United States Another Suicidal Democrat Maneuver: Relief Bill Blocked

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

We are taking extraordinary measures in a State of Exception to control the tide of plague and disease in the country. That is one of the core very definitions of the function of a government in classical terms, and is a fundamental conservative function of Government. It has guns and arms and police powers to protect the body politic (the nation as a total whole) from threats foreign and domestic--crime, invasion, plague. Even a Minarchist should support the Declaration of a State of Siege in these circumstances. It's liberalism that hems and haws about civil rights in times of war and plague and famine. It's conservative strictness and adherence to the old maxim of "In times of War, the Law falls silent" which saves lives. That is why we have the concept of a State of Exception in the first place.

And I would support it, if the first thing Trump did was to declare the entirety of the MSN and the silicon valley class terrorists in open rebellion..If he federalized the national guard and locked down all states and cut off all medical support to every left leaning state where this virus gained a foothold in the first place. If he responded to this act of war by China and its proxies as an act of war.

And taken appropriate measures while also doing stuff like this. albeit, on a smaller scale

As it stands he didn't.

And what we've got is an excuse to declare martial law at the drop of a hat in the hands of our enemies.

I'm saying he should have acted less like FDR and more like Pinochet, a temporary loss of liberty with the aims of ensuring it'll never have to happen again and that it never does. While also, using this crisis to remove the enemy, domestically.

You seem to think I'm taking a minarchist approach when I'm arguing that this is dangerous, entirely because it's being done in a way that can empower the people who caused this mess in the first place.

 

[7 Gold Eye Heals the Wise]

And I would support it, if the first thing Trump did was to declare the entirety of the MSN and the silicon valley class terrorists in open rebellion..If he federalized the national guard and locked down all states and cut off all medical support to every left leaning state where this virus gained a foothold in the first place. If he responded to this act of war by China and its proxies as an act of war.

And taken appropriate measures while also doing stuff like this. albeit, on a smaller scale

As it stands he didn't.

And what we've got is an excuse to declare martial law at the drop of a hat in the hands of our enemies.

I'm saying he should have acted less like FDR and more like Pinochet, a temporary loss of liberty with the aims of ensuring it'll never have to happen again and that it never does. While also, using this crisis to remove the enemy, domestically.

You seem to think I'm taking a minarchist approach when I'm arguing that this is dangerous, entirely because it's being done in a way that can empower the people who caused this mess in the first place.

Go back to Mexico. We Americans would start shooting on principle.

 

[LordsFire]

And I would support it, if the first thing Trump did was to declare the entirety of the MSN and the silicon valley class terrorists in open rebellion..If he federalized the national guard and locked down all states and cut off all medical support to every left leaning state where this virus gained a foothold in the first place. If he responded to this act of war by China and its proxies as an act of war.

And taken appropriate measures while also doing stuff like this. albeit, on a smaller scale

As it stands he didn't.

And what we've got is an excuse to declare martial law at the drop of a hat in the hands of our enemies.

I'm saying he should have acted less like FDR and more like Pinochet, a temporary loss of liberty with the aims of ensuring it'll never have to happen again and that it never does. While also, using this crisis to remove the enemy, domestically.

You seem to think I'm taking a minarchist approach when I'm arguing that this is dangerous, entirely because it's being done in a way that can empower the people who caused this mess in the first place.

Yeah, if Trump or any other president tried to do what anyone described here, Congress would impeach him, the military would refuse to obey his orders, and if he kept pushing he'd just outright be arrested.

You're just trying to flex government muscle on your ideological opponents. For someone who claims to want to express some genuine American Conservatism, you seem awfully authoritarian and arbitrary.

If you supported actual Conservatism, you wouldn't be supporting putting classes of people not just in jail, but waging a domestic war against them. This is just 'us vs them' crap, the same ingroup/outgroup ideology that the left operates on.

Name a specific individual or organization. Give evidence of its specific crimes. Advocate appropriate action against them based upon that evidence.

And yes, a corruption purge in the Federal justice department is probably going to be the first step needed before other actions to restore a more meaningful law and order to the nation can happen.

