Or because they practice a culture that is incredibly obstructive for the process of building wealth. Like this.
Israel 🇮🇱 State of Israel Thread
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LordsFire
Internet Wizard
Nobody is making 'stupid subhuman' arguments here except for you.
Political stability has far more to do with local culture and values than with foreign interference. Arab culture is fractious and feuding, very much something that tends towards 'strong man' ruler styles of politics. The evidence of this is in how Arab nations are basically all monarchies, dictatorships, or client states of foreign powers.
I've lived in the middle east. I grew up there. I've seen both good sides and bad sides to it (the west could learn a thing or two from Arab customs about hospitality), but as the evidence shows throughout history, Islam is a toxic and destructive ideology with rare exceptions, and it is entrenched in Arab culture more than any other.
They are definitely poor at least in part because they are "stupid" (or at least, for cultural reasons). The number of nobel prizes for sciences of over a billion Muslims compared to Jews less than 2% of their number speaks for itself. They have a lot of cultural issues to solve before they can become competitive with Israel.
Also they are not "subhuman", you anti-Israel types are the only ones who bring up this inane and extremely insulting argument. No Israeli has ever argued that Arabs are subhuman and you know it, I demand you take your words back or I'll involve the forum moderators.
Economics are not a zero sum game, as the many countries that manage to actually increase their economic output by cooperating with each other can attest.
Unlike Israel, which clearly never had to worry about, invasion, war or terrorism. Are you fucking kidding me?
Mossad is just an intelligence agency, even if a good one, not some sort of divine being. No intelligence agency in Earth could possibly keep an entire fucking subcontinent in poverty for most of a century, especially one belongings to a country of less tha 10 million people. Yeah, Mossad can do some really impressive shit like planting viruses in sensitive computers, stealing secret information and assassinating important people, but real life is not actually a Tom Clancy novel and there's a limit to what they can do that comes far, FAR short of what you're alleging.
King Arts
Well-known member
First off I’m not anti Israel and it annoys me when you use it for every criticism of Israel oh you are anti Israel. No if I was anti Israel I would not defend their artillery attack that killed 100 civilians accidentally. Also what exactly do you want me to retract? I never said you said Arabs are subhuman.
As for the Nobel argument that just reinforces my point on why the fuck are things so backwards for Arabs when they should be matching Jews. I mean jews and Arabs are similar genetically you are both decended from Abraham are a semetic people and should have similar culture. Judaism and Islam are also much closer to each other than either are to Christianity so it confuses me on how you are so different from each other.
Disagree the universe is a closed system with only a finite amount of resources and resources are not spread evenly some places have more of one thing than another.
Oh no you do I’m just using it to bring up the next point.
Please don’t act like it’s something impossible only the divine could do a highly competent secret service like the KGB at its height could do the same and it did sabatoge Eastern Europe. The mossad is made up of geniuses the best of the best and people should respect that it’s hard to tell whether Mid East chaos comes from Arab incompetence and infighting or mossad sabotage.
Literally the only position that takes the side of Israel you ever took, not to mention your frequent likes to History Learner's hilariously one-sided posts. Hey, if you oppose Israel that's your full right, but don't try to bullshit me about it because I have 2 functional eyes and I can see where you stand.
Said, no. Heavily implied, definitely.
In practice Jewish and Arab culture is extremely different, that not only goes for European Jews, but Jews that actually lived within Arab countries as well. I don't know and don't care about their respective genetics or whatnot.
Not everything comes down to religion. Russia and Britain for example have huge cultural differences despite both being Christian (yeah yeah, one is protestant and the other orthodox, still much more similar than Judaism is to Islam).
Economic success is by far not only about resources. If it was, Israel would be the poorest country in the middle east, since until literally the last 5 years it had no natural resources to speak of, and even the natural gas it now mines from the seabed is like a tiny blimp compared to the giant oil industries of many Arab nations.
What? You said that Arab countries are poorer than Israel (broadly speaking, since a country like Saudi Arabia and the UAE can probably buy Israel 10 times over with their oil money) because they suffer from war and terrorism. Which Israel also suffers a lot from, so that argument falls flat. You didn't bring up any other point that relies on this claim.
I'm flat out telling you that it's literally impossible and only the divine could pull something like that off, period.
Let me put it this way, do you have any evidence that the Mossad is responsible for the fact that dozens of countries are third world shitholes instead of landing their first manned missions to Mars or something right now? Not "probably", any actual, concrete evidence?
King Arts
Well-known member
There are only two conversations related to Israel in this thread 1 that artillery strike on the UN base, 2 that Arabs are better off under Israeli rule than leading themselves. I took Israel’s side in the 1st one and am against it on the 2nd if I was an Arab I’d rather be in Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, or the UAE over Israel, because being a second class citizen sucks that I actually have to defend this is astounding.
