United States Another Suicidal Democrat Maneuver: Relief Bill Blocked

[prinCZess]

I genuinely have no idea what the DNC's strategy is right now.

I would forward that Nancy Pelosi is not the master-legislator the PR-machine built her into.
She, apparently, looked at previous Republican intransigence during debt ceiling negotiations and government shutdowns, and only took a lesson about using large and momentous pieces of legislation for leverage (see impeachment before this as another example) without noting the legitimate support Republicans maintained in their base during such maneuvers. The Democrat base, besides already having some fractures in it from other matters, is not nearly as receptive to that style of political maneuver--partially out of preexisting inclination, and partially because Democrats spent a good while decrying it and presenting it as self-interested power-seeking. It's hard to Uno reverse-card that portrayal when the crisis at hand is actually much, much larger than an impeachment bill procedural thing or even a government-shutdown funding bill.

Worse. I think we're going to see a landslide at least as large as 1984. Once we hit the economic rebound after the virus mess dies, Trump is going to get another boost to popularity, and he's going to be able to campaign on how he warned everybody about China.

That does presume an economic rebound. While the virus itself is certainly an outside shock, it's a large enough one that--at least to my non-economist understanding--the 'fundamentals' of the stock market and general economic activity could be lastingly affected, or, at least, affected significantly enough that things don't rebound by a November election.
Dunnow how likely either scenario is, but I personally guesstimate them as equally-likely at this point.

That said...absent the economic factor, the political momentum (at the moment) seems like it favors Trump and Co. Between this business with Pelosi and Biden's invisibility in the public eye, if it isn't the end of the world it gives El Presidente a big lane of 'I handled the crisis', and the counterpush to that runs into the same 'you're against the country's recovery' problem in perception as foreign policy and wars used to bring in Democrat-Republican matchups.
*sigh* What a goatrope.

 

[Deleted member]

"Don't waste the crisis" say Dems. To quoeth: "Democrats, please don't waste the coronavirus crisis. Hold out for what Americans need. "

So in the meantime due to the total incompetence of the response--driven largely by the kind of government bureaucracy which democrats love to over-regulate (the CDC)--there is no effective testing at all in my home state and my wife is presumptively sick with this, and now my sister is too, and there's no way to test them or anyone else in my household. Remember, that's not Trump's fault, that's the fault of manifest incompetency at a government bureaucracy. And the Dems' other big concern at the moment is adding more regulation to the US, as if it's ever helped or solved anything.

 

[Tzeentchean Perspective]

USAtoday editors hoping there won't be a USA tomorrow.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

That does presume an economic rebound. While the virus itself is certainly an outside shock, it's a large enough one that--at least to my non-economist understanding--the 'fundamentals' of the stock market and general economic activity could be lastingly affected, or, at least, affected significantly enough that things don't rebound by a November election.
Dunnow how likely either scenario is, but I personally guesstimate them as equally-likely at this point.

Ehh, I was watching the market a bit today and the Dow went from like 17k and change to nearly 19 in the span of about three hours. I stopped watching it after that, so no idea how the day closed. Irregardless, in times of crisis people usually opt to stick to what they know. This was part of the reason why FDR was able to become the dictator he became, because people were too scared and desperate to risk anything on change.

Well, that and the one guy who could have swayed the masses was even worse than him and got killed any way.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Worse. I think we're going to see a landslide at least as large as 1984. Once we hit the economic rebound after the virus mess dies, Trump is going to get another boost to popularity, and he's going to be able to campaign on how he warned everybody about China.

If Trump plays his cards right, and he's proven to not be a fool, he can provide at least the most crushing Republican victory since 1984. And then he can use the coronavirus to beat the American Left senseless and punish the People's Republic of China for this mess. Hell, the Nationalist Right has a cudgel to smack the Left over the head with for the next hundred years now.

