Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

[Largo]

Try much colder. I've been stranded in a car without heat during a snowstorm when it was -2F.

49F is shorts and t-shirt weather.

I'm pretty sure you weren't wet inside your car. Being wet and cold is much more dangerous than just being cold. A basic example is that 49F outside may be fine, but swimming in 50F water will straight up kill you no matter how tough you are. No one's going to claim that the Russians will all freeze to death, but yes, people are going to be more miserable under such conditions. This is obvious.

Ukraine is basically a frankenstein's monster brought together by the Germans and the Commies, it was a de fact dualistic state with two major languages, not one, and a bunch of other, smaller and repressed ethnic groups that came in with territory acquisitions from neighboring countries, the place has existed as an actual "autonomous" country for less than 32 years, so it is likely that the Russian intervention and the eonomic damage, and the incompetence and brutality of the nationalists will turn a lot more regions against them, and a bunch of "Russian-speakers" will once again start identifying themselves as Russians.

The Southern United States existed as a country for four years, and yet Southern nationalism was a real thing which lasted for 100 years give or take. And pretty much every nation ever is a frankenstein's monster of different regions brought together under a common identity.

Like, whatever you think about Ukraine, there is no doubt that what Ukraine is going through is a pretty vicious thing. This is the sort of thing which forges a nation, even if one may not have existed before. Valley Forge for the US. The Battle of Kosovo for Serbia. Being humiliated by the West for China and Japan. Common suffering is one of the keys in binding a nation together. Russia of all countries should know this.

 

[Zachowon]

Winning every battle?

You financed a coup in Egypt in 1952 and the putschits took your money and told you to go to hell after that.

You couldn't win against Communist rice farmers in North Korea and China, two backwater nations.

You couldn't keep South Vietnam out of North Vietnam's hands, a backwater nations.

Your puppet in Cambodia lost to genocidal forest and countryside dwellers.

You bombed the hell out of Laos and you still lost.

You went to Lebannon and had to get out for pressure at the homefront.

It took you 24 years for your side to sign a peace accord in a genocidal war in Guatemala.

You demolished Iraq's Saddam and now they are closer to Iran.

Your worst enemy was hiding in Pakistan, and the fight still went on in Afghanistan after you killed him and you went running tail between your legs, showing you guys are very comfortable at being thrown under the bus for a potato head.

You tried to regime change in Syria with the Saudis and other totalitarian theocratic parasites and you miserably failed only holding certain parts of the country. And they are closer to Iran and Russia now.

Meanwhile Russia is confronting a 40 million nation with at least twenty nation backing them.

You managed to loose EVEN against third world countries.

Okay.
How many of these were military battles?
Because Vietnam was literally the US on the dominant foot and even had a ceasefire happen because of how good we were doing.

We were never on the backfoot against the Taliban and were so damn good we pushed then back and damn near wiped then out every time they made a large resurgence. They fled to a nuclear state to avoid death.

I mean Iraq is basically just a missle dumping ground for Iran at this point.

We also decimated Iraq twice within 15 years and destroyed them horribly.

Every thing you mentioned us the political war being lost while the military was thrown under the bus and has its reputation ruined by the politicians

 

[Zachowon]

I had frostbite and almost lost two toes.

Were you wet and cold?
Because being wet and cold in anything below 50 is deadly.
I cam assure you from experience in the field

 

[bintananth]

Were you wet and cold?
Because being wet and cold in anything below 50 is deadly.
I cam assure you from experience in the field

45F-55F and pouring down rain is what I call a nice spring day.

 

[bintananth]

@Zachowon

Winning all the battles doesn't mean you won the war. Go look up "Pyrrhic Victory" when you get the chance.

The phrase predates Jesus.

 

[Carrot of Truth]

Not only that, but Serbian Airforce survived intact and conducted 300 sorties in support of its ground troops. The Ground Forces were barely touched by the bombings. And the Serbian Airforce inflicted massive virtual attrition on the NATO forces, causing most pilots to dump ordinance and evade. Also the Serbians shot down a lot of NATO drones as well.

If Milosevic had kept his nerve, NATO would have run out of bombs and serviceable aircraft and been forced to pause the bombings in just a few more days.

Milosevic would of ran the risk of a real US led intervention and he knew it, Although a world without the mistake of god that is Serbia is a good thing.

 

[Battlegrinder]

@Zachowon

Winning all the battles doesn't mean you won the war. Go look up "Pyrrhic Victory" when you get the chance.

The phrase predates Jesus.

A pyrrhic victory refers to winning a battle, but taking such heavy loses in doing so you might as well have lost. It does not refer to winning extremely one sided engagements in the field and then the war being ended because a political decision was reached to stop.

 

[Bacle]

A pyrrhic victory refers to winning a battle, but taking such heavy loses in doing so you might as well have lost. It does not refer to winning extremely one sided engagements in the field and then the war being ended because a political decision was reached to stop.

Yet either way, the lives expended in pursuit of said goal have effectively been wasted.

Because that is the truth many on the Right do not like to admit; the lives of our troops were wasted in that conflict, and thier sacrifices rendered pretty much moot by the actions of people in DC.

Same thing happened in Vietnam, and A-stan; lots of lives were lost for what ultimately amounted to little or no gain in the long run.

They teach soldiers that they are fighting and dying for the people to thier left and right, because they do not want troops thinking to much about whether the lives of thier friends are being wasted for fruitless or futile political objectives.

 

[Zachowon]

45F-55F and pouring down rain is what I call a nice spring day.

