Will the Advent of Drone Warfare bring back the Gun Air Defense

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
We know from the Ukraine Russia War and the current conflict with the Houthis. That drones are being used to soak up modern Air Defense Missiles. The common tactic is now to send up a swarm of drones at a target forcing the Target to expend million dollar missiles. Using a Million Dollar Missile to take out a drone that might have costed $20,000 Dollars is a big problem. Which makes the gun based air defense the most mass producible option right now. So what are your thoughts on the matter.
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
Yes, it already is, and will continue unless mass application of lasers in that role happens.
I have a hunch that the forward CIWS mount on the Burkes will once again have a Vulcan Phalanx. in the spot. The Big Wigs are seeing that all missile CIWS can't handle the Drone Swarms on a cost basis.
 

Buba

A total creep
I've seen such a discussion elsewhere. The money is on a mix of multibarreled HGM - to destroy - and ECM - to make the drones go out of control.
IMO the Vulcan is overkill.
 

UberIguana

Well-known member
It's already being done. The Terrahawk Paladin is one such example.
Terrahawk%20Paladin%20925%20001.jpg

MSI-Defence-Systems-to-present-Terrahawk-Paladin-VSHORAD-system-at-DSEI-2023-02.jpg
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
I've seen such a discussion elsewhere. The money is on a mix of multibarreled HGM - to destroy - and ECM - to make the drones go out of control.
IMO the Vulcan is overkill.
Well the rule of thumb is that anything that can handle missiles can also handle drones, and ships need missile handling CIWS anyway. Even single barrel weapons can handle drones with good fire control, especially larger calibers with AHEAD or similar rounds.
The Vulcan has adjustable RoF btw.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
SPAAG

Self-Propelled Anti-Air Gun.

It's at least as old as WWII, and a burst of 30mm flak shells are going to be as cheap or cheaper than a drone that's a meaningful threat. They aren't a perfect solution to the problem, but they help, and continued improvement in fire control will make them a deadlier and deadlier threat.

For ground vehicles, the other/more major change, is going to be increasing top armor on AFVs The Javelin and similar systems already had made a move in this direction necessary, this just makes it more urgent.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Yes, it already is, and will continue unless mass application of lasers in that role happens.
You mean like that Israeli system that the Palestinians managed to counter by putting reflective material on their missiles and making more cheap missiles?

Also, how do you plan to power and cool the lasers?
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
You mean like that Israeli system that the Palestinians managed to counter by putting reflective material on their missiles and making more cheap missiles?

Also, how do you plan to power and cool the lasers?
Lasers are already being added to some US Strikers as a DEAA platform. Alternate platform uses kinetic weaponry as a supplemental. Haven't seen any doctrine on them, but I imagine they'll be deployed in pairs to deal with varying threats. Lighter stuff to be handled by the laser and heavier drones by the kinetic weapons.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
You mean like that Israeli system that the Palestinians managed to counter by putting reflective material on their missiles and making more cheap missiles?
They can be cheap, but they aren't cheaper than electricity. Also "put reflective material on it" is teenage sci-fi fan level solution, physics don't work that way. You may get away with it when lasers are barely out of dazzler power range, but perfectly reflective materials aren't a thing outside of theoretical calculations, and even tiny inefficiencies, at higher power ranges mean degradation of the material and further degradation of its optical characteristics and in turn thermal failure of the material.
Also, how do you plan to power and cool the lasers?
The average armored vehicle comes with few hundred kilowatts of power generation if it's designed to be used with high powered electronics from its design stage, and if need be, few tons for a generator are available too.
If the laser needs more than that, it's probably on a ship which can also provide that sort of power.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
They can be cheap, but they aren't cheaper than electricity. Also "put reflective material on it" is teenage sci-fi fan level solution, physics don't work that way.
Try article from the Economist from a few years ago.
You may get away with it when lasers are barely out of dazzler power range, but perfectly reflective materials aren't a thing outside of theoretical calculations,
Who said anything about perfectly reflective.
You do not need prefect you need food enough to last for some of the drones to hit target.
Stop trying to build straemen.

I mean if only there was a cheap, abundant ablative material thet can be used as a heat shield at very high temperatures, since at least the 1960s, in actual spacecraft.
and even tiny inefficiencies, at higher power ranges mean degradation of the material and further degradation of its optical characteristics and in turn thermal failure of the material.
Ok, Turkish delight stretching.
The average armored vehicle comes with few hundred kilowatts of power generation if it's designed to be used with high powered electronics from its design stage, and if need be, few tons for a generator are available too.
If the laser needs more than that, it's probably on a ship which can also provide that sort of power.

> Article that goes in no depth onto the power generation or consumption or how many and what drones can be taken out.
Good job!


This is a 50kW diesel generator:

caterpillar-d50-4s_51217001_ab.jpg

Not the smallest bit of equipment, no?
And I doubt the storege is built into it.