 

[Floridaman]

And I would support it, if the first thing Trump did was to declare the entirety of the MSN and the silicon valley class terrorists in open rebellion..If he federalized the national guard and locked down all states and cut off all medical support to every left leaning state where this virus gained a foothold in the first place. If he responded to this act of war by China and its proxies as an act of war.

And taken appropriate measures while also doing stuff like this. albeit, on a smaller scale

As it stands he didn't.

And what we've got is an excuse to declare martial law at the drop of a hat in the hands of our enemies.

I'm saying he should have acted less like FDR and more like Pinochet, a temporary loss of liberty with the aims of ensuring it'll never have to happen again and that it never does. While also, using this crisis to remove the enemy, domestically.

You seem to think I'm taking a minarchist approach when I'm arguing that this is dangerous, entirely because it's being done in a way that can empower the people who caused this mess in the first place.

You should be careful arguing for dictatorial powers, using a crisis to seize such powers are anathema to America, and would destroy this nation completely. We are a republic, and we will have that only so long as we have the strength of will to maintain it, and far too many would use power for what they think is right, and in the process destroy that what they intended to defend.

 

[Deleted member 88]

The constitution is not a suicide pact. Trump seizing dictatorial power and waging domestic war would in all likelihood be the end of the republic-even if he was successful it would become a junta in which Trump would likely rule over in a capricious and also unwise fashion(not to mention-the left and the establishment would likely regain power not long after Trump died or left office)

I do not believe the constitution or republican government are infinitely elastic or everlasting. Nor should they be defended if such a time and circumstance exists in which their survival is detrimental to the nation itself.

There may come a day, when for the survival of the nation, radical changes to the state and its institutions and laws may be necessary.

If that happens-then it would ideally not be a violent overthrow of the government or a violent suppression of certain elements in the government or society-but a new convention or estates general equivalent meeting to restructure and if necessary replace the existing laws and bodies of government.

 

[Floridaman]

The constitution is not a suicide pact. Trump seizing dictatorial power and waging domestic war would in all likelihood be the end of the republic-even if he was successful it would become a junta in which Trump would likely rule over in a capricious and also unwise fashion.

I do not believe the constitution or republican government are infinitely elastic or everlasting. Nor should they be defended if such a time and circumstance exists in which their survival is detrimental to the nation itself.

There may come a day, when for the survival of the nation, radical changes to the state and its institutions and laws may be necessary.

If that happens-then it would ideally not be a violent overthrow of the government or a violent suppression of certain elements in the government or society-but a new convention or estates general equivalent meeting to restructure and if necessary replace the existing laws and bodies of government.

That should go without saying in fact it is the cornerstone of the founding document of the country.
“When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”

Declaration of Independence: A Transcription

[get-content name="print-page-left" include-tag="false" /] Note: The following text is a transcription of the Stone Engraving of the parchment Declaration of Independence (the document on display in the Rotunda at the National Archives Museum.) The spelling and punctuation reflects the original.

www.archives.gov

 

[Deleted member 88]

I don’t think the founding fathers would have stated the constitution should endure forever. Or deference to it valued over the survival of the nation itself.

Apart of me thinks Jefferson and Madison if they saw us today, would be shocked we basically worship a document that will be nearing its 300th birthday in about a half a century or so. Or well sixty nine years.

One day-the constitution and the institutions of government as they are, may become a fetter or even an impediment on the nation in the long run.

When that happens-they should be replaced. Not defended before all reason.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

You're just trying to flex government muscle on your ideological opponents. For someone who claims to want to express some genuine American Conservatism, you seem awfully authoritarian and arbitrary.

when have I ever wanted to express conservatism? American conservatism in its current form has utterly failed to conserve a goddamn thing. It's only succeeded in capitulating and conceding and losing ground little by little. It's an absolute joke, its betrayed by its adherents and the leaders have failed their own mandate to conserve American culture. Why would I ever want to be affiliated with that?

I kinda want the US to survive and thrive, not become a prog nightmare where we die a little more every day and we allow the weak, the diseased, the compromised, the subversive, the mediocre and the degenerate to gain more and more power over social discourse?