Now stay out there for hours on end in heavy work clothes

 

[bintananth]

A pyrrhic victory refers to winning a battle, but taking such heavy loses in doing so you might as well have lost. It does not refer to winning extremely one sided engagements in the field and then the war being ended because a political decision was reached to stop.

There's a whole lot more to modern war than the casualty list.

Take the British after WWII for example. Yes, they were on the winning side but were so exhausted that the British Empire collapsed shortly afterwards.

 

[bintananth]

Now stay out there for hours on end in heavy work clothes

Am I allowed to wear my trench coat?

If yes: not a problem because it's over a century old and waterproof.

If no: I'll just be soaked and mildly annoyed.

 

[Agent23]

I'm pretty sure you weren't wet inside your car. Being wet and cold is much more dangerous than just being cold. A basic example is that 49F outside may be fine, but swimming in 50F water will straight up kill you no matter how tough you are. No one's going to claim that the Russians will all freeze to death, but yes, people are going to be more miserable under such conditions. This is obvious.

I walked through such weather to go to school, btw, and I am pretty sure most of the Russian soldiers had to suffer through worse.

The Southern United States existed as a country for four years, and yet Southern nationalism was a real thing which lasted for 100 years give or take. And pretty much every nation ever is a frankenstein's monster of different regions brought together under a common identity.

Like, whatever you think about Ukraine, there is no doubt that what Ukraine is going through is a pretty vicious thing. This is the sort of thing which forges a nation, even if one may not have existed before. Valley Forge for the US. The Battle of Kosovo for Serbia. Being humiliated by the West for China and Japan. Common suffering is one of the keys in binding a nation together. Russia of all countries should know this.

Um, yeah, not exactly, those places were IIRC according to Black Rednecks and White Liberals, colonized from specific parts of the British Isles and they brought their social hierarchy, dialect and outlook to the colonies.
Second sons of aristocrats, former soldiers, various lower class profiteers out to make a quick buck, and they were separate colonies and states with far more autonomy than your average Russian Imperial governorate.
Also, the south was more of a distinct cultural unit, whileas the Ukraine was not, it was built up from pieces of Poland, pieces of Russia, and smaller bits from Romania, Hungary, etc.

 

[sillygoose]

There's a whole lot more to modern war than the casualty list.

Take the British after WWII for example. Yes, they were on the winning side but were so exhausted that the British Empire collapsed shortly afterwards.

That was just as much due to US demands for the end of imperial preference and leveraging of economic aid to get the British to pull out of places, as well as trends that had been building since before the war. Even if they had the finances and without WW2 losses I'm not sure Britain had the power to retain its empire after a certain point. See how hard France tried with US financing and support to hold their empire and that fell apart despite massive losses to the insurgencies.

 

[Battlegrinder]

There's a whole lot more to modern war than the casualty list.

Take the British after WWII for example. Yes, they were on the winning side but were so exhausted that the British Empire collapsed shortly afterwards.

I would have a much easier time accepting that redefinition of "phyrric victory" if not for the fact the new definition you're using is clearly the product of russiaboo cope trying to prove that hey, elite first rate armies like the one they totally have get dunked on by inferior armies all the time and Russia having a bad time in Ukraine means nothing.

However, as this concept is clearly just russiaboo cope, I'm not really going to entertain the idea. A phyrric victory refers to military engages and the loses inflicted on military forces in those engagements, and nothing else.

 

[bintananth]

I would have a much easier time accepting that redefinition of "phyrric victory" if not for the fact the new definition you're using is clearly the product of russiaboo cope trying to prove that hey, elite first rate armies like the one they totally have get dunked on by inferior armies all the time and Russia having a bad time in Ukraine means nothing.

However, as this concept is clearly just russiaboo cope, I'm not really going to entertain the idea. A phyrric victory refers to military engages and the loses inflicted on military forces in those engagements, and nothing else.

Where the heck did you get the idea that I was a "russiaboo"?

 

[Zachowon]

@Zachowon

Winning all the battles doesn't mean you won the war. Go look up "Pyrrhic Victory" when you get the chance.

The phrase predates Jesus.

No.
Winning all the battles just for you to he told "We lost" when you have suffered less casualties then your enemy. When you jave literally been unopposed by any heavy means and have wiped out entire groups only for them to come back seasonally is called Poltical Ass kissing and Butt Saving.

 

[Zachowon]

Am I allowed to wear my trench coat?

If yes: not a problem because it's over a century old and waterproof.

If no: I'll just be soaked and mildly annoyed.

Wear the type of clothes the Ruskies are wearing.
Combat gear like that is not the lightest in the world and it gets heavy and stays wet most of the time, especially when encased on mud.
But you wouldn't know would you

 

[bintananth]

Wear the type of clothes the Ruskies are wearing.
Combat gear like that is not the lightest in the world and it gets heavy and stays wet most of the time, especially when encased on mud.
But you wouldn't know would you

No, I wouldn't know firsthand. A quick search says 33lbs.

My trench coat probably weighs 6-7lbs all by itself.

EDIT: I just weighed it (8lbs) and my engineering field kit (46lbs).

 

[Battlegrinder]

Where the heck did you get the idea that I was a "russiaboo"?

I didn't mean you in particular, rather the larger "stop saying russia is doing badly in Ukraine, because [insert ludicrous contrivance suggesting the US was defeated in war], your country doesn't know how to win anything" narrative that keeps popping up and your post tied into.

 

[bintananth]

I didn't mean you in particular, rather the larger "stop saying russia is doing badly in Ukraine, because [insert ludicrous contrivance suggesting the US was defeated in war], your country doesn't know how to win anything" narrative that keeps popping up and your post tied into.

Ah, ok.