Will the Advent of Drone Warfare bring back the Gun Air Defense

Zachowon · Dec 29, 2023

Marduk said:
Depends on model and engine. The most tend to be 100-400 kph depending on type and payload, usually on the lower end of that. Once you get to bigger serious drones like Reaper and jet powered ones those go faster.

It's already done with whatever is available. No need for airburst munitions, just good fire control.

Czech Excalibur Army to Manufacture Artisan Vehicles With ZPU-2 Guns for the Ukrainian Army | Defense Express

Such vehicles proved effective against iranian Shahed drones

en.defence-ua.com

Shahed arnt small though.
I am thinking small as in civilian bought ones

Captain X · Dec 29, 2023

Wonder if something like a phalanx system that used a smaller caliber bullet would work well against drones. Could you spam .22LR at them?

Agent23 · Dec 29, 2023

Marduk said:
Depends on model and engine. The most tend to be 100-400 kph depending on type and payload, usually on the lower end of that. Once you get to bigger serious drones like Reaper and jet powered ones those go faster.

It's already done with whatever is available. No need for airburst munitions, just good fire control.

Czech Excalibur Army to Manufacture Artisan Vehicles With ZPU-2 Guns for the Ukrainian Army | Defense Express

Such vehicles proved effective against iranian Shahed drones

en.defence-ua.com

You do realize you can get a combo swarm of cheap drones and more expensive and heavier drones that launch a large payload of shower rented missiles while the Cannon fodder distracts the point defense, including your precious lazors, right?
And add to that some laser or GPS/Glonass/that Chinese/EU/India equivalent guided artillery rounds, right?

And it will be really funny if the first few drones explode and spray reflective chaff thet interferes with lazors to make it a bit harder to hit stuff.

There are so many fun variations to try out.

Wonder if something like a phalanx system that used a smaller caliber bullet would work well against drones. Could you spam .22LR at them?

As the shumnopoliak pointed out already, smaller calibers have a range problem.

But maybe they can work as a last ditch style defense if they are put into something like Metal storm, and have explosives inside thet blow up on contact.

Marduk · Dec 29, 2023

Agent23 said:
You do realize you can get a combo swarm of cheap drones and more expensive and heavier drones that launch a large payload of shower rented missiles while the Cannon fodder distracts the point defense, including your precious lazors, right?
And add to that some laser or GPS/Glonass/that Chinese/EU/India equivalent guided artillery rounds, right?

And it will be really funny if the first few drones explode and spray reflective chaff thet interferes with lazors to make it a bit harder to hit stuff.

There are so many fun variations to try out.

Have you considered professional buzzword salad production? You can do it.
Yeah, yeah, throwing huge amount of 4 types of munitions plus annoying teenager bullshit into an attack can probably overcome a SHORAD vehicle, but at what cost

The mere concentration of such assets might get them hit preemptively.

Zachowon said:
Shahed arnt small though.
I am thinking small as in civilian bought ones

Avengers probably engage those with .50cal that doesn't have airburst.

Captain X said:
Wonder if something like a phalanx system that used a smaller caliber bullet would work well against drones. Could you spam .22LR at them?

The effective range and so also protection radius would be terrible.

Agent23 · Dec 29, 2023

Marduk said:
Have you considered professional buzzword salad production? You can do it.
Yeah, yeah, throwing huge amount of 4 types of munitions plus annoying teenager bullshit into an attack can probably overcome a SHORAD vehicle, but at what cost
The mere concentration of such assets might get them hit preemptively.

Yup, sure, an extra truck deploying drones or even a longer rengr drone or two like what the Ukreinians are doing with baba Yaga will automatically cause someone to counter attack, I am sure.

And perhaps the target isn't just the pissing rat, but whatever it is protecting?

Moreover this is about speed and convergence of 2 types of assets.
3 classes of deomes, with one set carrying the shorter range suicide ones, the other carrying the missiles and the artillery.

I am looking forward for you to bring up statistics of the average troop dispersion and composition of force A and force B, where force A would be the ones with the pissrat and force be having lots of guns and drones.

Oh aod of course you have all sorts of missiles that might hit the targets while the drones are wasting force A's power and ammo, shumnopoliak.