You're very confused if you think my stance of "We probably shouldn't execute this, this way because it empowers the enemies of America in the long run" equates with "We must defend the shining city on a hill"

That city has become Detroit and its infested.

We need to evict some motherfuckers, demo some buildings and hire construction workers to build some new ones, institute some sanitation and city maintenance! And maybe then conservatives can lecture people again. they had the chance and they surrendered to deconstructivism and in doing so, allowed this amazing country to become infected with a social disease which only has two cures and it might be too late for one of said cures.

If that happens-then it would ideally not be a violent overthrow of the government or a violent suppression of certain elements in the government or society-but a new convention or estates general equivalent meeting to restructure and if necessary replace the existing laws and bodies of government.

We've reached the terminus, there is maybe two or three more opportunities to go backwards before that becomes our only option going forward.

You should be careful arguing for dictatorial powers, using a crisis to seize such powers are anathema to America, and would destroy this nation completely. We are a republic, and we will have that only so long as we have the strength of will to maintain it, and far too many would use power for what they think is right, and in the process destroy that what they intended to defend.

The Will to maintain it, includes the will to drown it and then hit it with an adrenaline shot and resuscitate it.

Go back to Mexico. We Americans would start shooting on principle.

Hah, hah Mexico

Don't confuse me for a central American bub. No vengo de la tierra de los sirvientes.

 

[7 Gold Eye Heals the Wise]

Apart of me thinks Jefferson and Madison if they saw us today, would be shocked we basically worship a document that will be nearing its 300th birthday in about a half a century or so.

That's what Constitutional Amendments are for.

Or well sixty nine years

Nice!

 

[Deleted member 88]

@The Immortal Watch Dog i take it your more a reactionary then and not a conservative?

TBH, I’m far more sympathetic to your concerns than you might think.

I do not believe violence is never called for; and I concur-American conservatism has a great deal of failures, intellectual inadequacies, political cowardice, and an utter lack of true confidence or conviction.

However supreme caution must be exercised. And violent solutions-only embraced when all other alternatives and I mean all other alternatives have been exhausted.

 

[Airedale260]

I genuinely have no idea what the DNC's strategy is right now. This stunt they pulled looks absolutely awful, and as much as the media is trying to cover for them (why hello NYT and their changing of headlines and such), this is the Internet age. People aren't going to be gaslighted about who is causing the holdup right now.

I honestly don't know how they think this will play out in November, but I'll expect it to not play out favourably.

You should be careful arguing for dictatorial powers, using a crisis to seize such powers are anathema to America, and would destroy this nation completely. We are a republic, and we will have that only so long as we have the strength of will to maintain it, and far too many would use power for what they think is right, and in the process destroy that what they intended to defend.

Not to mention the fact that it could very well be used against *anyone.* This country is designed with the idea of restricting government power as much as possible, and its

I don’t think the founding fathers would have stated the constitution should endure forever. Or deference to it valued over the survival of the nation itself.

Apart of me thinks Jefferson and Madison if they saw us today, would be shocked we basically worship a document that will be nearing its 300th birthday in about a half a century or so. Or well sixty nine years.

One day-the constitution and the institutions of government as they are, may become a fetter or even an impediment on the nation in the long run.

When that happens-they should be replaced. Not defended before all reason.

Not necessarily. The Roman Republic survived for about 460 years, remember. The Constitution does have means for amending it as necessary, and ones that are clearly spelled out and not easily changed.

Perhaps the Constitution May become an impediment, but I strongly doubt it. The facts of human nature and tendencies towards tyranny are universal, but so are the truths and rights that were recognized in the 1780s. Madison and Co drafted a timeless document -not ‘living’ but timeless, and handed us one of the most remarkable legacies in history. One that, for all the stress we’ve managed to inflict on it, it has and continues to endure.

 

[Deleted member 88]

If the government itself becomes inimical to the constitution’s stated ideals, if the constitution becomes a dead letter what then?

If tyranny exists in practice if not in word?

Then in my humble opinion-the constitution will no longer have any active political value.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

If the government itself becomes inimical to the constitution’s stated ideals, if the constitution becomes a dead letter what then?

