Israel 🇮🇱 State of Israel Thread
- Thread starter 49ersfootball
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Arlos
Sad Monarchist
How long do you give them?
I have no idea. They may surprise us yet... The biggest wildcard is the Arab party, in the last conflict with Hamas they suspended talks about the coalition, resuming them only afterwards. If another conflict breaks out? They may find it impossible, politically, not stand down and leave the coalition, disintegrating it.
So anywhere from literally tomorrow to 4 years from now.
That's in some part a religion problem. If a Catholic in Germany gets radicalized in his faith, chances are that he might start going to Latin Mass. If an Israeli Arab gets radicalized in his religion, chances are that he might want to put on a suicide vest and blow up the nearest IDF checkpoint.
In the other part, well, even the nearby Arab countries have struggles with securing the loyalty of own citizens.
Polish.
These countries are an excellent example that "condition critical but stable" is not just a medical term, but also a political term.
There is no possible easy solution nor a quick solution to their core problems, but there are plenty of people suggesting that such exist, most likely to result in merely a switchover of tyrants at best, and total dissolution of a country in a multi-faction civil war at worst.
Some of them are just naive and not aware of the risk they are creating by overthrowing these stable but crappy regimes, others are more than ok with the consequences (slave trading caliphate fandom in particular).
And that's a big problem with the whole debate of ethnopolitics in the west - it is dominated by marxist concerns, based on a framework of marxist thinking. The blueprint applies to any situation where two or more distinct ethnic groups live in the same state, yet, as demographic groups, have statistically significant differences of results in socioeconomic indicators, as they often do, for various reasons.
That's when the angry marxists march out of the woodwork and decree that this situation has to be addressed - more specifically, that this situation is intolerable, a great injustice is happening, it is most certainly caused by the evils marxism always claim to fight and shall be condemned unconditionally as such, and that equality of socioeconomic results across groups shall be instituted, by any means necessary.
And then, in public debate there is only negotiation left - about what exactly is to blame, and if we really want to use "any means" or perhaps there should be some limits on the means (proper marxist zealots say no, all sorts of more moderate political factions want more or less limits), and what priority in terms of attention and funding should addressing this issue get (marxist zealots say ultimate priority, more moderate factions may slide it back by more or less places).
But why is there no major opposition to the whole marxist frame of this debate in favor of some less ideologically biased alternative? There needs to be more debate about whether situations like that are intolerable, consider that depending on the real causes of the specific situation perhaps a great justice isn't happening, and if there is no great injustice happening, perhaps this situation doesn't need solving through making everyone equal at all.
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The Army specialises in this sorta stuff too.Looks like the US Army made its own report on Qana and goes into a lot more detail. It's an interesting read and makes the UN look pretty bad, I'm not surprised Wikipedia ignored it in favor of the more partisan UN report.
A most painful lesson: The 1996 Shelling of Qana, why it matters today
Because of a single United Nations report written almost 20 years ago, much of the international community has believed Israel committed genocide at Qana, Lebanon in April of 1996. In military circles, the event is considered the 20th century's most...www.army.mil
So from the top:
The UN report was written by a naval communications specialist with no expertise whatsoever in artillery who did not look at anything but where the shells hit, putting a lot of doubt into the UN report in the first place.
The UN report mentions that some Hezbollah fighters entered the compound but leaves out that they were wearing UN-marked flak jackets and were deploying from the compound to fire artillery, then retreating back inside. That's kinda a big detail to leave out and puts things in a very different light.
Israeli soldiers had a mismarked map that indicated the UN Compound was 100 meters away from its actual position and believed they were safe firing there.
This was compounded by an error in calculating the shells trajectory that made them overshoot the target by 116 meters. This still would have been safe if the UN Compound had been where they thought, 350 meters from the target. However, the combination of the mark being 100 meters off on the map and missing the mark by another 116 meters, when the target was only 170 meters from the compound, caused the shells to hit the UN Compound.