Implied.
Please don’t go on about dog whistle. I never implied you thought Arabs are idiots. You have a better argument that I implied that Arabs ARE actually inferior. I don’t think that but it’s a better argument than saying I put words in others mouths.
Well of course each religion is unique, but why are Jews more similar to Christian culture nations than Muslim ones. From what I know Islam and Judaism are very similar and compatible both legalistic similar view of God while the Christians are completely different.
Crap I meant the top response to go here. But yeah aren’t Arabs and Jews very very similar in matters of spirituality and both are descendants from Abraham and share similar culture traits. And yes Christians are still Christian even if Protestant Catholic or orthodox. And muslims and Jews are different. But your view on god is the same aren’t your only differences a disagreement on who Abraham’s heir actually is, and whether or not Mohammed was a prophet?
This is true the economy is vastly complex and I will say I don’t understand it.
As for the mossad no of course there is no proof. I’m not saying they did anything I’m only saying that they are good enough to do stuff and get away without leaving a trace or failing the mission.
Arabs descended from nomadic tribes, so their culture emphasizes traits that make sense in that environment, such as tribalism (leading to internal strife that caused all attempts at a pan-Arabic movement to fail), strong senses of honor and justice that are very different from the western understanding, etc.
Judaism, meanwhile, is highly influenced by Talmudic tradition that emerged in the middle ages and doesn't have a lot to do with Islam. Jewish culture was also shaped by millenia in diaspora in countries hostile to them so they adopted traits that are beneficial to their survival, such as emphasis on scholarship and diligent study and financial success through innovation and thinking outside the box.
The above are, mind you, generalizations. The point is that the fact the two religions have a similar origin is not the end all be all.
Yes, but small scale stuff, causing specific problems for a small amount of countries, not holding back half the world for a century.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
No. Islam and Judaism are radically different, and Christianity is about 70% similar to Judaism.
That you do not understand such basic elements of the religious elements to this cultural clash really makes you look pretty blind about the whole thing.
I do owe you an apology for one of my former posts though. I realized I was mentally conflating your position with History Learner's on the whole issue; I'm sorry about that.
King Arts
Well-known member
Hmm early Jews before the romans destroyed the temple and before the Babylonian captivity were also desert herders right? So would you say that the reason for the differences between Arab and Jewish culture is because Jews were forced to change thousands of years ago while Arabs are only recently started to end being herders?
I mean I don’t want to downplay the achievements of the Israeli secret service but for the most part their actions are confined to a small area of the world the Middle East only 20 countries would be where they operate they usually don’t go farther than Iran unless they are hunting an old Nazi in South America Mossad won’t be in Europe or America or Asia that’s 75 percent of the world.
It’s no problem I too sometimes mix people up.
But I am pretty sure you are wrong on how similar Christianity and Judaism are. For sure we are more similar than Buddhists and Hindus. But from watching YouTube videos of a Rabbi I’m pretty sure that Islam is closer to Judaism than more than 75 percent of Christians. But I’m willing to debate and argue so tell me why you think Jews are closer to Christianity than Islam. Then I’ll respond.
Simonbob
Well-known member
........ I see that you don't want to hear some basic facts, when it comes to ethnicity. That is, yes, there are actual genetic differences between ethnic groups. Differences that come out in facial features, skill tone, and both average IQ and personality trait varience.
So, by your own words, not mine? I guess the Arabs must be "stupid subhumans" rather than people who, culturally, bred themselves for traits other than intelligence.
Better in deserts? Sure. I haven't seriously studied them, but they do have advantages. However, with modern tech, those advantages are vastly less important.
Much like the traditional fishing techniques, what they bred for is now no longer the best way.
King Arts
Well-known member
There are differences between the races of man, I do not dispute this. However I have never seen a trustworthy source that is knowledgeable enough to actually show one race is smarter than the others. You will see intelligent black men and dumb white men, which automatically disproves race is the sole determination and end all be all. But let’s keep it on point no bringing in blacks or Asians let’s stay in the Middle East. Also even if nature is more important than nurture like I said find a non biased source because Arabs are kin to Jews this is fact they are both semetic peoples. Just like Anglos, Germans, and Norse are kin and are all Germanic people racial cousins. Italians, French, Romanians, Spaniards, and Portuguese are Latin peoples, they share similar traits. Or how the Slavic people Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, etc are related. Any deviation takes a long long long time not enough time has happened to seperate the semetic peoples the same way as with Indo Europeans where there is an original common ancestor but it split back so far. The Arabs can’t be fucked up because of their genes being defective otherwise the same should apply to Jews. I wouldn’t trust an American to be neutral or unbiased since their enemies, the same applies to Jews and Arabs you can’t allow someone to analyze themselves because they aren’t objective. Neither Europeans either because of history and current politics will want to push a position. Maybe the Chinese or Japanese would be non biased and can be trusted because they don’t care. Oh and lol on desert endurance not mattering then why are we leaving Afghanistan and it is going to be seen as a repeat of Vietnam in our history? They were adapted to mountain survival just like the Vietnamese were for jungle. Technology advances but it’s not like there is a whole new paradigm.