Marduk · Dec 29, 2023

Agent23 said:
Yup, sure, an extra truck deploying drones or even a longer rengr drone or two like what the Ukreinians are doing with baba Yaga will automatically cause someone to counter attack, I am sure.

And perhaps the target isn't just the pissing rat, but whatever it is protecting?

Moreover this is about speed and convergence of 2 types of assets.
3 classes of deomes, with one set carrying the shorter range suicide ones, the other carrying the missiles and the artillery.

I am looking forward for you to bring up statistics of the average troop dispersion and composition of force A and force B, where force A would be the ones with the pissrat and force be having lots of guns and drones.

Oh aod of course you have all sorts of missiles that might hit the targets while the drones are wasting force A's power and ammo, shumnopoliak.

EMS fratricide. Read about it. While every drone hyping soyface talks about locust like drone swarms since at least a decade, only boring people talk about why no one does them and the practical drone attacks tend to be more on the scale of handful or few rarely at the same place and time.

I wouldn't even think of considering your drunken rantings worthy of spending time on collecting and bringing up actual statistics for you to bullshit at when i just need 2 sentences.

Agent23 · Dec 30, 2023

Marduk said:
EMS fratricide. Read about it.

Nope, sorry, go google it, from you, a serial googler and poster of the first crap you find, ain't gonna cut it.
You can post an actual peer reviewed article about its shortcomings.

Marduk said:
While every drone hyping soyface talks about locust like drone swarms since at least a decade, only boring people talk about why no one does them and the practical drone attacks tend to be more on the scale of handful or few rarely at the same place and time.

I am sure that your average deome can somehow a fit a narrow beam transmitter, or use packet switching, CSMA/CD, and frequency hopping, you know like a lot of commercial tech does.
And failing that there is the option to put in just enough brains into the thing to have it do basic evsdion patterns and home in on a target for which the basic coordinates have been fed into it.

Marduk said:
I wouldn't even think of considering your drunken rantings worthy of spending time on collecting and bringing up actual statistics for you to bullshit at when i just need 2 sentences.

Ah, and here we have more classic Shumnopoliak trying to claim higher ground and fake authority, like usual.

Marduk · Dec 30, 2023

Agent23 said:
Nope, sorry, go google it, from you, a serial googler and poster of the first crap you find, ain't gonna cut it.
You can post an actual peer reviewed article about its shortcomings.

You can kiss my ass, you are not worth my time trying to explain to you things that you really seem to not want to understand.

Agent23 said:
I am sure that your average deome can somehow a fit a narrow beam transmitter, or use packet switching, CSMA/CD, and frequency hopping, you know like a lot of commercial tech does.

If it was so cheap and easy it would be done by default, it is a problem even in civilian use of those drones even in small numbers and without military grade EM warfare being spammed by everyone.
Sure, you can pack them with such fancy comm gear as the typical American drone that costs 6-7 digit dollars and make it very hard to jam, but newsflash pal, now your drone also costs as much as the typical American drone and now its not any cheaper than a Tomahawk.

Agent23 said:
And failing that there is the option to put in just enough brains into the thing to have it do basic evsdion patterns and home in on a target for which the basic coordinates have been fed into it.

Yeah, sure, put real time AI image analysis capable computer hardware and advanced nav in it, fuck cost, power and weight limits, who needs those, why not just reinvent the Reaper.

Agent23 said:
Ah, and here we have more classic Shumnopoliak trying to claim higher ground and fake authority, like usual.

And here we have classic idiot vatnik trying to be cool on the internet.

Jormungandr · Dec 30, 2023

Yeah, I'm thinking small-scale flak is going to make a comeback.

I mean, the platform used could be anything, from an old APC chassis and retired tanks to pickup trucks and simply modified cars, and the cost of manufacture would be pennies compared to more modern and advanced systems e.g. missiles.

Gotta admit, this war feels like another Spanish Civil War scenario: Nations, including Germany, used it to test out new doctrines, weapons, vehicles and planes, and combat paradigms (many of which would be built on/directed in WW2).

Agent23 · Dec 30, 2023

Marduk said:
You can kiss my ass, you are not worth my time trying to explain to you things that you really seem to not want to understand.

>Respect muh authoretheh.
>Listen and believe.
>You are too stupid to understand...
Ah, yes, the usual Shumnopoliak approach.