We have to take into account that artilleryis not accurate and usually make sure within a kilo max is safe to fire on. Often only within 200m because of the disapation of the artillery even with smart shells.
History Learner
Well-known member
No it does not, actually, under the laws of warfare.
Or maybe its the Israelis for conducting hostilities in the first place around the compound? This wasn't conventional combat, as conceded by the Israelis themselves, but a mission deep within Lebanon and far from the front lines. They had no business being there and none of this would've happened had they not been. Yet, somehow, the UN are at fault for Israel violating the sovereignty of Lebanon?
Can you explain to me how this is wrong but somehow calling in a firing mission at roughly 100 yards of a refugee center is okay? That's even if we buy the official story; mind you, your claim is that faulty Israeli maps were to blame but there is video evidence as well as an official admission by Israel they had drones on station. At best, they are criminally negligent and should be charged as such, even if we take the official story.
Israel's poverty rate is actually over 20% and is the highest among the OCED.
Can you tell me where this combat took place and where the frontline was at the time? I'll wait. There's also the irony that "someone" was Bennett, who I said should be charged which triggered this whole debate. Thanks for making my point for me.
I take it none of you actually bothered to read the article and just decided to knee jerk on the first thing you saw? To cite:
Arabs have a lower life expectancy than Jews, a higher infant-mortality rate, worse infrastructure services, and lower incomes, particularly among those with higher education. Nearly 50% of Arab-Israelis fall below the poverty line, compared to 13% of Jews, according to the most recent report, though that number is an improvement over recent years.
The statistics provided weren't just for that one town, they are for the Israeli Arab population as a whole.
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You do know how artillery works right?
It isn't accurate to the dot.
You have to give or take a couple meters to a couple hundred depending on the Artillery
History Learner
Well-known member
Or, better idea, we compare apples to apples and do Israeli Arabs to other Arabs because comparing internal differences among Arab nations does nothing to answer the original assertion that Israeli Arabs are better off under Israel?
So, lemme get this straight. In a rich, developed country, people who try to live as small scale fishermen end up in poverty, struggling with regulations and competition from large scale commercial fishing?
Who would have expected that, that couldn't possibly happen except for some dastardly scheme of oppression by the country's ethnic majority and its government!
We all know that small scale fishermen in rich countries live like rockstars and never have to worry about money, taxes or any limits on fishing, right?
Oh, wait...
New York Times Post Breaking News Magazine Sports Life
Your source for breaking news, photos, and videos about New York, sports, business, entertainment, opinion, real estate, culture, fashion,www.nytimespost.com
Page doesn't exist
English news from the Voice of America. VOA news provides coverage from around the world and learning English lessons from VOA Special English.www.voanews.com
Even *commercial* fishermen of (still) locally dominant nationality in the gloriously fair EU worry about... poverty and bankrupcy.
Italian Fishermen Raise Their Nets in Protest (Published 2010)
Italian fishermen are protesting European Union Council regulation regarding sustainable fishing in the Mediterranean that became fully effective on June 1.www.nytimes.com
I'm not really sure how "our economic system is terrible too" is supposed to be anything other than an unintentional self-own, but specific to the point at hand that they are equally bad off is supposed to prove what, exactly? The original claim was that Israeli Arabs are better off and thus should be grateful to live as second class citizens under Israel; can you tell me the relevancy of the ravages of globalism has to that point?
History Learner
Well-known member
Yes I do and that is why Israel calling in a fire mission within 100 yards-if we believe their official story-of a civilian refugee compound is made even worse.
King Arts
Well-known member
It does not matter where the front lines in war are in ww2 even though Berlin was far from the front there were still air raids on it. If America and Russia went to war Russia would be justified to send in a spetznaz team to strike at the capital and we the same towards Moscow. You don’t have to limit warfare to the front lines you can start combat in other areas and move the front or even create new fronts.
And allow yourself to be bombarded?