Simonbob
Well-known member
A-V-E-R-A-G-E.
Average. As in, no specific individual. As in, if you got 10,000 of any particuar ethnic group, and gave them a properly tailored IQ test, you'll find different averages.
As in, you are wrong.
How long did it take to breed a new type of dog, I wonder?
How to Create a New Dog Breed — Registration, Standard, Cost, etc.
To create a new dog breed, a dog breeder must establish a set of clearly measurable and visible traits known as the breed standard. It is a list of characteristics that formally describe the breed to an audience. The breeder needs to build up the new dog breed over several generations, generally...
breedingbusiness.com
That link says 50 years or less. As humans have a roughly 10 times the breeding age, we're talking less than 500 years.
500 years or less. How long were the Jews in Europe? Oh, yeah, 1500 years and more.
So. I repeat myself. You are Wrong.
Just for the protocol, I don't feel comfortable discussing genetics when it pertains to politics. The actual truth here matters little, it's more that if people start sorting other people by genetics it never leads to good places.
Suffice to say that Arabs have a fucked up culture and call it a day.
Suffice to say that Arabs have a fucked up culture and call it a day.
Simonbob
Well-known member
Understood. It took me years before I could accept what I found.
Agreed.
King Arts
Well-known member
Average average, that average doesen't matter, since the numbers can be changed. Stop coping DNA is not the end all be all.
Ok, you do know dog breeds all those different variations require a intelligent actor to direct evolution right? Yes over a long enough period of time environmental hazards will make the animals themselves diverge, but for dogs it would take 100's of years instead of 50. 50 is only possible because there is a superior being directing the dog and selecting which traits to promote or reduce, tell me are humans being controlled by God, or an superior alien race to breed towards specific ends? It does not look like it unless you can show me. While it's theoretically possible humans could try and direct their own evolution this is hard, very very hard it has MANY practical problems. Do you know why animals like Elephants have never been domesticated? While these animals can be tamed and perfectly smart enough to work with humans. It's that they live long, close to humans. The guy who starts the breeding program won't be able to be the same guy who sees the results like in 50 years for dogs. He'd have to rely on his descendants, and hope they don't screw, up go in a different direction, or have to put the project on a back burner because they are dealing with a crisis. Humans can't really objectively direct their own evolution because the time scales are too long.How long did it take to breed a new type of dog, I wonder?
That link says 50 years or less. As humans have a roughly 10 times the breeding age, we're talking less than 500 years.How to Create a New Dog Breed — Registration, Standard, Cost, etc.
To create a new dog breed, a dog breeder must establish a set of clearly measurable and visible traits known as the breed standard. It is a list of characteristics that formally describe the breed to an audience. The breeder needs to build up the new dog breed over several generations, generally...
500 years or less. How long were the Jews in Europe? Oh, yeah, 1500 years and more.
So. I repeat myself. You are Wrong.
Also you are ignoring the other points about how American people can't be trusted to conduct racial science studies since they are biased as hell. Hell many people who harp about Arabs being dumb sand niggers are low class trash themselves who aren't educated enough to understand what they are classifying. How many people have actually lived in or studied Arab culture themselves. I will say most haven't they just paint one big brush because many of these idiots will think all Muslims are arabs, and will even think Iran is an Arab nation, and not know they are Persians. No the more likely answer is that it's Islamic culture itself that is what causes problems that would explain why formerly advanced people's like the Iranians aka Persians are now in shit after being Islamified. The same applies to Egypt(how much they are Arab, vs still the same people as the Ancient Egyptians is actually open to debate, but most likely they are the same), and Turkey.
While historical migrations and conquests have happened all throughout history for the most part the genepool has remained stable, there are sources that show that current Egyptians are the same for the most part genetically as the Ancient Egyptians, the same with Ancient Greeks and modern Greeks. In fact the current Turks who live in Turkey aka Anatolia are not the same as the migratory steppe horse nomads who invaded but the local Anatolian/Greek peoples. Modern Hungayrians are not the same as the Ancient Huns but the people they conqured that lived in that area from before.
History Learner
Well-known member
No where there does it say they were still firing?
You're very welcome to cite what question you feel I dodged.
