Will the Advent of Drone Warfare bring back the Gun Air Defense

[Marduk]

Nit able to carry AS much as a helicopter

Bigger ones are in the works.

And they were made knowing SHORADs exist. The thing is, it's why we have HARMs that can be fired from helicopters, and things like that.

Non-radar SHORAD is getting only better and more common coz drones, sure, some desert rent-a-terrorists won't have much of that anytime soon, but near peer opponents...

It allows CAS organic to the Army and a loitering time higher then any drone, due to the fact they are not as capable in the environment we are currently.in, maneuverability wise

Drones can have insane loiter times and be organic to army. Even heli drones exist if nothing else.

 

[Zachowon]

Bigger ones are in the works.

Non-radar SHORAD is getting only better and more common coz drones, sure, some desert rent-a-terrorists won't have much of that anytime soon, but near peer opponents...

Drones can have insane loiter times and be organic to army. Even heli drones exist if nothing else.

Bigger ones are yes, but we are no where near the level that has them operate the same as a helicopter.

And there will just be an increase in countermeasures for helicopters in the near future.

Mainly because drones will not be capable enough for CAS in the same way

 

[Marduk]

Bigger ones are yes, but we are no where near the level that has them operate the same as a helicopter.

And there will just be an increase in countermeasures for helicopters in the near future.

Mainly because drones will not be capable enough for CAS in the same way

What countermeasures that helicopters can have can't be put on high end combat drones?
CAS in the strict sense you can do in permissive environments, but in something like Ukraine, you get attack helicopters relegated to the role of flying artillery using only long range weapons if they want to not take horrible losses.

 

[Sailor.X]

Well Loyal Wingman are gonna be deployed and controlled by Attack Helos.

BAE Systems’ Strix drone could be ‘loyal wingman’ for military helicopters

www.imeche.org

 

[Zachowon]

What countermeasures that helicopters can have can't be put on high end combat drones?
CAS in the strict sense you can do in permissive environments, but in something like Ukraine, you get attack helicopters relegated to the role of flying artillery using only long range weapons if they want to not take horrible losses.

What Sailor said is one way, another is actually the fact that it depends solely on the battlefield.
For instance in the US Army we use attack helicopters for a lot, and with the capability to use Spike A2G missiles, the giant bulb on the apache comes in handy. The Longbow enables the capability to be behind tree cover or a hill or building and allow them to fire.
Safer then a UCAV due to it being able to hide effectively.

Remember, the modern attack copters were made with contested air in mind

 

[Marduk]

What Sailor said is one way, another is actually the fact that it depends solely on the battlefield.
For instance in the US Army we use attack helicopters for a lot, and with the capability to use Spike A2G missiles, the giant bulb on the apache comes in handy. The Longbow enables the capability to be behind tree cover or a hill or building and allow them to fire.
Safer then a UCAV due to it being able to hide effectively.

Remember, the modern attack copters were made with contested air in mind

Longbow, Spike-ER, Spike-NLOS and other over the horizon ways of hitting for attack helicopter are all fine and dandy to get its engagement range above SHORAD... but when you have to suffer the price and complexity of full on over the horizon weapons, why have them on an expensive, specialized attack helicopter? At this point it's just yet another missile bus. Other helicopters, drones, even stealth jets can deliver similar ones, cheaper and/or better. You can get a F-35 or 4 Reapers for the price of 2 Apaches and may well get more use out of that.

Same goes for the "loyal wingman" program. Why bother squeezing the drone controller in the cramped confines of an attack helicopter, jet cockpit or tank, when you can put them on an AWACS, or command Blackhawk with 6 or 10 drone pilots onboard, or a bunker 300km from combat linked by Starlink?

If there was some kind of improved Commanche program with good radar and IR stealth it could do somethings drones still can't like going full EMCON but that was scrapped, and less stealthy helicopters for survival reasons are now being pushed into relying on similar long range weapons as aircraft, rocket artillery and drones use, making them redundant.

 

[Zachowon]

Longbow, Spike-ER, Spike-NLOS and other over the horizon ways of hitting for attack helicopter are all fine and dandy to get its engagement range above SHORAD... but when you have to suffer the price and complexity of full on over the horizon weapons, why have them on an expensive, specialized attack helicopter? At this point it's just yet another missile bus. Other helicopters, drones, even stealth jets can deliver similar ones, cheaper and/or better. You can get a F-35 or 4 Reapers for the price of 2 Apaches and may well get more use out of that.

This is actually due to branch independence. The Aemy doesn't have access to a 35 ir reapers.
We have Grey Eagles and Apaches.
And this also goes into a whole aspect of war often forgotten.
Air space.
as in the physical aspect.
you jave to manage all of that and the fact that if gets very cobvoluted by munitions and the like, especially by the US Army, who would employ a lot more stuff then what either side has currently.