 

[S'task]

If Trump plays his cards right, and he's proven to not be a fool, he can provide at least the most crushing Republican victory since 1984. And then he can use the coronavirus to beat the American Left senseless and punish the People's Republic of China for this mess. Hell, the Nationalist Right has a cudgel to smack the Left over the head with for the next hundred years now.

China literally going "we could cut off your medical supplies" was perhaps one of the dumbest moves for international relations I've seen a country make since December 1941. Seriously, in the middle of America panicking about a medical issue, THREATENING the US? This literally gives all the China-naysayers who have been WARNING that China was a hostile rising power that wouldn't be tempered by inclusion into the international system that much more ammo all while making them not only look RIGHT but potentially enabling them to take power.

And here's the bad news for the Democrats and the Left, all the China skeptics? They've not been "establishment" people, the core China skeptics have been the Religious Right and the Reform Party Populists.

Everyone is familiar with the first of those, but who are the second? The Reform Party was a 1990s centerist populist party that was semi-isolationist, suspect of Free Trade, suspect of immigration and blue collar focused party, and was the vehicle of Ross Perot to run for President in the 1992 and 1996 Presidential elections. You know who else was a member of the Reform Party for a time? One Donald Trump. You know what makes up the core of the "Trumpist" Coalition? An alliance between those with Reform Party interests and... the Religious Right. Also, to anyone pretending that Trump's main political messages were somehow new to the American political scene, seriously, no, he basically ran on a slightly modified Reform Party platform and has been governing from such a position as well, and those modifications? Those modifications were the things made to build the alliance with the Religious Right.

Basically, China has made the very CORE of Trump's coalition look as if they were RIGHT about one of the biggest geopolitical issues in the US. This is very serious because one of the things the DC establishment had been focused on is making the Reform Party skepticism of "Free Trade" and the like out to be a dumb idea, and that because they were the establishment and all the intellectuals and elites agreed with them, they had to be right. Being so publicly shown wrong further diminishes them and strengthens the Trump coalition.

 

[Airedale260]

If Trump plays his cards right, and he's proven to not be a fool, he can provide at least the most crushing Republican victory since 1984. And then he can use the coronavirus to beat the American Left senseless and punish the People's Republic of China for this mess. Hell, the Nationalist Right has a cudgel to smack the Left over the head with for the next hundred years now.

I wouldn’t go that far. Right now public support is about 50%. Reagan needed a fair amount of Democrats to pull off his sweep and today’s Democrats despise Trump.

Not saying he won’t win, but as we’ve already seen, there is no telling what’s in store for the rest of the year.

 

[bullethead]

I dunno how much political capital Trump can realistically gain from this clusterfuck, but the Democrats are getting fucked hard when even news sources in their pockets are reporting that they are stalling and want to push a 1400 page spending bill. At the machine shop I work at, we're all pretty tuned into the news, and we were looking forward to bill coming through and stabilizing the situation a bit.

 

[Airedale260]

I dunno how much political capital Trump can realistically gain from this clusterfuck, but the Democrats are getting fucked hard when even news sources in their pockets are reporting that they are stalling and want to push a 1400 page spending bill. At the machine shop I work at, we're all pretty tuned into the news, and we were looking forward to bill coming through and stabilizing the situation a bit.

Yeah that was some impressive stupidity. Our, ah, distant cousins lauded it as “standing up to corporations” or something, then got mad when someone poked significant holes in that statement.

 

[DarthOne]

Yeah that was some impressive stupidity. Our, ah, distant cousins lauded it as “standing up to corporations” or something, then got mad when someone poked significant holes in that statement.

Oh good lord...

 

[Deleted member]

China literally going "we could cut off your medical supplies" was perhaps one of the dumbest moves for international relations I've seen a country make since December 1941. Seriously, in the middle of America panicking about a medical issue, THREATENING the US? This literally gives all the China-naysayers who have been WARNING that China was a hostile rising power that wouldn't be tempered by inclusion into the international system that much more ammo all while making them not only look RIGHT but potentially enabling them to take power.