History Learner
Well-known member
Except the reports justifying the Israeli fire mission note the Arabs had already broke contact and were retreating; there was no longer any immediate threat to the IDF personnel. Likewise, Israel is a signatory to the Geneva Convention and other elements of international law; the protection of civilian populations in line with said standards is set upon.
.except others have pointed out they were doing it again and again.
History Learner
Well-known member
Where?
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
If you actually did that instead of comparing Israeli Arabs to Israeli Jews and pretending it meant something about quality-of-life in Jordan, you'd probably get further in this discussion.
Israel didn't conduct hostilities in the first place, Hezbollah did that by building artillery positions all around it, and the UN compounded it by failing to maintain a perimeter and allowing Hezbollah to use the shelter as a forward base. Israel responded to that.
Simple, the artillery Israel fired was counter-fire to the artillery Hezbollah fired. If Hezbollah had not been allowed to place their mortars less than 200 yards of the refugee center, Israel would never have fired in the first place.
This is similar to the legal principle that if you rob a bank and somebody else kills a person during the robbery, you're legally on the hook for murder even if you didn't do the killing because your actions led to it.
OCED Figures aren't useful for actually determining poverty, they merely take the Median for the country and use that as their standard, so a nation with high standards of living can have a massive poverty rate because their median income is skewed by a few high-earning people while a nation where everybody's starving to death will get tagged with minimal poverty because they're all starving at similar rates. Not only is Israel not the highest in the OCED, the OCED's idiotic method of calculating poverty shows that Mexico has far less poverty than the United States. That's why I presented objective numbers that simply show how many people in the country are living below international poverty standards, not the variable-by-nation nonsense the OCED produces.
There was a map in the link I provided to the US army analysis above.
Okay, but comparing Israeli Arabs and Israeli Jews doesn't establish anything about Arab-Nation Arabs, now does it?
I'm really interested in the logic according to which the fact that old fishing technologies are not competitive with new and more efficient alternatives makes an economic system terrible.
The point is, that in Israel, as supposed second class citizens, even in the poorest villages that at least partially have to be blamed for not adapting to the needs of modern economies, are still better off than a whole lot of their fellow Arabs in their neighboring countries, most of them independent and very proud of it.
Lets ignore the low hanging fruit of war torn countries in the region and go to big and proud Egypt.
32.5% of Egyptians live in extreme poverty: CAPMAS
According to CAPMAS, Egypt announced that he who earns less than LE 8,282 (US$ 501.03) annually and $1.3 daily, lives under the poverty line.
www.egypttoday.com
That's what being poor in Egypt means.
For purposes of comparisons with the figures thrown around in your links, 500$ is about 1600 shekels. Per year, not per month. Yes, those poor Arabs in Israel earn several times more money in a month than many Arabs in Egypt do in a whole year. Let that sink in.
Of course for leftists that's no excuse, because their problem isn't that the Arabs in Israel are exceptionally poor by some independent standard, but that they don't have statistical income equality as compared to Jews in Israel.
Except comparing Israeli Arabs to arabs in neighboring countries, you know, the people who are actually culturally, ethnically and historically similar to them but not under Israeli rule (i.e: equating all variables except for Israeli rule) is clearly the best way to determine if Arabs are indeed better under Israeli rule than comparing them to Israeli Jews (which was what the article you linked to did), which is literally completely irrelevant to the question you yourself pose.
That's a VERY impressive dodge from trying to answer the actual, detailed account of events that led to this shelling. You may want to try, you know, debating the actual arguments presented in the thread? Just a thought.
King Arts
Well-known member
Except that the only variable is not led by Jews vs led by themselves. Those countries aren’t poor because they are stupid subhumans and the Israeli Jews are superior to them. No they are poor because of either simple economics it’s impossible for everyone to be rich, or political chaos, and war. This isn’t France and Germany where the modern neighbors are friendly those nations have to worry about invasion and terrorists plus Israel also would logically not want them to get too rich and powerful so there is a good chance of Mossad sabotage after all Mossad is probably the best secret service out there in the world right now.