If tyranny exists in practice if not in word?

Then in my humble opinion-the constitution will no longer have any active political value.

I think it’s something plenty of Commies don’t like acknowledging

Without power, those votes mean nothing

Without power, those laws are just the roars of a paper tiger

Though, perhaps they know, that’s why they give so much power to said Communist governments while never outright saying that a Communist government is incorruptible or that everybody else isn’t allowed a gun

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

@The Immortal Watch Dog i take it your more a reactionary then and not a conservative?

TBH, I’m far more sympathetic to your concerns than you might think.

I do not believe violence is never called for; and I concur-American conservatism has a great deal of failures, intellectual inadequacies, political cowardice, and an utter lack of true confidence or conviction.

No, reaction is what got us into this mess in the first place, I truly believe that had more, pure conservatives in the 60's and 70's reacted more intelligently and charismatically to the counterculture subversion things would be a lot different. Instead they spazzed out, delegitimize their positions and then went ham thoughtlessly. Force being used to correct a problem, isn't necessarily a bad thing but the manner in which it was used played right into the hands of the agitators. This has resulted in the GOP needing to be bailed out by Ex democrats how many times now? Twice? One of which was a former Union boss no less .


Now the shoes on the other foot and the other side is reacting even worse than the traditional American right did back then, far more destructively as well. And we've been stuck in this cycle to where I think the pieces need to be knocked off the board and the board reset. Maybe some players shown the door as well.

As to my political leanings, the closest you might get is to call me a cultural imperialist, or a cultural supremacist? I think the romantic image of American values should be preserved and manifest destiny applied to it. You guys created the greatest nation on earth, your culture should be memetically weaponized to proliferate across the entire species in one form or another, it should replace other cultures gradually, the way Rome did it. But the nation kinda needs to survive in order for that to happen first. My belief in this is due to your nations elasticity, rigid cultures don't survive the shit you guys have survived. I know, my own didn't survive a diet soda version of what you guys did.

I think we're reaching a point where there is no future for the United States but for a titanic overhaul of the system and that includes combating virulent social movements the way you would combat a disease. And that the policy of salvation should be a temporary suspension, set things aside to do what must be done now before a total restoration and then a voluntary surrender to the judgement of history after the fact.


I'm not blind to the implications of what I'm suggesting, my grandfather was a mid level member of a every junta from Peron's original through to Galtieri then died endorsing democracy an old man. I had family members massacred by everyone from the Montoneros to the Carrapintadas defending democracy when democracy was defensible and worth dying for. But that's my point.

you can't have a culture or a republic worth conserving, when Deconstructivists exist in your nation and have spent three generations destroying it from within. American born Americans have committed a bloody treason against the spirit of this country and its put us in a position a lot of us immigrants are entirely too familiar with. Because we've seen how this goes when you stick to a principled path...

Principles are a thing to bleed for when the world burns, they're not a thing to sacrifice by clutching pearls, but to be set aside, treasured and taken out when you've made it safe. After you've fought for the spirit of the thing.

Any way..I think our aiside is woefully off topic and I'm not about to be baited into another thread ban for the the amusement of a pair of mods..So y'all can rage at me and call me a tard in VM's or someshit if you want but this aint the place for it.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Go back to Mexico. We Americans would start shooting on principle.

I am pretty sure that Mexico itself is getting sick of being used as a sort of stop for other South American nations

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

I am pretty sure that Mexico itself is getting sick of being used as a sort of stop for other South American nations

Central America...Central America.

Don't compare us South Americans to those shitheels thank you very much.

Well, Mexicans are cool.

Fuck the rest of it though.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Central America...Central America.

Don't compare us to those shitheels please.

Okay

Honestly, I gotta say I tend to be surprised by how surprisingly modern your cities look

Even more that you guys have your own Feminists vandalizing Churches

 

[DarthOne]

No, reaction is what got us into this mess in the first place, I truly believe that had more, pure conservatives in the 60's and 70's reacted more intelligently and charismatically to the counterculture subversion things would be a lot different. Instead they spazzed out, delegitimize their positions and then went ham thoughtlessly. Force being used to correct a problem, isn't necessarily a bad thing but the manner in which it was used played right into the hands of the agitators. This has resulted in the GOP needing to be bailed out by Ex democrats how many times now? Twice? One of which was a former Union boss no less .


