Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

[Battlegrinder]

Yeah, sure, like the Kuwaiti Incubators, the Iraqui WMDs, the Tonkin Gulf incident.

No, not like those, in fact. The first two were just propaganda inventions, they never happened and the dispute at the time, if any, was if they did happen at all (The Gulf incident was two attacks, one of which did happen and one of which didn't, but I think the 2nd attack is more "jumping at shadows in the fog of war" then just a pure invention).

Scott admits Bucha happened, that lots of people were murdered and gunned down, he doesn't contest that in the least. What he claims is that it wasn't Russia who did it. Coming to his defense with "actually, all those pictures are lies, nothing happened at all" doesn't actually defend him, and given your list of examples is just another case of Russiaboos scrambling to go "but what about the west?" (because of course there's plenty of other infamous wartime lies you could have picked, but you only seized on the ones told by the US).

It's also another case where you lot can not keep your story straight, because you're not looking at the evidence and drawing a conclusion, you're starting from the conclusion and looking to backfill it with evidence, hence why you and Scott have a radically different opinion of what happened in Bucha but identical conclusions, namely that Russia Did Nothing Wrong.

 

[Agent23]

No, not like those, in fact. The first two were just propaganda inventions, they never happened and the dispute at the time, if any, was if they did happen at all (The Gulf incident was two attacks, one of which did happen and one of which didn't, but I think the 2nd attack is more "jumping at shadows in the fog of war" then just a pure invention).

Scott admits Bucha happened, that lots of people were murdered and gunned down, he doesn't contest that in the least. What he claims is that it wasn't Russia who did it. Coming to his defense with "actually, all those pictures are lies, nothing happened at all" doesn't actually defend him, and given your list of examples is just another case of Russiaboos scrambling to go "but what about the west?" (because of course there's plenty of other infamous wartime lies you could have picked, but you only seized on the ones told by the US).

It's also another case where you lot can not keep your story straight, because you're not looking at the evidence and drawing a conclusion, you're starting from the conclusion and looking to backfill it with evidence, hence why you and Scott have a radically different opinion of what happened in Bucha but identical conclusions, namely that Russia Did Nothing Wrong.

I am not saying that people weren't killed, I am saying that they were not killed during the Russian occupation of the area.
Don't you think that if there was some bizzare public execution 3-4 weeks ago the videos wouldn't have leaked, or that the mayor wouldn't have said something?

Also, we are dealing with a nazi regime that is perfectly happy to disappear people, torture and brutally murder POWs, and the like.

Sorry, but them shooting some "undesirables", perhaps people who they saw as collaborators, then pinning it on the Russians is perfectly logical.

 

[Vaermina]

I am not saying that people weren't killed, I am saying that they were not killed during the Russian occupation of the area.

Germany literally has communication intercepts of Russian soldiers admitting to it.

Don't you think that if there was some bizzare public execution 3-4 weeks ago the videos wouldn't have leaked, or that the mayor wouldn't have said something?

Video's taken how? Video's leaked how? The Mayor would have said something how?

Also, we are dealing with a nazi regime that is perfectly happy to disappear people, torture and brutally murder POWs, and the like.

Yes, and that regime is Russia.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Don't you think that if there was some bizzare public execution 3-4 weeks ago the videos wouldn't have leaked, or that the mayor wouldn't have said something?

We don't know exactly when the Russians started shooting people or under what circumstances.

Also, we are dealing with a nazi regime that is perfectly happy to disappear people, torture and brutally murder POWs, and the like.

Ukraine doesn't disappear people to my knowledge, nor are POWs are mistreated as a matter of policy (it certainly happens, it's inevitable in any way, but it's Ukrainian policy to discourage this kind of thing).

Sorry, but them shooting some "undesirables", perhaps people who they saw as collaborators, then pinning it on the Russians is perfectly logical.

These accounts goe well beyond a handful of collaborators and I think you know that. If you've done enough reading to trying and refute it because of some random bloodstain somewhere, then you shod have known what's actually been claimed.

Furthermore, Ukraine has very good reasons not to that, given they're dependant on outside support and something like this would jeopardize that, whereas actually going in and openly arresting, trying, and executing collaborators would probably not.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

The CIA is still butthurt he gave the game away when he protested against them using his weapons inspections as cover.

The CIA was serving America's best interests, whereas Ritter quite clearly transferred his loyalty from the United States to the United Nations at some point. Making him morally a traitor even if not legally so.

 

[Agent23]

We don't know exactly when the Russians started shooting people or under what circumstances.



Ukraine doesn't disappear people to my knowledge, nor are POWs are mistreated as a matter of policy (it certainly happens, it's inevitable in any way, but it's Ukrainian policy to discourage this kind of thing).