Also, the fact that you can put 50kW into something does not mean you will get 50 kW out, since even when simply transferring power you will get some loss.

And as I said, extended use will likely necessitate cooling and you will also need to power sensors and the aiming system and make sure the whole thing is sufficiently screened and armored so it does not go boom due to shrapnel or becomes too juicy a target for large swarms hitting it from all directions and overwhelming it's ability to shoot stuff down.

I mean, it is not like the USA isn't experiencing huge cost overruns and slowdowns with stuff like things like those littoral combst ships and the F-35. :ROFLMAO:

So, my view. Can this stuff work on ships?
Certainly, especially if they are nuclear and more usage of SMRs on navsl construction becomes a thing.

Can lazors be used to protect fixed assets like bases?

Sure, why not.

Field conditions and mobile anti air units? Right now?

Press F to doubt.
 
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Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Try article from the Economist from a few years ago.

Who said anything about perfectly reflective.
You do not need prefect you need food enough to last for some of the drones to hit target.
Stop trying to build straemen.

I mean if only there was a cheap, abundant ablative material thet can be used as a heat shield at very high temperatures, since at least the 1960s, in actual spacecraft.
You stop building anything if you can't tell the difference between ablative and reflective.
First you go "haha Palestinians put reflective materials on drone countering lazors" and when i call you out on how that's a non-soution you go "but who said anything about perfectly reflective", go clown to children on the yard if you don't know what you're talking about. Now you are talking about putting essentialy bricks of armor on cheap drones, sure, that's gonna work great with their already low payload. The spacecraft in question aren't tiny cheap drones, they tend to be fucking heavy and moved around with rockets that cost millions.

Ok, Turkish delight stretching.


> Article that goes in no depth onto the power generation or consumption or how many and what drones can be taken out.
Good job!
It has enough power generation to indeed work and shoot down multiple drones or mortar rounds. Anything beyond that seems classified.
This is a 50kW diesel generator:

caterpillar-d50-4s_51217001_ab.jpg

Not the smallest bit of equipment, no?
And I doubt the storege is built into it.
Yeah, would be a problem if you are trying to turn a city car into a laser SHORAD, but it's not much for 20-30 ton armored vehicles like Stryker.

Also, the fact that you can put 50kW into something does not mean you will get 50 kW out, since even when simply transferring power you will get some loss.
Well it seems they are getting enough out.
And as I said, extended use will likely necessitate cooling and you will also need to power sensors and the aiming system and make sure the whole thing is sufficiently screened and armored so it does not go boom due to shrapnel or becomes too juicy a target for large swarms hitting it from all directions and overwhelming it's ability to shoot stuff down.
Yeah, don't fry your brain with your smartassing, everyone knows they need to power sensors, which doesn't take that much compared to the laser itself, but that comes with standard modern AA vehicle, lol. And no one forbids them from multiple vehicles cooperating to take down swarms :D
I mean, it is not like the USA isn't experiencing huge cost overruns and slowdowns with stuff like things like those littoral combst ships and the F-35. :ROFLMAO:
Whatever, lmao.
So, my view. Can this stuff work on ships?
Certainly, especially if they are nuclear and more usage of SMRs on navsl construction becomes a thing.

Can lazors be used to protect fixed assets like bases?

Sure, why not.

Field conditions and mobile anti air units? Right now?

Press F to doubt.
Yet there it is, in real world tests. Amazing, isn't it?
 

Jormungandr

The Midgard Wyrm
Founder
SPAAG

Self-Propelled Anti-Air Gun.

It's at least as old as WWII, and a burst of 30mm flak shells are going to be as cheap or cheaper than a drone that's a meaningful threat. They aren't a perfect solution to the problem, but they help, and continued improvement in fire control will make them a deadlier and deadlier threat.

For ground vehicles, the other/more major change, is going to be increasing top armor on AFVs The Javelin and similar systems already had made a move in this direction necessary, this just makes it more urgent.
Yeah, I think this is going to be another "body armour" scenario.

Armour used to be everything until gunpowder weapons basically made them obsolete, so the concept was pretty much discarded (especially seen since 17th/18th century conflicts, the World Wars, and conflicts like Korea and Vietnam) until the later half of the 20th, when kevlar vests and ceramic plates made body armour as a concept viable again versus gunpowder weaponry.

Flak is considered an old hat/obsolete technology with the advent of more specialized and accurate weapons, such as missiles and CIWS platforms, but now that drones are being used/spammed? Spending million dollar missiles and countless rounds of ammunition meant for beefier/heavier targets on such cheap, disposable pieces of equipment doesn't make sense.

So, we're likely going to see cheaper flak/lighter machine guns hooked up to cheaper sensors mounted on the back of ordinary trucks or light vehicles, and nations like the US which can throw money at anything will just further develop/implement laser weapons so they can pop these drones in the air without blinking an eye.
 

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