Fallout The Eagle And The Bear [Fallout AU]

When the NCR high command accept the information on how the Neo-Enclave actually works, they're going to have to change up their strategy quite a bit. Not just for the war, but for their planned post war.

Without the expected compliance on behalf of the population, setting up their planned network of puppet states would require a large amount of manpower and brutality to keep the locals in line.

They could also use the threat of WMDs and atrocities to keep the former US territories in line, but I'm not sure they're willing to go quite that far.

Still, these are the kind of questions the NCR is going to have start asking itself now that new information is coming to light.

The NCR will have to start with co-opting whatever government organisations/institutions are around

Starting with education. Elementary, High School and College all gotta be co-opted and the kids have to be blasted with Anti-Enclave propaganda 24/7.

If most of it is privatised education, they can still co-opt that

Can also go try making it "Cool and Edgy" to be an NCR supporter and go on about how evil the Enclave is/was and even apologising to believing the horrible shit regarding the CCP allies
 
The NCR is going to need more time than it will have with any conquered population to do anything but make more freedom fighters. Re-educating a generation is the work of decades and I would be surprised if they have years of occupation before the are streaming east once again. Sadly that won't stop frustrated or overly nationalistic troops from taking things out on the populace. Especially if they object to the looting of their technology and infrastructure.
 
The NCR is going to need more time than it will have with any conquered population to do anything but make more freedom fighters. Re-educating a generation is the work of decades and I would be surprised if they have years of occupation before the are streaming east once again. Sadly that won't stop frustrated or overly nationalistic troops from taking things out on the populace. Especially if they object to the looting of their technology and infrastructure.

It already looks like the occupational forces are getting pissed at the locals for not "cooperating" and outright shooting at them back already

Hell, you can find other reasons to resent the Enclave's people, like one simple fact

They live better lives than them and have a better economy and better neighbourhoods, to the point they don't even bother doing shit like forcibly recruiting people into the Armed Forces.

Raiding the Enclave and taking their resources, like the farms, will alleviate the stress caused by that resentment
 
It should also be known that the NCR is having the exact same problem Rome had by the time it started flying apart: it requires constant expansion. Expand at all costs and that is a problem for stability... The Enclave on the other hand... well... they've been doing Early Rome's 'slow expansion' (i.e. it took 100 years to reach the Bay of Naples) and building everything up to support the next wave of expansion.
 
It is interesting to see how the NCR has adopted a policy of expanding to then use the new lands to enrich core/key areas and when that no longer offers benefits expand again. That is to say their does not appear to be wide-scale efforts to build up things across the territory from the bottom up like the US. It let them build up a strong core area and centralize things, but the prosperity will have issues reaching the average citizen.
 
The NCR is going to need more time than it will have with any conquered population to do anything but make more freedom fighters. Re-educating a generation is the work of decades and I would be surprised if they have years of occupation before the are streaming east once again. Sadly that won't stop frustrated or overly nationalistic troops from taking things out on the populace. Especially if they object to the looting of their technology and infrastructure.

The looting et al. isn't intended to start until the NCR has achieved total victory. Which is frankly beyond their means right now.

It should also be known that the NCR is having the exact same problem Rome had by the time it started flying apart: it requires constant expansion. Expand at all costs and that is a problem for stability... The Enclave on the other hand... well... they've been doing Early Rome's 'slow expansion' (i.e. it took 100 years to reach the Bay of Naples) and building everything up to support the next wave of expansion.

E-USA takes a bunch of direct inspiration from Rome, in addition to the general American inheritance from that empire. What do you expect when a man called Augustus was one of its first great leaders in a long while?

It is interesting to see how the NCR has adopted a policy of expanding to then use the new lands to enrich core/key areas and when that no longer offers benefits expand again. That is to say their does not appear to be wide-scale efforts to build up things across the territory from the bottom up like the US. It let them build up a strong core area and centralize things, but the prosperity will have issues reaching the average citizen.

A key problem is that the natural barriers that protect the NCR's core from easy invasion also make it hard to build infrastructure et al. connecting it to its frontier - and the NCR is operating at reduced capacity from pre-War California owing to the lack of Pacific trade.
 
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The looting et al. isn't intended to start until the NCR has achieved total victory. Which is frankly beyond their means right now.
The NCR may not be planning to loot or destroy right now, but I suspect the Brotherhood of Steel is a different matter. I have a bad feeling about those planed attacks on the Enclave industrial cities. I remember how they dealt with the NCR's gold reserve, and I wonder if they plan something similar to the industrial areas of those cities.
 
The NCR may not be planning to loot or destroy right now, but I suspect the Brotherhood of Steel is a different matter. I have a bad feeling about those planed attacks on the Enclave industrial cities. I remember how they dealt with the NCR's gold reserve, and I wonder if they plan something similar to the industrial areas of those cities.