Basically, because branch diffrences and what is alloted to be able to use certain air space available.

We dont want a jet to be flying in the way of an intercept or a drone to be in the way of artillery fire.

Same goes for the "loyal wingman" program. Why bother squeezing the drone controller in the cramped confines of an attack helicopter, jet cockpit or tank, when you can put them on an AWACS, or command Blackhawk with 6 or 10 drone pilots onboard, or a bunker 300km from combat linked by Starlink?

Closer to the fight and the ability to defend oneself is a huge aspect as too why.

If there was some kind of improved Commanche program with good radar and IR stealth it could do somethings drones still can't like going full EMCON but that was scrapped, and less stealthy helicopters for survival reasons are now being pushed into relying on similar long range weapons as aircraft, rocket artillery and drones use, making them redundant.

 

[Marduk]

This is actually due to branch independence. The Aemy doesn't have access to a 35 ir reapers.
We have Grey Eagles and Apaches.
And this also goes into a whole aspect of war often forgotten.
Air space.
as in the physical aspect.
you jave to manage all of that and the fact that if gets very cobvoluted by munitions and the like, especially by the US Army, who would employ a lot more stuff then what either side has currently.

Basically, because branch diffrences and what is alloted to be able to use certain air space available.

We dont want a jet to be flying in the way of an intercept or a drone to be in the way of artillery fire.

So that's petty politics and organization, Gray Eagles aren't that far off from what i'm thinking about.
Also like Gray Eagles, heli drones and all the other aircraft Army has it would likewise have to all use IFF systems too.

Closer to the fight and the ability to defend oneself is a huge aspect as too why.

Blackhawk and its future replacements are multirole, some variants get as close to a fight as an Apache, and can carry similar defenses too.
Drone pilots on such a command aircraft can be more comfortable and completely focused on piloting the drone, as opposed to a gunner on an Apache having to worry about doing gunner stuff and also handling the drone while his training hours also get divided between both.

 

[Zachowon]

So that's petty politics and organization, Gray Eagles aren't that far off from what i'm thinking about.
Also like Gray Eagles, heli drones and all the other aircraft Army has it would likewise have to all use IFF systems too.

No, not petty politics.
Actual issues encountered.
if you have an artillery mission in an area and you also have a drone that is flying in the arc of the artillery.
it is something that allows for use of all equipment withiut worrying about airspace being cloged up and even with IFF, in a high activity area. It doesnt always matter.

Blackhawk and its future replacements are multirole, some variants get as close to a fight as an Apache, and can carry similar defenses too.
Drone pilots on such a command aircraft can be more comfortable and completely focused on piloting the drone, as opposed to a gunner on an Apache having to worry about doing gunner stuff and also handling the drone while his training hours also get divided between both.

Eh, yes and no.
It would depend on branch.
AF would spend a lot and make them pilots while armt and its grey eagles, which are flown by a computer and it is basically auto pilot...

I would recommend you read Army FM 3.0 operatoosn to understand how all this works

 

[Marduk]

No, not petty politics.
Actual issues encountered.
if you have an artillery mission in an area and you also have a drone that is flying in the arc of the artillery.
it is something that allows for use of all equipment withiut worrying about airspace being cloged up and even with IFF, in a high activity area. It doesnt always matter.

A big issue with potential waste in low intensity conflicts...
With peer opponents involved, i see Ukrainians for example have a far more cavalier attitude, living with the tiny random chance that artillery may accidentally some drone.

Eh, yes and no.
It would depend on branch.
AF would spend a lot and make them pilots while armt and its grey eagles, which are flown by a computer and it is basically auto pilot...

I would recommend you read Army FM 3.0 operatoosn to understand how all this works

Wonder how much of a solution to this stuff was for Ukraine to make a separate branch for drones.

 

[Zachowon]

A big issue with potential waste in low intensity conflicts...
With peer opponents involved, i see Ukrainians for example have a far more cavalier attitude, living with the tiny random chance that artillery may accidentally some drone.

The scale is also diffrent as Ukraine doesn't have anywhere near as many aircraft sorties flying.
CAS ones as well as AD ones, SEAD, Dead,. Etc.
It is less drones and more of the fact that the US battle space, as most are lessons learned from Ukraine, is multi domain and a mobility aspect to it, and the aspect that we also have a much larger air force thay would be incocled and having to account for missiles, rockets, artillery, aircraft of various kinds, etc is a lot when you have the size the US does in equipment and the like.

Wonder how much of a solution to this stuff was for Ukraine to make a separate branch for drones.

In thier situation, it makes sense.
But the US has a larger sphere of influence and the aspect of having the largest space assets available.
That alone changes hoe things are done and other reasons for air space to be clear