Marduk said:
If it was so cheap and easy it would be done by default, it is a problem even in civilian use of those drones even in small numbers and without military grade EM warfare being spammed by everyone.
Sure, you can pack them with such fancy comm gear as the typical American drone that costs 6-7 digit dollars and make it very hard to jam, but newsflash pal, now your drone also costs as much as the typical American drone and now its not any cheaper than a Tomahawk.

Yup, because there are no COTS velocimetrs, GPS eecrivers and credit card sized computers that have more power than a high end server from back in the day when the Predator and Reaper drones were first drveloped.

Marduk said:
Yeah, sure, put real time AI image analysis capable computer hardware and advanced nav in it, fuck cost, power and weight limits, who needs those, why not just reinvent the Reaper.

A simple series of if else statements is hardly a neural net.
Something like if(telemetry.lost() && posirion.inJammingzone()) {
Potential targets.goToClosestPotrntialandGoBoom()
}
Of course, date will have to be preloaded, and the local sensors would be limited, but if you have to do target selection so close to the enemy and in the matter of a few seconds, well, maybe your combat plan needs to be better. I mean, there are things like passive and active ways to detect targets, get bearings and the like.

Marduk said:
And here we have classic idiot vatnik trying to be cool on the internet.

>Ree, Chikagomestovski Shumnopoliak great! How dare you question Chikagomestovski Shumnopoliak.
>Ree, my enemy stupid putler troll.
>Ree, ree, ree.
> Respect Chikagomestovski Shumnopoliak authoretheh.

Oh, do shut up, you glorified e-janitor, we all know how much your "expertise" is worth.Big, round zero.You are just another egocentrical, reeing, opinionated rando on the net, perhaps noisier and more of a suck up that most, certainly angrier, quicker to start flinging insults and more opinionated and autistic than most, that is for sure.
You lost any credibility with me the moment you decided to ree "commie" and "Russian" at me, because you had nothing but ad hominems, oh and I am still awaiting to hear about the Chikafomestowshy Shumnopolski method of applying coal to the Haber process.

Zachowon · Dec 30, 2023

Agent23 said:
>Respect muh authoretheh.
>Listen and believe.
>You are too stupid to understand...
Ah, yes, the usual Shumnopoliak approach.

Yup, because there are no COTS velocimetrs, GPS eecrivers and credit card sized computers that have more power than a high end server from back in the day when the Predator and Reaper drones were first drveloped.

A simple series of if else statements is hardly a neural net.
Something like if(telemetry.lost() && posirion.inJammingzone()) {
Potential targets.goToClosestPotrntialandGoBoom()
}
Of course, date will have to be preloaded, and the local sensors would be limited, but if you have to do target selection so close to the enemy and in the matter of a few seconds, well, maybe your combat plan needs to be better. I mean, there are things like passive and active ways to detect targets, get bearings and the like.

>Ree, Chikagomestovski Shumnopoliak great! How dare you question Chikagomestovski Shumnopoliak.
>Ree, my enemy stupid putler troll.
>Ree, ree, ree.
> Respect Chikagomestovski Shumnopoliak authoretheh.

Oh, do shut up, you glorified e-janitor, we all know how much your "expertise" is worth.Big, round zero.You are just another egocentrical, reeing, opinionated rando on the net, perhaps noisier and more of a suck up that most, certainly angrier, quicker to start flinging insults and more opinionated and autistic than most, that is for sure.

I don't think you understand the kind of sensors needed for that.
You would have to have a system that has an in built identification system, like what the Jav has, on a small drone, as well as have one that would not be weighed down by what would equal 20 something pounds. Which is a lot for a drone.

Add in most drones that have the capability you are talking about are roughly the size if a shahed if not bigger.
Which means an easier target.

Yes we have small chip.

Also, the US is developing drones that do what the reaper and predator do, but better and they arnt even that small.

Small drones are horrible against any type of jamming due to the nature of the drones.
Unless they are one way programmable, but then they would not be able to target based off what is seem, and to target dynamically you eiuld have to have some sort of control, which means is jammable.

FPV drones are controlled, and putting a sensor on it like what the jav has would mean you would have to manually choose the target it is to hit after it loses connection, if you can see what it is by then.

Agent23 · Dec 30, 2023

Zachowon said:
I don't think you understand the kind of sensors needed for that.
You would have to have a system that has an in built identification system, like what the Jav has, on a small drone, as well as have one that would not be weighed down by what would equal 20 something pounds. Which is a lot for a drone.

