Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

[Agent23]

All of that is just generic "bad stuff that happens in every war by every side" stuff, it's inevitable. What you are alleging goes beyond that, because you were suggesting that happens as a matter of policy, not just that it happened somehow.

Really, did the USA murder Iraqui POWs gruesomely?

Sorry, but I do not buy that.

Video isn't working for me. Says the media is too big or some bullshit.

You need telegram for that.

 

[WolfBear]

Really, did the USA murder Iraqui POWs gruesomely?

Well, there was Abu Ghraib, but AFAIK, the people responsible for that were severely punished.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Yes... Because Telegram is full of Russian bots/plants pushing falsified Russian propaganda...

And all other media is pushing falsified Ukrainian propaganda, which is accepted as holy truth because State Department says so, while everything contrary to it is heavily suppressed.
And even then Telegram caved in to US demands to remove the official Russian channels and is certainly not doing anything to impede the pro-Ukrainian channels, not to mention that it is the main mode of sharing information for opposition in Russia in Belorussia, but I guess some people simply can't accept the fact that opposing side has a voice as well.

 

[Captain X]

 

[Agent23]

Well, there was Abu Ghraib, but AFAIK, the people responsible for that were severely punished.

Those were IIRC done by "private contractors" and the CIA, and the victims were alleged terrorists.

And the USA doesn't have a habit of jailing and torturing and killing internal dissidents, although the FBI has done some rather shady shit.

I am not trying to be apologetic for the Bush neocuck/neolibtard stupidity, just to say that the Ukrainian Zelenski regime is worse.
As are a lot of other places and regimes, tbh.

 

[strunkenwhite]

If you were the one running an occupation, and you decided that there are a bunch of people you need to kill would you just shoot them in the street?

I think the implicit claim that any occupation there was well-run needs to be substantiated rather than just assumed.

 

[Agent23]

I think the implicit claim that any occupation there was well-run needs to be substantiated rather than just assumed.

I think that you need to prove it wasn't more retarded than your average African warlord's militia, since this is what you are getting at.

 

[ATP]

I think that you need to prove it wasn't more retarded than your average African warlord's militia, since this is what you are getting at.

Current kgbstan armed forces behave like average warlord militia,and are almost as well trained as them.
You want in Mother Russia which once saved Bulgary and would now save world.Sorry,but Mother Russia was raped and murdered by soviets,and what we have now are soviet people ruled by KGB mafias.
They would not save anybody,even themselves.

We live in world where there is no longer good guys,only bad and much worst.Deal with it.

P.S kgbstan behave like soviets - why are you shocked? soviets are their idols.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Really, did the USA murder Iraqui POWs gruesomely?

Sorry, but I do not buy that.

Yeah, it happened a few times.

 

[Agent23]

Yeah, it happened a few times.

Well, the way Dubyah Junior and his war profiteer buddies led the war was hardly a high point for the USA.

 

[Zachowon]

I mean.
A few POWs is better then hundreds of non combatants

 

[Vaermina]

And all other media is pushing falsified Ukrainian propaganda, which is accepted as holy truth because State Department says so, while everything contrary to it is heavily suppressed.

And even then Telegram caved in to US demands to remove the official Russian channels and is certainly not doing anything to impede the pro-Ukrainian channels, not to mention that it is the main mode of sharing information for opposition in Russia in Belorussia, but I guess some people simply can't accept the fact that opposing side has a voice as well.

Only one country has made it actively illegal to tell the truth about the war.

And that country isn't the United States.

 

[strunkenwhite]

I think that you need to prove it wasn't more retarded than your average African warlord's militia, since this is what you are getting at.

An African warlord's militia might be doing that most of the time in most places. I'm saying this is a shitshow of irregular quality, where it probably didn't happen in plenty of places, but it did happen in some, because the soldiers are angry, mistreated, and fed propaganda against the people they're occupying; and what discipline exists is more aimed at keeping them together and going in the direction they're supposed (in this case, stay put and occupy the town) to than it is aimed at keeping them from indulging their worst urges. They can't punch up so they punch down.

Again, for the reports to be true this doesn't have to happen everywhere, it just has to happen somewhere. Why is it so hard for you to accept that it happened even in one place? That a Russian soldier would shoot someone he's been told is a Nazi, and then ask himself, "Why stop at one?"