I'm really interested in how this has any relevancy to any of the points that are in contention, which originally was the status of Arabs in Israel and has now shifted to the question of how Israeli Arabs compare to Arabs outside of Israel.
Citation needed. Beyond that though, is the purpose of government not to help its citizens? Or does Israel get a pass for being racist?
Lets ignore the low hanging fruit of war torn countries in the region and go to big and proud Egypt.
32.5% of Egyptians live in extreme poverty: CAPMAS
According to CAPMAS, Egypt announced that he who earns less than LE 8,282 (US$ 501.03) annually and $1.3 daily, lives under the poverty line.www.egypttoday.com
That's what being poor in Egypt means.
For purposes of comparisons with the figures thrown around in your links, 500$ is about 1600 shekels. Per year, not per month. Yes, those poor Arabs in Israel earn several times more money in a month than many Arabs in Egypt do in a whole year. Let that sink in.
Of course for leftists that's no excuse, because their problem isn't that the Arabs in Israel are exceptionally poor by some independent standard, but that they don't have statistical income equality as compared to Jews in Israel.
Quick question for you: South African Blacks under Apartheid made significantly more money than other Africans. Does that mean Apartheid was a valid system, yes or no? American Blacks during Jim Crow made significantly more than Blacks in the Caribbean or Africa. Does that mean the aforementioned Jim Crow was a valid system? Again, yes or no. The problem with Israel is that besides the obvious and flagrant second class status of Israeli Arabs is compounded by the fact there is active employment discrimination, as well as in fields such as business and the like. Israel is most definitely not like America where we have the Civil Rights Act of 1964; there is a legal system of discrimination in place against Israeli Arabs that doesn't exist for minorities here, so they argument of "equality of opportunity" doesn't have merit. Either you have to justify Israel on racial grounds against its minorities or you have to accept this criticism of Israel is valid.
Finally, I'm not a Leftist and I find it more weird that any self proclaimed Rightist would find it worthwhile to support Israel. Do you believe in the concept of Human Rights and Personal Liberties? Israel actively and violently does not, violating those every day. Do you believe abortion is wrong? Israel is the global leader in Abortion. How about LGBT issues? Israel is among the top in the world for that and certainly in the Middle East. Are you a fiscal conservative? Israel is the top recipient of U.S. foreign aid. Do you hate China the CCP? Israel since the 1990s has been selling our military technology to them. Do you hate the migrant crisis in Europe? Guess who Merkel just gave an award to for their part in it? IsraAID.
Assuming you're an American Right Winger, on virtually every single issue the U.S. Right professes to believe in, Israel is on the opposite side. So, please, tell me who the real Leftists are again?
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So you are saying the Isrealis should have just let the enemy hit them and not return fire?
Saying that means you obviously would rather watch Israelis die.
The only reason one would not fire back is if they are shooting into a neutral country. Like when Iran fired missles into Iraq against the US.
The UN also didn't let them know how close they were and were allowed to use thier compound.
The US would have fired back, any country would have that doesn't want to fucking lose soldiers to terrorists
Saying that means you obviously would rather watch Israelis die.
The only reason one would not fire back is if they are shooting into a neutral country. Like when Iran fired missles into Iraq against the US.
The UN also didn't let them know how close they were and were allowed to use thier compound.
The US would have fired back, any country would have that doesn't want to fucking lose soldiers to terrorists
History Learner
Well-known member
That would be a valid point.....if that was the original point of contention, like at all.
The original statement I responded to was about how well off Israeli Arabs were in a general sense, which somehow justifies their second class status, by showing they were actually significantly worse off than Israeli Jews. The question then was posed how well off Israeli Arabs were versus other nations
What mission were the Israelis doing, how deep inside Lebanon were they and where was the front line at the time? We both know the answers on this, which is why neither you nor anyone else has responded to me saying this twice now.
Except according to your own link, they had stopped firing and were actually fleeing. So somehow the artillery was justified because the Israelis had been fired upon but also because the people firing on them had ceased engagement and had retreated into the compound? Nevermind that, again, whether they had been fired upon is irrelevant in the context of war crimes; you don't get to burn down villages anymore because someone fired on your troops.
Except it's not, because you're attempting to conflate criminal law with international defined legal standards on the actions of war.
Except Israel does have the highest poverty rate in the OCED and this falls flat given how poverty rates are actually collected by them.
Nice dodge, but answer the question directly.
This is textbook cognitive dissonance, given your opening line from this post.
History Learner
Well-known member
So I take it you have not bothered to read anything posted so far, have you?
Besides the fact that Isreal responded to the mortar attacks and that is what hit the UN building.
You have literally said they should not have fired back.
That is all I need.
If any of the people I work with heard that they would probably slap the person. Because that is how people die...