You are not thinking the problem through.
Do you need an "identification l" system, which I would assume is some form of optical recognitions for the terminal stage, or just a sufficiently good bearing and a proximity fuse or contact detonation?
You do not need every single drone to hit a target, you need to be lucky enough once or twice after the parts of the swarm going in simultaneously go into local control mode.

And you do not need to be perfect, you do not need to recognize the exact shape of a Stryker or Bradley, you merely have to recognize enough of its characteristics to know wit an acceptable margin of error that you have to hit it and go boom. This can come from the thermal profile of muzzle flared or from a rough shape of the hull done via a simplified image recognition, noting overly fancy, no need for a neural net or other fuzzy logic, a simple DAG with weighted edges could likely yield sufficiently good results given enough input from a more advanced "spotter" drone and other pre-loaded
Furthdrmore, not all A.I. models are as bloated as the stuff you might see and do not necessarily require huge amounts of computing power.
What is in the model is what is important.

Zachowon said:
Add in most drones that have the capability you are talking about are roughly the size if a shahed if not bigger.
Which means an easier target.

Not every drone deployed needs to be as capable as you assume, in my opinion. As I said, give the smaller decoy and Cannon fodder ones just enough brains and sensors to follow a preplanned of light path or get some guidance from an external source.

Zachowon said:
Yes we have small chip.

Chips have gotten consistently smaller, software has improved, the only actually bulky bits at some of the sensors.

And the damned Russkies had swarms of missiles working cooperatively since the 80s.

Zachowon said:
Also, the US is developing drones that do what the reaper and predator do, but better and they arnt even that small.

Small drones are horrible against any type of jamming due to the nature of the drones.
Unless they are one way programmable, but then they would not be able to target based off what is seem, and to target dynamically you eiuld have to have some sort of control, which means is jammable.

Of really, as I said, you need to crap a rough model of reality bases on more complex data into it, then let it do adjustments based on discrerized input.

Zachowon said:
FPV drones are controlled, and putting a sensor on it like what the jav has would mean you would have to manually choose the target it is to hit after it loses connection, if you can see what it is by then.

The Russians managed to equip their drones with night vision, and thermal imagers.and we have miniature thermal imaging cameras you can pair with your phone.

Marduk · Dec 30, 2023

Agent23 said:
>Respect muh authoretheh.
>Listen and believe.
>You are too stupid to understand...
Ah, yes, the usual Shumnopoliak approach.

Classic retarded vatnik whining.

Agent23 said:
Yup, because there are no COTS velocimetrs, GPS eecrivers and credit card sized computers that have more power than a high end server from back in the day when the Predator and Reaper drones were first drveloped.

And they are giving the best ones for free to drone swarm fanboys i'm sure, and the drones will still cost 2000$ when you put enough sensors and comm systems to turn them into a "we have drone F-35 at home" smart weapon.

Agent23 said:
A simple series of if else statements is hardly a neural net.
Something like if(telemetry.lost() && posirion.inJammingzone()) {
Potential targets.goToClosestPotrntialandGoBoom()
}
Of course, date will have to be preloaded, and the local sensors would be limited, but if you have to do target selection so close to the enemy and in the matter of a few seconds, well, maybe your combat plan needs to be better. I mean, there are things like passive and active ways to detect targets, get bearings and the like.

How is it going to get any non-garbage position data when GPS is being jammed, and so how will it know where it is in relation to the potential?
Nice, you are trying to be clever and reinvent the INS, a vital fallback guidance of many of the actually good smart weapons. But i think you can already tell the problem, you can have cheap INS or good INS, but there is no INS that's cheap and good, and the really good kind that's put on fighters and on hi end missiles can cost more than a good car, and small cheap drones would need the good kind because crap INS has accuracy that's "close enough" only if you are slinging kilotons.

Agent23 said:
>Ree, Chikagomestovski Shumnopoliak great! How dare you question Chikagomestovski Shumnopoliak.
>Ree, my enemy stupid putler troll.
>Ree, ree, ree.
> Respect Chikagomestovski Shumnopoliak authoretheh.

Stop wasting your keyboard to type this vatnik retard screeds, have some respect for technology.