Now the shoes on the other foot and the other side is reacting even worse than the traditional American right did back then, far more destructively as well. And we've been stuck in this cycle to where I think the pieces need to be knocked off the board and the board reset. Maybe some players shown the door as well.

As to my political leanings, the closest you might get is to call me a cultural imperialist, or a cultural supremacist? I think the romantic image of American values should be preserved and manifest destiny applied to it. You guys created the greatest nation on earth, your culture should be memetically weaponized to proliferate across the entire species in one form or another, it should replace other cultures gradually, the way Rome did it. But the nation kinda needs to survive in order for that to happen first. My belief in this is due to your nations elasticity, rigid cultures don't survive the shit you guys have survived. I know, my own didn't survive a diet soda version of what you guys did.

I think we're reaching a point where there is no future for the United States but for a titanic overhaul of the system and that includes combating virulent social movements the way you would combat a disease. And that the policy of salvation should be a temporary suspension, set things aside to do what must be done now before a total restoration and then a voluntary surrender to the judgement of history after the fact.


I'm not blind to the implications of what I'm suggesting, my grandfather was a mid level member of a every junta from Peron's original through to Galtieri then died endorsing democracy an old man. I had family members massacred by everyone from the Montoneros to the Carrapintadas defending democracy when democracy was defensible and worth dying for. But that's my point.

you can't have a culture or a republic worth conserving, when Deconstructivists exist in your nation and have spent three generations destroying it from within. American born Americans have committed a bloody treason against the spirit of this country and its put us in a position a lot of us immigrants are entirely too familiar with. Because we've seen how this goes when you stick to a principled path...

Principles are a thing to bleed for when the world burns, they're not a thing to sacrifice by clutching pearls, but to be set aside, treasured and taken out when you've made it safe. After you've fought for the spirit of the thing.

Any way..I think our aiside is woefully off topic and I'm not about to be baited into another thread ban for the the amusement of a pair of mods..So y'all can rage at me and call me a tard in VM's or someshit if you want but this aint the place for it.

The problem lies in that the course of action your suggesting would backfire far worse then anything the conservatives in the 60’s did. We must be patient.

 

[Guy of Z]

Yeah, if Trump or any other president tried to do what anyone described here, Congress would impeach him, the military would refuse to obey his orders, and if he kept pushing he'd just outright be arrested.

You're just trying to flex government muscle on your ideological opponents. For someone who claims to want to express some genuine American Conservatism, you seem awfully authoritarian and arbitrary.

If you supported actual Conservatism, you wouldn't be supporting putting classes of people not just in jail, but waging a domestic war against them. This is just 'us vs them' crap, the same ingroup/outgroup ideology that the left operates on.

Name a specific individual or organization. Give evidence of its specific crimes. Advocate appropriate action against them based upon that evidence.

And yes, a corruption purge in the Federal justice department is probably going to be the first step needed before other actions to restore a more meaningful law and order to the nation can happen.

When hasn't MSN and silicon valley been an enemy of the people are you deluded bro? The fact Chinas social credit system came from Silicon valley alone is a damming indictment alone but ok lets simp for these corperations and journalists who shill activist stances to destroy americans. Lets just be good boys and take it to show we're "True cons"

 

[Deleted member 88]

I think a major fault was that conservatives often times didn’t know how to react effectively to the sexual revolution or the New Left. Beyond voting for Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon

The left secured control of the institutions of society-whereas conservatives simply voted every four years.

This is an important aspect to remember-right wing folks by nature are not usually activists. They have businesses and families. The left is far more focused on political operations. And it’s members devote far more time, intellectual capital, and energy towards political and hence cultural goals.

Conservatives thus are always on the back foot, reacting to whatever the left is doing next.

That’s why the right loses. We are always on the defensive, at best delaying or postponing are adversaries agendas.