Aldarion
Neoreactionary Monarchist
Agreed.
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Imperium of Man vs Yuuzhan Vong
- Thread starter Aldarion
- Start date
I think it's be an interesting feature having them separate from the Warp and using a different mode of FTL. It'll help make up for their numbers or whatever and being a recent arrival in the galaxy. Their army list would need a lot of fleshing out but they should have a full fleet list for Battlefleet style space combat gaming.
Scooby Doo
Well-known member
The Vong would be basically Blanks so they can mess up Pyskers but TBH I don't see them doing jack to an artillery division or Titan.
Vong usually used Dovin Basils for defense, including against missiles and rockets and the like. The micro-black holes could deflect, drain or absorb incoming stuff. They had these giant reptiles the size of AT-AT walkers called Rakamat that had dovin basils built into their backs that provided protection for their ground forces it was transporting and was also a Volcano Cannon platform.
True, but dovin basals could only target a single incoming object at a time and were quickly exhausted by the equivalent of shotgun blasts -- to the point where even capital ship dovin basals could be quickly neutralized by a mere handful of starfighters using their guns in the so-called "splinter-shot" mode.
This type of defense is a very poor match for the "excessive volume of fire" tactics typically utilized by the Imperium and most other 40K factions...
This type of defense is a very poor match for the "excessive volume of fire" tactics typically utilized by the Imperium and most other 40K factions...
It was a squadron of X-Wings needed to overcome a Rakata in the Battle of Dantooine or Dubrillion or something like that. And that was with Luke Skywalker's "moving a Black Hole" lol feat. The amount of artillery needed for a time on target attack on a moving target would be significant to "quickly neutralize" something like that, certainly in the middle of a Air-Ground Battle.
It could get tricky the first few times the Imperium encountered the Vong, but the bottom line is that *even in Star Wars terms*, the Vong were really only a threat due to the New Republic's own incompetence. Outside of that, they really only had a couple of nasty tactical tricks, none of which would be as effective against 40K tech as they were against New Republic tech.
The kind of "high volume of fire overwhelming attack" that no-sells dovin basal defenses literally happens every time an Imperium warship fires its armament.
The kind of "high volume of fire overwhelming attack" that no-sells dovin basal defenses literally happens every time an Imperium warship fires its armament.
I wonder if it's a bit of villain decay though or Hero boosting?
I haven't read most of the NJO books and barely remember them but again in the Battle of Ithor, IIRC, it's been a while, the Imperial Remnant and New Republic brought in (checks Wookieepedia) almost twenty capitol ships including multiple Imperial Star Destroyers and Victorys and IIRC they put them in an inverted wedge formation to maximize the firepower saturation of their turbolasers (which were using lower powered turbolaser shots) to overwhelm the force of Vong cruisers which was still like half the size of the Imperial/Republic fleet and managed to only bring down like three of them (plus the flagship with an Interdictor gravity technobabble tactic).
I haven't read most of the NJO books and barely remember them but again in the Battle of Ithor, IIRC, it's been a while, the Imperial Remnant and New Republic brought in (checks Wookieepedia) almost twenty capitol ships including multiple Imperial Star Destroyers and Victorys and IIRC they put them in an inverted wedge formation to maximize the firepower saturation of their turbolasers (which were using lower powered turbolaser shots) to overwhelm the force of Vong cruisers which was still like half the size of the Imperial/Republic fleet and managed to only bring down like three of them (plus the flagship with an Interdictor gravity technobabble tactic).
New Republic incompetence in the EU is pretty much a factor that serves as a very thin in-character excuse for the out-of-character drive to make all the crises solved via act-of-plot gambits by a handful of familiar heroic protagonist characters.
But this leaves it with EU making it explicit that by the time of the Vong invasion, the New Republic had settled on a policy of not having *any* warships above an Imperial Star Destroyer equivalent remaining in active service -- and not just for a practical reason like 'minimizing maintenance costs in time of peace', but because the NR's political leadership outright declared that it was somehow *innately unethical* to have more powerful warships. And even ISD-equivalents were relatively rare, with the entire NRDF fleet being on the scale of mid-hundreds of ships on that level for the entire galaxy, whereas the Empire had *tens of thousands*.
In other words, the Vong were only a threat because the New Republic demilitarized to a delusional extreme. That joint task force you're talking about was the heaviest military force that the NR ever fielded (with the help of a peer ally) and it was barely on par with what would have once been considered a sector's assigned defense garrison.
But this leaves it with EU making it explicit that by the time of the Vong invasion, the New Republic had settled on a policy of not having *any* warships above an Imperial Star Destroyer equivalent remaining in active service -- and not just for a practical reason like 'minimizing maintenance costs in time of peace', but because the NR's political leadership outright declared that it was somehow *innately unethical* to have more powerful warships. And even ISD-equivalents were relatively rare, with the entire NRDF fleet being on the scale of mid-hundreds of ships on that level for the entire galaxy, whereas the Empire had *tens of thousands*.
In other words, the Vong were only a threat because the New Republic demilitarized to a delusional extreme. That joint task force you're talking about was the heaviest military force that the NR ever fielded (with the help of a peer ally) and it was barely on par with what would have once been considered a sector's assigned defense garrison.
Aldarion
Neoreactionary Monarchist
Yeah, I remember how in Thrawn Trilogy, titular character brought the New Republic nearly to its knees with... what, half a dozen Star Destroyers?
Yes, and in that era the New Republic had the semi-plausible excuse of still being in the process of establishing itself and building up. Even then, the Thrawn Trilogy -- as good as it is -- had to tacitly hand wave just how the self-declared New Republic jumped from "grassroots Rebellion mostly in the Outer Rim" to "the New Republic is a functional and relatively widely recognized government over a plurality portion of the former Empire". I can buy the Empire breaking up into warlord fractions after Palpatine's death, but this blatantly ignores the fact that post-Endor, *every single major Imperial warlord would massively outgun the Rebels*.