Agent23 said:
Oh, do shut up, you glorified e-janitor, we all know how much your "expertise" is worth.Big, round zero.You are just another egocentrical, reeing, opinionated rando on the net, perhaps noisier and more of a suck up that most, certainly angrier, quicker to start flinging insults and more opinionated and autistic than most, that is for sure.

Oh fuck off bored internet vatnik whose mental development got stuck at 14 and whines about others being opinionated because they don't agree with his exceptionally shitty opinions...

Agent23 said:
The Russians managed to equip their drones with night vision, and thermal imagers.and we have miniature thermal imaging cameras you can pair with your phone.

Thanks for voluntarily proving in no uncertain terms that you have no fucking idea what are you talking about. Surely that 32x32 pixel cheap thermal meant for PCB testing, door security and other fucking around is going to be useful *for anything* at distances of hundreds of meters, if not kilometers (for drone observation you probably want kilometers really) and all the FLIRs that actually work at such ranges and cost a fortune are just le evil MIC bloat, no one needs those.
Here's an example of civilian thermals that have some actual military utility:

Pulsar Merger LRF XP50 2.5-20x Thermal Imaging Binocular, Color: Black w/ Free Shipping — 2 models

Shop Pulsar Merger LRF XP50 2.5-20x Thermal Imaging Binocular | Be The First To Review Pulsar Merger LRF XP50 2.5-20x Thermal Imaging Binocular + Free Shipping over $49.

www.opticsplanet.com

You can even have confirmation of that thanks to the fun sticker:
Government Export Restriction This item may be regulated for export by the U.S. Department of State or the U.S. Department of Commerce.
Now the important stats:
Long detection range up to 1800 m
High-definition thermal imaging sensor with 640x480 pixel
~~$6,485.99~~ Save $587.02
A small discount on this thing is more than the whole value of a cheap FPV.

Pulsar Thermion 2 LRF XL50 1.75-14x50mm Thermal Imaging Rifle Scope, Color: Black w/ Free S&H — 2 models

Shop Pulsar Thermion 2 LRF XL50 1.75-14x50mm Thermal Imaging Rifle Scope | 5 Star Rating on 1 Review for Pulsar Thermion 2 LRF XL50 1.75-14x50mm Thermal Imaging Rifle Scope + Free...

www.opticsplanet.com

And that one is for over 2km, would be nice to repurpose for drones. Nice, but not cheap as you can see.

Zachowon · Dec 30, 2023

Agent23 said:
You are not thinking the problem through.
Do you need an "identification l" system, which I would assume is some form of optical recognitions for the terminal stage, or just a sufficiently good bearing and a proximity fuse or contact detonation?
You do not need every single drone to hit a target, you need to be lucky enough once or twice after the parts of the swarm going in simultaneously go into local control mode.

Agent23 said:
And you do not need to be perfect, you do not need to recognize the exact shape of a Stryker or Bradley, you merely have to recognize enough of its characteristics to know wit an acceptable margin of error that you have to hit it and go boom. This can come from the thermal profile of muzzle flared or from a rough shape of the hull done via a simplified image recognition, noting overly fancy, no need for a neural net or other fuzzy logic, a simple DAG with weighted edges could likely yield sufficiently good results given enough input from a more advanced "spotter" drone and other pre-loaded
Furthdrmore, not all A.I. models are as bloated as the stuff you might see and do not necessarily require huge amounts of computing power.
What is in the model is what is important.

So how do you defeat passive radio and GPS jamming which will be deployed?
because any kind of initial gudianxe once it loses connection will require GPS, and that GPS can be jammed and you would have to require it to be visually guided.

the issue with using say a muzzle flash, is unlike in movies and games, they arnt bright for a long time. Often quick and over with.
as well as it would basically make it in distuigisable from neraby flashes or fires.

Even simple image recognition is useless even with thermals due to what the military use to break up shapes.
you can make a Stryker look completely diffrent witb some qdded gear on the sides and a bunch of foilage.

Agent23 said:
Not every drone deployed needs to be as capable as you assume, in my opinion. As I said, give the smaller decoy and Cannon fodder ones just enough brains and sensors to follow a preplanned of light path or get some guidance from an external source.

any external source is a nevative bevause you are emitting a radio frequency, that can one be hammed and two be found.
pathing would be best

Add in the fact that any drones that would hve to be GPS or radio guided can now be jammed.
pathing being the best bet

Agent23 said:
Chips have gotten consistently smaller, software has improved, the only actually bulky bits at some of the sensors.