And here's the bad news for the Democrats and the Left, all the China skeptics? They've not been "establishment" people, the core China skeptics have been the Religious Right and the Reform Party Populists.

Everyone is familiar with the first of those, but who are the second? The Reform Party was a 1990s centerist populist party that was semi-isolationist, suspect of Free Trade, suspect of immigration and blue collar focused party, and was the vehicle of Ross Perot to run for President in the 1992 and 1996 Presidential elections. You know who else was a member of the Reform Party for a time? One Donald Trump. You know what makes up the core of the "Trumpist" Coalition? An alliance between those with Reform Party interests and... the Religious Right. Also, to anyone pretending that Trump's main political messages were somehow new to the American political scene, seriously, no, he basically ran on a slightly modified Reform Party platform and has been governing from such a position as well, and those modifications? Those modifications were the things made to build the alliance with the Religious Right.

Basically, China has made the very CORE of Trump's coalition look as if they were RIGHT about one of the biggest geopolitical issues in the US. This is very serious because one of the things the DC establishment had been focused on is making the Reform Party skepticism of "Free Trade" and the like out to be a dumb idea, and that because they were the establishment and all the intellectuals and elites agreed with them, they had to be right. Being so publicly shown wrong further diminishes them and strengthens the Trump coalition.

I remember campaigning for Ross Perot as a kid; my family were very committed organizers and supporters of both his runs and participating in rallies and making and sending out election material for him was my introduction to electoral politics. I think people neglect just how much Trump is actually the Reform Party taking over the Republican Party.

 

[S'task]

I remember campaigning for Ross Perot as a kid; my family were very committed organizers and supporters of both his runs and participating in rallies and making and sending out election material for him was my introduction to electoral politics. I think people neglect just how much Trump is actually the Reform Party taking over the Republican Party.

Yeah, I'm honestly confused at why people don't make that connection more. Perot ran on many of the same things as Trump did, just back in the early 90s. Heck, Trump was a MEMBER of the Reform party in the late 90s / early 2000s. The biggest difference between Trump and Perot is that, IIRC, Perot didn't make an alliance with the Religious Right and take a firm Pro-Life stance, as that was the period where the Pro-Life movement was, arguably, at it's lowest ebb as far as popular acceptance went, whereas the Republicans maintained that commitment, so the Reform Party couldn't really make any real inroads with the Republican coalition.

But yeah, Trump's takeover of the Republicans in many ways is the Reform Party in part taking over the Republicans, though not entirely. Rather, it's the Reform Party joining the Republican coalition and replacing the old Corporate/Chamber of Commerce Cons, which are a rapidly dying breed since the 90s and had utterly failed to uphold their coalition value to the rest of the Republican coalition.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

As I said before, people tend to have a short term memory as well as a very abridged and simplified knowledge or history

They may not even know about Trump ever having been part of the Reform party or if the Reform party ever existed

Or what policies Trump and others actually have

 

[Arch Dornan]

As I said before, people tend to have a short term memory as well as a very abridged and simplified knowledge or history

They may not even know about Trump ever having been part of the Reform party or if the Reform party ever existed

Or what policies Trump and others actually have

I only knew him before the election as some businessman that people didn't like for the golf courses taking up all the space.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

I only knew him before the election as some businessman that people didn't like for the golf courses taking up all the space.

Hilariously, he was first asked if he'd run for the white house in 1984 I believe and it was by Democrats. Trump was basically their "guy", they even spammed an interview he did at ground zero after 9/11 when he apparently threw his construction workers and truckers at the ruins to help the city clean up. And they did it in a way that almost seemed like they were trying to hype him to run against Bush.

Which is odd because as @S'task notes Trump always had more incommon with the party of RP. Granted, Perots policies were kinda hallmark Democrat platforms until the Clinton era and Trump himself met with a lot of traction by idiots like Kristal and Shapiro because he was essentially a 90's liberal with a reformist bent. But the democrats loved him for a couple decades there.