These accounts goe well beyond a handful of collaborators and I think you know that. If you've done enough reading to trying and refute it because of some random bloodstain somewhere, then you shod have known what's actually been claimed.

Furthermore, Ukraine has very good reasons not to that, given they're dependant on outside support and something like this would jeopardize that, whereas actually going in and openly arresting, trying, and executing collaborators would probably not.

Ukraine has banned all opposition and closed down their press, the Zelenski thugs have killed or disappeared several mayors, a bunch of journalists and bloggers, and even one person from their own negotiation team.
Hell, they tortured an MMA fighter because he had trained with the Chechens and was recorded on video saying Ahmat Sila.
Sorry, dude, but those people are thugs.

 

[Agent23]

The CIA was serving America's best interests, whereas Ritter quite clearly transferred his loyalty from the United States to the United Nations at some point. Making him morally a traitor even if not legally so.

He was no longer a uniformed member of the US armed forces and employed by the UN to do a job.The CIA was interfering with that job.
I do not see him fighting against their attempt to use him and the UN as a smoke screen to do whatever as treason, he tried to keep the inspections going.Inspections that I am pretty sure were signed off on by the US government as well.
Sorry, but you have no leg to stand on, morally.

 

[The Original Sixth]

The CIA was serving America's best interests, whereas Ritter quite clearly transferred his loyalty from the United States to the United Nations at some point. Making him morally a traitor even if not legally so.

Not to defend Ritter at all, but invading Iraq was not serving American interests. You don't serve American interests by lying about the purpose of an invasion that gets American men and women killed. In fact, I would argue that given that America is for the people, by the people--that lying to the public is in fact, a betrayal of one's oath and office. The CIA was serving the Bush Admin's interests and the desire to replace foreign leaders because we don't like them. It's one thing if the Bush Admin came forward and said "Hey, this guy is a tyrant and we should take him out for the betterment of Iraq and mankind." but instead chose the "Hey, he's got WOMD!"

Ritter was absolutely RIGHT to call the Bush admin out on that. The fact that he's a slimeball who chases after 15-16 year old tail is besides the point.

The sperging overreactions of some US and (more-so thanks to their long-existing fuck-fucking with speech) European governments (and corporations) to Russia-sympathetic or Russia-simping stuff is silly, probably counterproductive, and in violation of a higher principle of speech and information-flow (or, at least, alleged information exposure) that's even more important in wartime. They shouldn't be doing it and that they are speaks ill of them.

We've seen this play before.

It's not so much an overreaction as it is a political fight. The far-right has a common cause with the Russians; to keep America out of Europe and foreign wars (sans China). To have an America that primarily isolationist in outlook. The Russians were very happy with the Trump Admin and had hoped for another four years. The reason why the far-right platforms and the Russians have very similar outlooks on this war is because they both want America out of the war. This is contrary to what the neo-libs and neo-conservatives want, and even the somewhat far left. In a sense, the far-right is horribly outgunned here.

So we see lots of bullshit Ukraine propaganda (Ghost of Kiev BS), all the Ukrainian victories, and the heroic platitudes of the Ukrainians broadcasted and tailored to an American and Western audience in a way I've never seen before. That gives Biden more political support to hit Russia with sanctions that will hurt the American economy and supply Ukraine with millions of dollars in US/NATO weapons.

That said, RT and the Russia-affiliated stuff is about as reliable as MSNBC or CNN or any of a hundred random twitter-posters who pasted a blue and yellow flag into their nametag and spout mirror-image BS about the situation.
...THough the latter do have somewhat the benefit of novelty since we haven't been hearing about the supreme greatness of Ukrainian military operations and leadership for the last two decades, whereas with Russia...There've been simping dummies for them in the states since they were still top-dog in the USSR.

RT is as reliable as the Russian government allows it to be. And in regards to the massacre. In my mind, there is really only two possibilities. The first is that there was a brutal fight in the region and bystanders ended up getting killed in the fighting. That's possible, though I find it somewhat unlikely if what we're hearing is true. If what we're hearing is true, then it's likely that the Russians committed the war crime themselves. The Ukrainians doing this, to their own people, makes no sense. Even if they thought they were aiding the Russians, this makes no sense. Killing so many people and risking it getting out to the wider world? The US/NATO military aid would dry up faster than a woman's hooch at a Male Feminist Convention.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Ukraine has banned all opposition and closed down their press, the Zelenski thugs have killed or disappeared several mayors, a bunch of journalists and bloggers, and even one person from their own negotiation team.
Hell, they tortured an MMA fighter because he had trained with the Chechens and was recorded on video saying Ahmat Sila.
Sorry, dude, but those people are thugs.