The Enclave’s people already heard lots of stories/propaganda regarding the Brotherhood and their obsession with keeping tech away from people lest they destroy themselves

They’ll be proving that shit true soon

Expect something like a blackout due to the powerplants having long been turned off and taken apart weeks/months into occupation and maybe things like going to the local hospital or appliance store and taking away vital equipment
 
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The Brotherhood isn't meaning to occupy, but to raid.

And probably make it so that the “misguided and oppressed” peoples of the Enclave don’t have the tech to rebuild as they’ll just destroy themselves with it

I think a debate with guys who know actual Pre-War History will point out how the Brotherhood is ignoring the part the CCP had in it
 
Another thing that must be understood that the Brotherhood of Steel is not a completely unified entity. While their 'mission' is to keep specific high-techs out of reach of the average wastelander, how they go about it depends on the 'chapter'. Some of them are real orthodox folks, some are far more willing to trade knowledge for tech, it just heavily depends on the chapter.

That is why -when I get my Fallout fic going- the Lyons Chapter of the Brotherhood is willing to chance it by working with the Phoenix Faction of the Enclave and both would be willing to develop the Terran Starship Command. Both, in this case, are liberal as can be with both factions and understood that being elitist assholes (for the Lyons Chapter) or genocidal assholes (for the Phoenix Enclave) is not only bad for them, but bad for everyone else and their missions.

It also doesn't help that the Brotherhood Orthodoxy has this tendency to send out anyone that didn't agree with them to what are essentially suicide missions...
 
Heh, that's certainly something to take into account.
From what I can tell, after the founders of the Brotherhood of Steel died out, the West Coast kept sliding deeper and deeper into orthodoxy and this included trying to keep ideological purity. Sending non-orthodox factions to suicide missions appears to be the MO when it comes to this. The only reason that the West BoS joined up with the Lyons Chapter in the events of FO4 is that the West Coast had become an NCR stronghold and they had literally nowhere else to go.

The Chicago Chapter from Tactics indicated that the idea of recruiting from the locals is considered 'heresy' within the West BoS and what would become the Lyons Chapter basically went Blood Ravens in how they set out to do their mission and help the locals (aka the 'oh, we cleaned out a dangerous raider/super mutant stronghold and found all this high-tech gear, helping the locals with their raider/super mutant problem is just happy happenstance' method) and this -eventually- got them cut off from West BoS. This led to the Lyons Chapter starting to recruit from the locals -even if it is comparatively restricted compared to the Chicago Chapter- and seriously thinking about trading knowledge for tech. I wouldn't be surprised that the reason that the Lyons Chapter backed Project Purity in the first place was that it helps to solidify the chapter's position in the Capital Wasteland and helps the locals (I wouldn't be surprised that a lot of local water purification plants were starting to break down in the Capital Wasteland)
E-USA takes a bunch of direct inspiration from Rome, in addition to the general American inheritance from that empire. What do you expect when a man called Augustus was one of its first great leaders in a long while?
Given that Augustus also led to some serious reforms to Rome that were -in the long term- a mixed bag (the land reform got a lot of feathers ruffled in the landed Patritians and ensured that Rome would need to constantly expand to ensure the soldiers got that land and the tax system was effective enough to keep things moving but eventually broke down, leading to Justinian the Great to go with a very 'rich people, you either pay your taxes or my taxmen will torture you until you pay and you get branded as a tax evader' policy)...
 
I don't recall if it's fanon or canon, but my understanding was that the Brotherhood's eastern expeditions were literally a pressure valve.

Whenever social pressure would build towards them changing their ways, the conservative or Orthodox leadership would basically organize an expedition that oh so very conveniently included those agitating for change.

But instead of maintaining the status quo as they likely intended, all they managed to do is stew in their own juices and become increasingly fanatical in their dogma. Ultimately ending up with a leader who drank deeply from the Kool-Aid pitcher. Who very quickly went full retard and tried to demand that the NCR give up their technology, declaring war when the NCR rightly refused.

With that kind of precedent, assuming these expeditions realized what was going on and decided to make use of it themselves, I wouldn't be surprised if the forces earmarked for this operation are made up of Brotherhood elements considered to be more expendable. Not that they're intended to lose. Merely that they're acceptable losses as long as their goals are achieved.

Though their operation seems to be quite hilariously optimistic. As it's been described, I'd be genuinely surprised if they didn't suffer catastrophic losses.
 
Though their operation seems to be quite hilariously optimistic. As it's been described, I'd be genuinely surprised if they didn't suffer catastrophic losses.
When you were the only guys walking around in PA that turn you into combat demigods for two centuries, overconfidence is bound to seep in even if the situation is no longer the same. Before now the Brotherhood has not met significant numbers of superior PA in combat.
 
When you were the only guys walking around in PA that turn you into combat demigods for two centuries, overconfidence is bound to seep in even if the situation is no longer the same. Before now the Brotherhood has not met significant numbers of superior PA in combat.