Sensors are the important part, and even the smallest cost more then a drone

Agent23 said:
And the damned Russkies had swarms of missiles working cooperatively since the 80s.

Drones are diffrent because they have to be controlled or have a ore programmed flight.
Anything like that would be easy to see at the current tech level we are at, as well as easy to prevent from being used in mass.

Agent23 said:
Of really, as I said, you need to crap a rough model of reality bases on more complex data into it, then let it do adjustments based on discrerized input.

The Russians managed to equip their drones with night vision, and thermal imagers.and we have miniature thermal imaging cameras you can pair with your phone.

Yes they have those small ones, but they are ineffective in a contested Peer to peer fight.
Due to jamming capabilities, especially GPS and Radio Frequency jamming

Agent23 · Dec 30, 2023

Zachowon said:
So how do you defeat passive radio and GPS jamming which will be deployed?
because any kind of initial gudianxe once it loses connection will require GPS, and that GPS can be jammed and you would have to require it to be visually guided.

Oh, really?
You will also have a GPS and other jammers along with the laser?

And in any case, we had guidance before GPS, you would need the initial coordinates, but if you know where the enemy is and what your speed and location is you can plot a course the old fashioned way.
Maybe with some limited visual terain matching.

Zachowon said:
the issue with using say a muzzle flash, is unlike in movies and games, they arnt bright for a long time. Often quick and over with.
as well as it would basically make it in distuigisable from neraby flashes or fires.

Lazors might bez though, especially if the camera on the drone sees infrared and thermal.

So, hest from the laser, laser radiation, the best form the working 60 mW or more powerful generator, etc.

Zachowon said:
Even simple image recognition is useless even with thermals due to what the military use to break up shapes.

Can you hide the heat from the laser and the power supply as well?

Ana don't underestimate situations where you have to fight an actually advanced, determined enemy, not idiots wearing flaps with leftovers on the desert.

Zachowon said:
you can make a Stryker look completely diffrent witb some qdded gear on the sides and a bunch of foilage.

Yeah, sure, depends on the terrain and the software.

Zachowon said:
any external source is a nevative bevause you are emitting a radio frequency, that can one be hammed and two be found.
pathing would be best

What?

Zachowon said:
Add in the fact that any drones that would hve to be GPS or radio guided can now be jammed.
pathing being the best bet

It is not like you can jam all radio and GPS 24/7 in an arbitrarily large area, and if you could it would invite bigger fish, like maybe ones shooting anti-radiation missiles.

Zachowon said:
Sensors are the important part, and even the smallest cost more then a drone

Told you, in my view the infrared flare and the extra hest form genrators will serve like a nice homing signal.

Zachowon said:
Drones are diffrent because they have to be controlled or have a ore programmed flight.

And as I said, I think a hybrid approach with some sensor improvement and I thermal guide ce for the terminal peotion of the flight + decoys could make your hypothrit striker's dsy pretty dark.

Zachowon said:
Anything like that would be easy to see at the current tech level we are at, as well as easy to prevent from being used in mass.

Maybe, maybe not, I amd suing the tech is old and apparently works.

Zachowon said:
Yes they have those small ones, but they are ineffective in a contested Peer to peer fight.
Due to jamming capabilities, especially GPS and Radio Frequency jamming

And I think you have an absolute limit to how long you can jam and what redius.

Or will you equip every small frontal unit with jammers and a laser equipped striker?

Agent23 · Dec 30, 2023

Marduk said:
Classic retarded vatnik whining.

And they are giving the best ones for free to drone swarm fanboys i'm sure, and the drones will still cost 2000$ when you put enough sensors and comm systems to turn them into a "we have drone F-35 at home" smart weapon.

There we go with the strawman again.
While I think drones give huge benefits, depending on the situation, and how they are integrated in the overall doctrine I don't recall saying that they can match 5gen fighters, yet.
But the benefits are many, with disposability and lower cost being the top ones.

Marduk said:
How is it going to get any non-garbage position data when GPS is being jammed, and so how will it know where it is in relation to the potential?