In the Vong era, the New Republic clearly *chose* this as a matter of idiotic policy, as the first of a long list of disastrously stupid decisions. Indeed, you could argue that for the most part, the New Republic government exists for the sole purpose of making disastrously stupid decisions so that the Designated Heroes can save the day.
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Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
I believe that was his main battlegroup, but Thrawn did have access to further resources. As a Grand Admiral, he was the effective leader of the Imperial Remnant for some time.
As for the New Republic Navy, I could understand less of an emphasis on capital ships but the writers jumped the shark.
The decay of the New Republic military is certainly a factor in the Vong's favor. But the issue I was bringing up was more directly tactical in regards to the Battle of Ithor is that the combined Imperial-Republic Task Force was bringing a large number of turbolasers using low power shots to overwhelm the Vong starships dovin basals and while it was effective, it wasn't as overwhelming as one would expect if a few fighters could neutralize a Vong Capships defenses. And since I don't recall the latter NJO stuff much, I was curious if that's just hero boosting or villain decay.
As for the larger strategic implications, I don't want to wank Star Was Hyperspace stuff, but independent of that, if the Vong can overwhelm a systems defense fleets, oftentimes it takes time for a significant force of the Imperial Military to respond if the incursion is truly serious. There's the chance that the response could be expedited like if this or that Inquisitor or Space Marine Captain is directly involved, but there typically tends to be a significant period of time for the Imperium of Man to respond decisively and it can often be weeks, months or even years.
As for the larger strategic implications, I don't want to wank Star Was Hyperspace stuff, but independent of that, if the Vong can overwhelm a systems defense fleets, oftentimes it takes time for a significant force of the Imperial Military to respond if the incursion is truly serious. There's the chance that the response could be expedited like if this or that Inquisitor or Space Marine Captain is directly involved, but there typically tends to be a significant period of time for the Imperium of Man to respond decisively and it can often be weeks, months or even years.
The NR decay was motivated by the stupid factions which had repeatedly assumed that the Imperials weren't an existential threat anymore, and that no one would be a peer adversary again.
The Black Fleet and Corellian Crisis's, the New Rebellion Droid revolt by that rejected apprentice of Luke's, and most importantly the fucking Hutts Darksaber attempt should have clue'd the NR into the fact demilitarizations was not workable.
I think that some of it may be Nom Anor's working in the background since at least the Dark Empire/Imperial Ruling Council times to undermine the galaxies ruling governments. It's not clear when Anor arrived in the galaxy proper, and how many identities he ran under during that time.
The peacenik/anti-human factions had problems holding up the NR response to things, while Borsk Feylya was a disaster for the galaxy at large in many regards and in multiple events.
The Black Fleet and Corellian Crisis's, the New Rebellion Droid revolt by that rejected apprentice of Luke's, and most importantly the fucking Hutts Darksaber attempt should have clue'd the NR into the fact demilitarizations was not workable.
I think that some of it may be Nom Anor's working in the background since at least the Dark Empire/Imperial Ruling Council times to undermine the galaxies ruling governments. It's not clear when Anor arrived in the galaxy proper, and how many identities he ran under during that time.
The peacenik/anti-human factions had problems holding up the NR response to things, while Borsk Feylya was a disaster for the galaxy at large in many regards and in multiple events.
As I've argued in other threads here, Black Fleet Crisis is interesting because it's the *one* significant piece of the EU that tried to feature actual fleet scale operations as opposed to "band of Rebel heroes". Unfortunately, it ends up being a lone outlier and later EU material explicitly places the "nothing stronger than an ISD" rule (specifically as a reason the NRDF scrapped all of the Executor-class ships they had captured in previous EU content and no longer had any "Super Star Destroyers" or equivalent).
Unfortunately, even Black Fleet Crisis sets NRDF fleet numbers very, very low.
Unfortunately, even Black Fleet Crisis sets NRDF fleet numbers very, very low.
Lusankya at Borealis and the Guardian existing into Fate of the Jedi would like a word about "All NR Executors were scrapped."
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
They also infiltrated the new republic and used existing internal divisions to fuck those buffoons over.
I kinda doubt they will have anywhere near the success with the Imperium, given it's policy of better a world get glasses than a single beretic feel even moderately happy with his achievements.
Also, who exactly said anything about them being like blanks??!!
Did not see any of that shit in the OP.
And even if they were, that would make them immensely interesting to Chaos and the Necrons.
Chaos would surmise that they were a problem for not providing noms and interfering with noms.
The Necrons would be happy to get a huge source of Pariahs.
The Nids would be like, "biotech you say, must acquire and nom, now!"
Also I am pretty sure that the Vong were not truly lacking in force presence, it was very weak and somehow corrupted IIRC.
Do, perhaps they would be similar to the Tau, with a warp presence that is too weak to be of interest to Chaos and that also makes it harder for them to become corrupted.
Harder, yes, but not impossible, since we have at least one example of a Tau getting possessed by a demon, and we have Fsrsight and the god of the Greater Good.
Imperium worlds are compromised to varying degrees by infiltration all the damn time in the novels. Chaos Corruption Genestealer Cults. Tau Propaganda. Rival Hive Gangs.
I've read only four novels in 40k and four out of the five worlds featured were being compromised by Outsiders!
Remember, they made a big plot point about Lusankya being pulled out of demilitarization scrap so she *wasn't* a fully functional SSD, hence the entire bizarre ramming spike plotline.
She wasn't set to be scrapped, but in mothballs in reserve, and acted as a medical research lab for a while due to the specialized compartments Isard had installed while it was a prison.