I'm aware Zelensky banned opposition parties on the basis of them being basically Russian proxies, don't know if that's true or just political opportunism, could be either way. But he just banned the parties, as far as I know he didn't arrest their leaderships or act against there personal in any way.

I want sources for the rest of that.

Not to defend Ritter at all, but invading Iraq was not serving American interests. You don't serve American interests by lying about the purpose of an invasion that gets American men and women killed. In fact, I would argue that given that America is for the people, by the people--that lying to the public is in fact, a betrayal of one's oath and office. The CIA was serving the Bush Admin's interests and the desire to replace foreign leaders because we don't like them. It's one thing if the Bush Admin came forward and said "Hey, this guy is a tyrant and we should take him out for the betterment of Iraq and mankind." but instead chose the "Hey, he's got WOMD!"

Ritter was absolutely RIGHT to call the Bush admin out on that. The fact that he's a slimeball who chases after 15-16 year old tail is besides the point.

I think you might be off a bit on your timeline there, per wiki his issue with the CIA was in the late 90s, not the early 2000s.

 

[The Original Sixth]

I'm aware Zelensky banned opposition parties on the basis of them being basically Russian proxies, don't know if that's true or just political opportunism, could be either way. But he just banned the parties, as far as I know he didn't arrest their leaderships or act against there personal in any way.

I want sources for the rest of that.

To be fair to Zelensky (and I have no love for the man), that's probably SOP when a foreign power invades your land and there are parties siding with the invader. I can promise you that the US would do the same in a heartbeat. Hell, we did worse with interment camps for Japanese citizens during WWII.

I think you might be off a bit on your timeline there, per wiki his issue with the CIA was in the late 90s, not the early 2000s.

Possibly, but my point holds. Regardless of Ritter's current trustworthiness, accusing him of being a traitor because he wouldn't go along with the Bush Admin's lie about WOMD is ridiculous. The Bush Admin should never have lied to the public about Iraq. Honestly, Bush should have been impeached for that.

 

[Agent23]

I'm aware Zelensky banned opposition parties on the basis of them being basically Russian proxies, don't know if that's true or just political opportunism, could be either way. But he just banned the parties, as far as I know he didn't arrest their leaderships or act against there personal in any way.

I want sources for the rest of that.

Take a look at CRP's channel as well as intel slava z, the videos of POWs getting shot and tortured as well as images of Zelenski thugs turturing and intimidating people are all over telegram.
I have posted them on a few occasions,as has chiron, only for some posters here to blow them off.

Spoiler: the tortured MMA figheter

GRAPHIC: Ukrainian MMA Fighter Allegedly Tortured By Extremists

Ukrainian MMA fighter Maxim Ryndovskiy is reportedly being held hostage and tortured by Ukrainian nationalists for his involvement with Chechen MMA and

www.mmanews.com

Spoiler: POWs shot

Ukraine to probe after videos show alleged Russian POWs shot, abused

One clip shows what appear to be Ukrainian troops removing three Russian soldiers from a van before seconds later, the detainees were shot in the legs.

nypost.com

 

[Vaermina]

Take a look at CRP's channel as well as intel slava z, the videos of POWs getting shot and tortured as well as images of Zelenski thugs turturing and intimidating people are all over telegram.

I have posted them on a few occasions,as has chiron, only for some posters here to blow them off.

Yes... Because Telegram is full of Russian bots/plants pushing falsified Russian propaganda...

 

[The Original Sixth]

Take a look at CRP's channel as well as intel slava z, the videos of POWs getting shot and tortured as well as images of Zelenski thugs turturing and intimidating people are all over telegram.
I have posted them on a few occasions,as has chiron, only for some posters here to blow them off.

Spoiler: the tortured MMA figheter

GRAPHIC: Ukrainian MMA Fighter Allegedly Tortured By Extremists

Ukrainian MMA fighter Maxim Ryndovskiy is reportedly being held hostage and tortured by Ukrainian nationalists for his involvement with Chechen MMA and

www.mmanews.com

Spoiler: POWs shot

Ukraine to probe after videos show alleged Russian POWs shot, abused

One clip shows what appear to be Ukrainian troops removing three Russian soldiers from a van before seconds later, the detainees were shot in the legs.

nypost.com

Video isn't working for me. Says the media is too big or some bullshit.

 

[Captain X]

It's not so much an overreaction as it is a political fight. The far-right has a common cause with the Russians; to keep America out of Europe and foreign wars (sans China). To have an America that primarily isolationist in outlook. The Russians were very happy with the Trump Admin and had hoped for another four years. The reason why the far-right platforms and the Russians have very similar outlooks on this war is because they both want America out of the war.

