwan now and waiting for Siberia next 20 years,we would take Siberia now and wait for Taiwan next 20 years" .
Becouse China politics was to wait for USA and Kgbstan to fall,and then grab what they want.Till now,they thought that USA would fall first,but they start changing their minds.

 

[paulobrito]

China looking at this and thinking - well prices of raw materials from Russia are going down, and quantities available going higher in the next years, and they are also going to buy more things from us. Profit.
That's what a pragmatic gov does, not silly things.

 

[ATP]

Of course he hasn't. I've never seen anyone who so blatantly ignores anything and everything that doesn't fit their preconceived notions. He tries to justify things that don't fit, but if he can't do that he'll literally just put his fingers in his ears and go "LA LA LA" like a toddler hoping to get out of bedtime.

He is average bulgarian,so he must belive in GREAT MOTHER RUSSIA which save him when turks come.Even if Russia was murdered long ago and replaced by soviets,it still do not matter.
Do not blame him,average poles are even worst,they belive in SAINT USA which save us from Moscov when they come,even after FDR and Yalta.

But,it all not matter - HAPPY EASTER,JESUS LIVES AND LOVE US !

 

[planefag]

Face it, Slava-class cruisers are past their prime and overdo for replacement.

Now do the B-52!

 

[The Original Sixth]

He is average bulgarian,so he must belive in GREAT MOTHER RUSSIA which save him when turks come.Even if Russia was murdered long ago and replaced by soviets,it still do not matter.
Do not blame him,average poles are even worst,they belive in SAINT USA which save us from Moscov when they come,even after FDR and Yalta.

But,it all not matter - HAPPY EASTER,JESUS LIVES AND LOVE US !

Eh, the Soviet Union did not murder Russia. Russia has always been a brutal dictatorship propped up by oligarchs or nobles. It has had that same system of government since the Mongols took over the place centuries ago. Governments tend to continue with the same system of government for centuries, even when new people rise to power. It's really more of an institutional problem. That outdated model of government is why Russia has suffered so much lately. It can't keep using that outdated model, but trying to change to a different model causes problems among the elites that hold Russia together.

This is pretty much Russia's last days as a great power. At this point, it might just be better for Putin to hammer the Ukrainians as much as possible on the western side, take all the land up to the Dnieper River, claim it was the plan all along, and call it a day. After the current display of military competence and logistics, it's obvious the Russians would get steamrolled if they tried this with a NATO country.

 

[ATP]

Eh, the Soviet Union did not murder Russia. Russia has always been a brutal dictatorship propped up by oligarchs or nobles. It has had that same system of government since the Mongols took over the place centuries ago. Governments tend to continue with the same system of government for centuries, even when new people rise to power. It's really more of an institutional problem. That outdated model of government is why Russia has suffered so much lately. It can't keep using that outdated model, but trying to change to a different model causes problems among the elites that hold Russia together.

This is pretty much Russia's last days as a great power. At this point, it might just be better for Putin to hammer the Ukrainians as much as possible on the western side, take all the land up to the Dnieper River, claim it was the plan all along, and call it a day. After the current display of military competence and logistics, it's obvious the Russians would get steamrolled if they tried this with a NATO country.

Mostly true,but german tsar take over and slowly changed them into relatively normal nation,which they were about 1917.Then Lenin kiled/exiled elites,Sralin genocided farmers,and turned rest into soviet people.Which are exactly the same like moscovites from Ivan terrible cowards times.
P.S Putin need nukes to take Dniepr river line.Without that,all he get would be Marjunpol and MAYBE Donieck.

 

[Zachowon]

Now do the B-52!

He can't.
Because it has been around so fucking long and actually has a combat record unlike the Moskow

 

[paulobrito]

He can't.
Because it has been around so fucking long and actually has a combat record unlike the Moskow

The equivalent/twin brother of the B-52 is the Tu-95. With the bonus of using turboprops.
Just my historical nerd side, don't care.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Now do the B-52!

T-90 tanks are basically based on early 1960's designs born out of improving the T-62. Even the first T-72 of which the T-90 is derived from was released in like 1969 so basically early Cold War tech. All of the tanks lost so far are basically expendable and a drain on Russian resources. The T-14 Armatas is going to replace them all as the flagship tank of the Russian army as is already planned. Same story with the T-80's based on even older designs. The Ukrainians and NATO are basically doing Russia's Spring Cleaning for them wasting those expensive ATGMs and laser guided artillery and drone strikes on obsolete, expendable armored vehicles.

 

[GoldRanger]

T-90 tanks are basically based on early 1960's designs born out of improving the T-62. Even the first T-72 of which the T-90 is derived from was released in like 1969 so basically early Cold War tech. All of the tanks lost so far are basically expendable and a drain on Russian resources. The T-14 Armatas is going to replace them all as the flagship tank of the Russian army as is already planned. Same story with the T-80's based on even older designs. The Ukrainians and NATO are basically doing Russia's Spring Cleaning for them wasting those expensive ATGMs and laser guided artillery and drone strikes on obsolete, expendable armored vehicles.

Russia can't afford the T-14 in anything but symbolic numbers, and in any case the design is unproven. As we have seen in the past month, a lot of aspects about the Russian military were vastly overhyped. The tech behind Armata may also prove as such.

 

[paulobrito]

The T-14 family is (officially) still in the low production phase/tests. Also, is a lot more expensive than the older designs. And, uses a lot more electronics (some probably not Russian made), so is a bit of both. On top of that, the actual 'Special Military Operation' in Ukraine showed that some improvements/upgrades are in dire need. Something related to top-attack weapons / automatic defenses against that, maybe?

 

[AnimalNoodles]

Now do the B-52!

Also past their prime. Useful against rattletrap 4th world militaries but not a near peer.

 

[The Original Sixth]

Mostly true,but german tsar take over and slowly changed them into relatively normal nation,which they were about 1917.Then Lenin kiled/exiled elites,Sralin genocided farmers,and turned rest into soviet people.Which are exactly the same like moscovites from Ivan terrible cowards times.
P.S Putin need nukes to take Dniepr river line.Without that,all he get would be Marjunpol and MAYBE Donieck.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Putin needs nuclear weapons to take the Dnieper River line, but his other option is to send waver after wave of troops until he grinds down the Ukrainian military. Given what I've seen in regards to Russian history, that is probably what he's going to favor. Russia has historically suffered massive losses in wars and most analysts seem to agree that Putin would probably need losses approaching a million before the Russian people begin to revolt.

 

[Zachowon]

The equivalent/twin brother of the B-52 is the Tu-95. With the bonus of using turboprops.
Just my historical nerd side, don't care.

The TU 95 is the same thing.
Stand off distance cruise missles.

Also past their prime. Useful against rattletrap 4th world militaries but not a near peer.

Same can be said of the bear