Did you see the video captured of the armored unit firing on a bicyclist during the time of Russian control?—exactly where they found one of the bodies, next to a bicycle.

 

[Agent23]

An African warlord's militia might be doing that most of the time in most places. I'm saying this is a shitshow of irregular quality, where it probably didn't happen in plenty of places, but it did happen in some, because the soldiers are angry, mistreated, and fed propaganda against the people they're occupying; and what discipline exists is more aimed at keeping them together and going in the direction they're supposed (in this case, stay put and occupy the town) to than it is aimed at keeping them from indulging their worst urges. They can't punch up so they punch down.

Again, for the reports to be true this doesn't have to happen everywhere, it just has to happen somewhere. Why is it so hard for you to accept that it happened even in one place? That a Russian soldier would shoot someone he's been told is a Nazi, and then ask himself, "Why stop at one?"

Did you see the video captured of the armored unit firing on a bicyclist during the time of Russian control?—exactly where they found one of the bodies, next to a bicycle.

Sorry, this is just pointless whatabouism on your part.
We are dealing with a professional military with standards and a command chain that dislikes bad optics.
If that doesn't fit your preconception of them as cartoon villains then there are no fucks given on my part.

 

[Captain X]

There will come a time when you are no more able to deny these atrocities where committed by Russian soldiers than you are able to deny that Russia invaded Ukraine after weeks of claiming that was all Western propaganda.

 

[ATP]

Sorry, this is just pointless whatabouism on your part.
We are dealing with a professional military with standards and a command chain that dislikes bad optics.
If that doesn't fit your preconception of them as cartoon villains then there are no fucks given on my part.

Professional - partially.Standarts - certainly.
Problem is - that are SOVIET STANDARTS.Which mean,that rape and murdering cyvilians is norm.Just like it was norm for soviet army.Remember,those soviet was send there to DENAZIFY Ukraine.And why exactly soviet liberator could not kill nazi and rape his waif?

 

[WolfBear]

Honestly surprised Russia is doing as badly as it is.

There are two things, both of which are bad in excess: Russopessimism and Russotriumphalism.

Today's map, I find it interesting that the Mariupol forces are still directly contesting Russia's forces instead of going to ground and beginning the insurgency phase.

If Russia wanted Mariupol, it should have conquered it in 2014, assuming that it actually had the capacities for this.

 

[planefag]

Also, we are dealing with a nazi regime that is perfectly happy to disappear people, torture and brutally murder POWs, and the like.

Nazi regime, led by a Jew.

This stupid cocksucker is a one-man argument against universal suffrage.

 

[Agent23]

Professional - partially.Standarts - certainly.
Problem is - that are SOVIET STANDARTS.Which mean,that rape and murdering cyvilians is norm.Just like it was norm for soviet army.Remember,those soviet was send there to DENAZIFY Ukraine.And why exactly soviet liberator could not kill nazi and rape his waif?

You do realize that things changed significantly since Stalinism was a thing, and that the Russian army is pretty far from the shtrafbats, commissars and 4 years bloody warfare without lieve Red Army that went into Western Europe, right?
Personally I haven't heard of the Russian military doing something like what you and Stunk are trying to attribute to them in Syria.
And besides, I am pretty sure all of the Russian high command knows what optics are, even though they are boomers.

 

[strunkenwhite]

Sorry, this is just pointless whatabouism on your part.
We are dealing with a professional military with standards and a command chain that dislikes bad optics.
If that doesn't fit your preconception of them as cartoon villains then there are no fucks given on my part.

It's not whataboutism to say "what about the direct evidence of the claim I'm making?" Like, I don't even know what else to say. The accusation of whataboutism seems so mind-numbingly stupid. Maybe I'm missing something.

Dislikes bad optics? Would it be fair, then, to say you strongly disagree with the other Russia apologists who have been bragging that Russia is taking the gloves off and Ukrainian cities won't have one brick laid atop another?

edit: let me give you some examples of how I understand the term whataboutism, in order from least to most ridiculous:
1. You shouldn't single out (A) for condemnation for doing this bad thing because everyone else does the same bad thing.
2. You shouldn't condemn (A) for doing this bad thing because (B) does the same bad thing.
3. (A) doing bad things isn't so bad because other bad things also happen.
4. Hey look a distraction!

I don't see how anything in my other post could even hypothetically be whataboutism.