But yeah, Trump's takeover of the Republicans in many ways is the Reform Party in part taking over the Republicans, though not entirely. Rather, it's the Reform Party joining the Republican coalition and replacing the old Corporate/Chamber of Commerce Cons, which are a rapidly dying breed since the 90s and had utterly failed to uphold their coalition value to the rest of the Republican coalition.

I think this is more a symptom of a shift in the American right in general, rather than a direct result of the reform party/Libertarians coalition building within the GOP. I live in a city filled with fellow South American immigrants, Haitians and a lot of Zulu's from Zimbabwe and Soof Efrika. A lot Bajans, Jamaicans and Indians and what they all have in common is that they bring their own brand of right wing politics to the US and have a rather, understated and oft dismissed influence on political discourse. I think it's no coincidence you have movements like the so called "tradcaths" and others far more, authoritarian groups in motion out there making enough noise that mainstream Conservative pundits actually have to address them...And cater to them.

The American left is fracturing in a deleterious and self destructive way. So we notice it a lot more, but the American right is just as fractorious only, its more..reorienting and consolidating itself into something wholly new and arguably more "diverse" both ideologically and if you care about such things..ethnically. Granted, I spent part of my childhood in South Florida and the only Republicans I ever knew were either Black Americans, Dominicans or Cubans so the whole "party of elderly anglos" bit never really made sense to me.

But whatever, more to my point. Trump and the Reform party bit are symptomatic of the GOP's weakness and its willingness to capitulate in ways that prompt it to betray its own mandate (To conserve) and as a result of bringing us inmigrantes. The right seems to be changing and I think it's far more robust and will handle that change a lot better. Granted it might shift towards South American right wing politics more than the reform party's center in the coming decades.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

@The Immortal Watch Dog
Like the book I read named Aristillus, I think it’s safe to say all those Diverse Right-Wing Demographics will really surprise any and all Lefties trying to use them as their shields

Especially when they may have their own trauma or problems relating to Left Wing Governments back home or themselves struggle under government interference in their line of work

 

[Scottty]

...Why haven't these people been Soylent Greened yet? They'd do more for the American people as foodstuff than as politicians

Would you eat that?

🤮🤮🤮

 

[Arch Dornan]

Has the neet bill finally been passed? I heard it's been done. Better read it carefully for Patriot bill mk 2 switcheroo.

 

[prinCZess]

Has the neet bill finally been passed? I heard it's been done. Better read it carefully for Patriot bill mk 2 switcheroo.

Not passed yet (in fact, doesn't seem to even be a finalized bill available for the public to see), but there's apparently been ultra late-night/early-morning agreements reached by all the folks in Washington over how it should look--and it seems to be built around the previously-bipartisan, then-Republican, now-bipartisan-again plan of 'Trump bucks' and business loans rather than the Pelosi-plan.

Caution warranted and called for, and I too wait to see what wonders of pork-barrel or rights-restricting prickery congressmen snuck-in because the bill was guaranteed passage. But at the moment, can't say much on details.

 

[Floridaman]

Not passed yet (in fact, doesn't seem to even be a finalized bill available for the public to see), but there's apparently been ultra late-night/early-morning agreements reached by all the folks in Washington over how it should look--and it seems to be built around the previously-bipartisan, then-Republican, now-bipartisan-again plan of 'Trump bucks' and business loans rather than the Pelosi-plan.

Caution warranted and called for, and I too wait to see what wonders of pork-barrel or rights-restricting prickery congressmen snuck-in because the bill was guaranteed passage. But at the moment, can't say much on details.

given how even Twitter was attacking Pelosi over this until those hashtags were shut down, I think they figured they had no choice, and couldn’t blame it failing on Trump. But yeah, 20 bucks says whatever stupid riders are attached will be terrible for the country as a whole.