Obviously it will have a bearing and know it's open speed and direction and the last location it got a signal from. And terrain recognition is also a thing.
And have you ever thought about the fact that jamming basically means filling the band with crap so that legitimate signals can't go through?

And that signal strength is something that can be measured, and thet signals spread radially from a central point where the transmitter is?

My, or sounds like one man's jamming might be another's big red bull's eye, doesn't it?

Marduk said:
Nice, you are trying to be clever and reinvent the INS, a vital fallback guidance of many of the actually good smart weapons. But i think you can already tell the problem, you can have cheap INS or good INS, but there is no INS that's cheap and good, and the really good kind that's put on fighters and on hi end missiles can cost more than a good car, and small cheap drones would need the good kind because crap INS has accuracy that's "close enough" only if you are slinging kilotons.

As stated by you.

Marduk said:
Stop wasting your keyboard to type this vatnik retard screeds, have some respect for technology.

>Ree.
> More idiotic personal insults.
You do realize the more you do this shit the more you motovste me to respond in kind, don't you?

Marduk said:
Oh fuck off bored internet vatnik whose mental development got stuck at 14 and whines about others being opinionated because they don't agree with his exceptionally shitty opinions...

> More ree.

Marduk said:
Thanks for voluntarily proving in no uncertain terms that you have no fucking idea what are you talking about. Surely that 32x32 pixel cheap thermal meant for PCB testing, door security and other fucking around is going to be useful *for anything* at distances of hundreds of meters, if not kilometers (for drone observation you probably want kilometers really) and all the FLIRs that actually work at such ranges and cost a fortune are just le evil MIC bloat, no one needs those.

The range for that laser you cited is 2 kilometers.
The time to burn through is 2 seconds and you also have to reposition it to hit the next target.
And there is the elephant in the room, which is the fact that the laser is one big, shiny bull's eye on your Stryker's ass.

Marduk said:
Here's an example of civilian thermals that have some actual military utility:

Pulsar Merger LRF XP50 2.5-20x Thermal Imaging Binocular, Color: Black w/ Free Shipping — 2 models

Shop Pulsar Merger LRF XP50 2.5-20x Thermal Imaging Binocular | Be The First To Review Pulsar Merger LRF XP50 2.5-20x Thermal Imaging Binocular + Free Shipping over $49.

www.opticsplanet.com

You can even have confirmation of that thanks to the fun sticker:
Government Export Restriction This item may be regulated for export by the U.S. Department of State or the U.S. Department of Commerce.
Now the important stats:
Long detection range up to 1800 m
High-definition thermal imaging sensor with 640x480 pixel
~~$6,485.99~~ Save $587.02
A small discount on this thing is more than the whole value of a cheap FPV.

Pulsar Thermion 2 LRF XL50 1.75-14x50mm Thermal Imaging Rifle Scope, Color: Black w/ Free S&H — 2 models

Shop Pulsar Thermion 2 LRF XL50 1.75-14x50mm Thermal Imaging Rifle Scope | 5 Star Rating on 1 Review for Pulsar Thermion 2 LRF XL50 1.75-14x50mm Thermal Imaging Rifle Scope + Free...

www.opticsplanet.com

And that one is for over 2km, would be nice to repurpose for drones. Nice, but not cheap as you can see.

And how expensive I'd the Chinese knockoff?

Marduk · Dec 30, 2023

Agent23 said:
There we go with the strawman again.
While I think drones give huge benefits, depending on the situation, and how they are integrated in the overall doctrine I don't recall saying that they can match 5gen fighters, yet.
But the benefits are many, with disposability and lower cost being the top ones.

Well that's where your delusions come in. You can have cheap drones and you can have expensive drones, both have their pros and cons. But if you try to shove the capabilities of an expensive drone into a cheap drone it will absolutely stop being cheap. All these fancy capabilities you keep reinventing, sure, many of these fancy military drones that cost millions of dollars have them already. But that's exactly why they cost millions of dollars. The 1000$ drones don't have them, and if you give it to them, their price will rise accordingly.

Agent23 said:
Obviously it will have a bearing and know it's open speed and direction and the last location it got a signal from. And terrain recognition is also a thing.
And have you ever thought about the fact that jamming basically means filling the band with crap so that legitimate signals can't go through?