Uh... What? Russia wants America out of this war for the same reason(s) BLM and Antifa want to get rid of the police. Everything else that the right-wingers/conservatives who are simping for Russia think they have in common with Russia is mainly in their own heads, and only based on the fact that Putin has come down on the alphabet people. There's also the revival of their orthodox religion, but as it turns out, their religious leaders are only a mouthpiece for their tyrannical government anyway. In every other way, Putin acts very much like the leftist leaders we have here.

 

[The Original Sixth]

Uh... What? Russia wants America out of this war for the same reason(s) BLM and Antifa want to get rid of the police. Everything else that the right-wingers/conservatives who are simping for Russia think they have in common with Russia is mainly in their own heads, and only based on the fact that Putin has come down on the alphabet people. There's also the revival of their orthodox religion, but as it turns out, their religious leaders are only a mouthpiece for their tyrannical government anyway. In every other way, Putin acts very much like the leftist leaders we have here.

Right. They have a common cause. What motivates them is entirely different. And the effort for both groups is not going well right now.

 

[Vaermina]

 

[JagerIV]

It's not so much an overreaction as it is a political fight. The far-right has a common cause with the Russians; to keep America out of Europe and foreign wars (sans China). To have an America that primarily isolationist in outlook. The Russians were very happy with the Trump Admin and had hoped for another four years. The reason why the far-right platforms and the Russians have very similar outlooks on this war is because they both want America out of the war. This is contrary to what the neo-libs and neo-conservatives want, and even the somewhat far left. In a sense, the far-right is horribly outgunned here.

Yeah, this isn't the Sudan or Ethiopian civil war where most people don't really have a dog in this fight, and thus mostly can discuss it with some degree of rational detachment: just about everyone has something at stake in this conflict, and humans being human are going to default to a lot of emotional reasoning about their pet issue.

Since this hits so many different issues, that also complicates any argument because people's issues hit this at so many different levels: there's a raw anti American, or at least an anti GAE (Global American Empire, which I generally understand to be more specifically an anti the cosmopolitan globalist elite of the world order in general, rather than anti coke guns and cowboys) level, there's the level of whether spheres of influences are a thing and Russia should have one, and what sphere of influence actually mean, and then there's the purely military is Russia using a good strategy and winning/losing level. And even more esoteric issues of European self rule, are the Russians brother Europeans or not, and other jazz.

If we were talking about, say, Afghanistan, generally the assumption would be most critisms of the US military performance there is not motivated from a pro-Taliban perspective, but that there is an honest belief that the US military did not do militarily well in Afghanistan. Emotions run hot and people are very invested in that question, but there's general understanding that that is the question.

Instead, any critism of analysis of the current state of the war can just get immediately shut down as pro Russian propaganda, and its immediately devolves into accusations over the true motive of the person asking a question, rather than dealing with the question.

And at this point fog of war is probably so thick its hard to tell. Just as it wasn't obvious how badly the War in Afghanistan was actually going which then highlighted which works were actually giving a realistic assessment of the battle.

 

[Marnuplee]

Spoiler: pow shot video

 

[Battlegrinder]

Take a look at CRP's channel as well as intel slava z, the videos of POWs getting shot and tortured as well as images of Zelenski thugs turturing and intimidating people are all over telegram.
I have posted them on a few occasions,as has chiron, only for some posters here to blow them off.

Spoiler: the tortured MMA figheter

GRAPHIC: Ukrainian MMA Fighter Allegedly Tortured By Extremists

Ukrainian MMA fighter Maxim Ryndovskiy is reportedly being held hostage and tortured by Ukrainian nationalists for his involvement with Chechen MMA and

www.mmanews.com

Spoiler: POWs shot

Ukraine to probe after videos show alleged Russian POWs shot, abused

One clip shows what appear to be Ukrainian troops removing three Russian soldiers from a van before seconds later, the detainees were shot in the legs.

nypost.com

All of that is just generic "bad stuff that happens in every war by every side" stuff, it's inevitable. What you are alleging goes beyond that, because you were suggesting that happens as a matter of policy, not just that it happened somehow.

 

[Captain X]

Spurred by Putin, Russians Turn on One Another Over the War (Published 2022)

Citizens are denouncing one another, illustrating how the war is feeding paranoia and polarization in Russian society.

www.nytimes.com

So Putin is acting in exactly the same way as the leftists here, like I said. He's treating the anti-war protestors there the exact same way Trudeau treated those truckers.