When other people have the same tech level if not higher than you, you start looking pretty silly for trying to go all "Hidden Elf Village" with the occasional us "Elves" are wiser and more refined and better than you dirty animals
 
When you were the only guys walking around in PA that turn you into combat demigods for two centuries, overconfidence is bound to seep in even if the situation is no longer the same. Before now the Brotherhood has not met significant numbers of superior PA in combat.
Given that a guy in T-51B or T-45D PA can go all 'chad in a warzone' and come out with nary a scratch on them because you'll need heavy laser, anti-material caliber, gauss, anti-tank, or (later) plasma weapons to even have a hope to harm the PA...

... you get power issues.

Then there is the fact that a T-60 series PA managed to be in the fucking plasma exhaust of a plasma rocket for almost a minute straight... and the T-60 is implied to be simply a T-45 series but better in the same way that the X-0X/APA series of PA is the T-51 series but better.

Yeah, have fun with that implication!
I don't recall if it's fanon or canon, but my understanding was that the Brotherhood's eastern expeditions were literally a pressure valve.

Whenever social pressure would build towards them changing their ways, the conservative or Orthodox leadership would basically organize an expedition that oh so very conveniently included those agitating for change.

But instead of maintaining the status quo as they likely intended, all they managed to do is stew in their own juices and become increasingly fanatical in their dogma. Ultimately ending up with a leader who drank deeply from the Kool-Aid pitcher. Who very quickly went full retard and tried to demand that the NCR give up their technology, declaring war when the NCR rightly refused.

With that kind of precedent, assuming these expeditions realized what was going on and decided to make use of it themselves, I wouldn't be surprised if the forces earmarked for this operation are made up of Brotherhood elements considered to be more expendable. Not that they're intended to lose. Merely that they're acceptable losses as long as their goals are achieved.

Though their operation seems to be quite hilariously optimistic. As it's been described, I'd be genuinely surprised if they didn't suffer catastrophic losses.
Well, how I see it is mostly due to actions in canon (main series) and semi-canon sources (Tactics). I wouldn't be surprised that it didn't start until the Founders were out of living memory (so, three or four generations down the line). As fewer and fewer pragmatic leaders, well, lead the Brotherhood, the more this sort of thing came up...

I wouldn't be surprised that the closer you got to the West Coast (specifically California), the more orthodox the BoS chapter would be.

In canon Fallout 4, the reason that the Lyons Chapter became the head honcho of the BoS is that the Orthodox got so soundly trounced that they had no other place to go. Basically, they crawled and begged to be allowed in which gave the Lyons Chapter supreme leverage and thus forced their reforms on the Orthodox. Remember, the entire 'knight oversees recruit' thing isn't new if anything it is probably something that Elder Lyons cooked up as his war against the Super Mutants kept draining his manpower reserves. Aspirants go through checks then probably get sent to a squad who would overlook the rest of the process. What little Maxson did was probably streamline and made it the methodology of choice for those outside of the BoS.
When other people have the same tech level if not higher than you, you start looking pretty silly for trying to go all "Hidden Elf Village" with the occasional us "Elves" are wiser and more refined and better than you dirty animals
Problem is, in this case, that most of civilization is still not that technologically capable yet. To give a GURPS analogy, the vast majority of the "outside world's" tech base is several tech levels lower than what is required to mass-produce the good stuff, leaving only salvage and stupidly expensive slow-production of somewhat wide quality of the good stuff. It also doesn't help that these civilizations tended to also damage technology in their scrummaging of the ruins of the old world. This isn't Battletech or Warhammer 40k where archeo-tech is a reality, this is within a period of two centuries and change by FO4.

The majority of post-war civilizations are getting there, but for all their bumbling about it'll take a better part of a century to do so even during New Vegas.
 
Kill enough Neo-enclave officials,including president,widraw - and they would fight each other over who rigtfully president is.
 
Alternatively, the E-USA would follow the constitution and allow either Congress to choose, or follow the current line of succession (here's ours today, but not sure if they'd have the same departments)
1Vice President
2Speaker of the House of Representatives
3President pro tempore of the Senate
4Secretary of State
5Secretary of the Treasury
6Secretary of Defense
7Attorney General
8Secretary of the Interior
9Secretary of Agriculture
10Secretary of Commerce
11Secretary of Labor
12Secretary of Health and Human Services
13Secretary of Housing and Urban Development
14Secretary of Transportation
15Secretary of Energy
16Secretary of Education
17Secretary of Veterans Affairs
18Secretary of Homeland Security
At least one person from this list is the "designated survivor" in any case where they'd all be together, and is not in the same place as the others, explicitly to prevent full executive decapitation.

"Neo-enclave" truly sees itself as the pre-war US, just with large portions of it's territories under control of hostile insurrectionists. Though, I guess that the Brotherhood/NCR could believe that civil war would result from a fully successful decapitation strike.
 

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