Yes, GPS+INS+TERCOM, great idea, exactly what Tomahawk uses. Don't you think those are pretty expensive? Ever wondered why?

Agent23 said:
And that signal strength is something that can be measured, and thet signals spread radially from a central point where the transmitter is?

My, or sounds like one man's jamming might be another's big red bull's eye, doesn't it?

Yeah, fly EM warfare aircraft with their equipment worth more than several fighter jets to precisely measure all these signals for triangulation with targeting grade precision through the same airspace attack drones head to target through, see what happens.
Double fun when your own drones also emit in the same frequencies and crap is crap, EM radiation has no nationality

Triple the fun, you do realize that drone command links, and especially video links have to be an even bigger bull's eye, because they have to reach with quality signal even when the drone is at enemy lines, while defensive jamming is good enough when it disrupts that even when drone is much closer to the target than to the control antenna?
The "it emits, it dies" theory is fun to wave around, but in practice it's much more complicated, and commercial drones of all things are in fact on the wrong side of it, if it was so easy the drone operators would be dying in droves.

Agent23 said:
As stated by you.

>Ree.
> More idiotic personal insults.
You do realize the more you do this shit the more you motovste me to respond in kind, don't you?

> More ree.

I know your usual bullshit, stick it back where it came from.

Agent23 said:
The range for that laser you cited is 2 kilometers.
The time to burn through is 2 seconds and you also have to reposition it to hit the next target.
And there is the elephant in the room, which is the fact that the laser is one big, shiny bull's eye on your Stryker's ass.

Where did i cite that?
What's this burn through time from, your imagination?
So, what are you going to do with that bullseye? Launch a missile at it? Wonder what it could possibly do to a missile...
And where is it written in stone that laser based SHORAD has to operate individually and stop infinite number strikes by itself and if it can't it's bad?

Agent23 said:
And how expensive I'd the Chinese knockoff?

Here's a better question, is there even a Chinese knockoff of equal performance?
That's the kind of crap Chinese still struggle with knocking off.

Agent23 · Dec 30, 2023

Marduk said:
*SNIP*

Sure, sure, because the defender will have all of that tech and it will be deployed i the entire theater of battle...

Obviously you don't get that besides doodads, you have such things like "logistics", "costs", "deployment plans" and so forth.

And that those are apparently completely and utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and you can just try and change the goal posts farther and farther.

Keep on with the autistic screeching, if you like, though, but as usual your credibility meter keeps on decrementing downwards, by the way, how expensive are those strawmen scarecrows you make constantly?

I might want a few for the farm.

Marduk · Dec 30, 2023

Agent23 said:
Sure, sure, because the defender will have all of that tech and it will be deployed i the entire theater of battle...

Obviously you don't get that besides doodads, you have such things like "logistics", "costs", "deployment plans" and so forth.

And you think the gun based SHORAD is, as opposed to those with lasers, cheap and plentiful?
Do you have any idea how much something like Gepard or Pantsir costs and what logistical demands they have?

Agent23 said:
And that those are apparently completely and utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and you can just try and change the goal posts farther and farther.

If only you knew anything about such things...

Agent23 said:
Keep on with the autistic screeching, if you like, though, but as usual your credibility meter keeps on decrementing downwards, by the way, how expensive are those strawmen scarecrows you make constantly?

I might want a few for the farm.

You are in no position to even stand next to my credibility with your retarded whining.

Agent23 · Dec 30, 2023

Marduk said:
And you think the gun based SHORAD is, as opposed to those with lasers, cheap and plentiful?
Do you have any idea how much something like Gepard or Pantsir costs and what logistical demands they have?

If only you knew anything about such things...

>Word salad of pointless cope, technobabel and strawmaning and alligning the details to whatever your bis is...

Marduk said:
You are in no position to even stand next to my credibility with your retarded whining.

So, haber process with coal, how does it work exactly?

Will the Advent of Drone Warfare bring back the Gun Air Defense

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!

Well-known member

Ни шагу назад!

Well-known member

Ни шагу назад!

Well-known member

Ни шагу назад!

Well-known member

The Midgard Wyrm

Ни шагу назад!

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!

Ни шагу назад!

Well-known member

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!

Ни шагу назад!

Ни шагу назад!

Well-known member

Ни шагу назад!

Well-known member

Ни шагу назад!

Users who are viewing this thread