Trump's Attempt at Middle East Peace Plan for Palestine and Israel

Marduk said:

And that doctrine about land claims is no joke, read it up:

Islam and the West: Al Andalus in the context of and as exemplifying the Islamic Nation as Established by the Constitution of Medina.

Islam and the West: Al Andalus in the context of and as exemplifying the Islamic Nation as Established by the Constitution of Medina. This a...

wheatfromthechaff.blogspot.com

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Also, just gonna say this, Muhammud unlike Buddha and Jesus actually lived a really rich and powerful life

CarlManvers2019 said:

Video is unavailable

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Works for me...
What country are you in? Try this one:

Marduk said:

Works for me...
What country are you in? Try this one:

This Land Is Mine - Nina Paley

I envisioned This Land Is Mine as the last scene of my potential-possible-maybe- feature film, Seder-Masochism, but it’s the first (and so far only) scene I’ve animated. As the Bible says, “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.” This Land Is Mine from Nina Paley on Vimeo. Who’s...

blog.ninapaley.com

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You know, there's another meaning behind this vid

What is or who is right and wrong, by the end of the day can only truly be proven by the one still standing, a person's ownership of something won't matter to a thief unless he knows that that person is willing and able to kill for it or others are willing to fight and kill for that person keeping it.

Robert A. Heinlein is right about violence, though a CONTROLLED AND MEASURED violence is better

CarlManvers2019 said:

Favor, any chance you can send me links to these?

My lefty CNN loving Trump hating sister(yes we got those even here in the Philippines TBF we watch a LOT of CNN it seems)really keeps going on about how bad Israel is or how Israel took over Palestine unfairly and how essentially they’re at fault

Admittedly I am partially at fault for not being extremely well versed in history but she’s got that particular way of pissing you off that feels really fucking gaslight-y, mocking and familiar with my encounters with similar lefties on other sites

Just so you know, she kept saying that Germany should have just given the Jews their own nation instead kf what lead to Israel being founded

Also, not just wikipedia, for "legitimacy"'s sake

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Not sure what parts specifically you want links to, but I am willing to try and find some articles if you can be more specific. As for your sister's beliefs? They are sadly quite common among people who know absolutely nothing about the region or the history of the Jewish people other than what little propaganda they picked up from places like the Boycott Divest Sanctions movement or something similar. The argument basically goes 'Jews are bad because they are European white people who took over indigenous Palestinian lands' and therefore 'all Israelis are baby eating monsters who drink blood for dinner etc, etc'. This ignores that A. Jews are the only remaining indigenous population of Israel. B. Jews are not European, White (to the degree that such a thing even exists outside the US, but that's another story), or colonists. C. Israel has offered peace dozens of times, and each time they have tried it has been refused and led to more violence.

If she is actually interested in learning (or if you are) a good place to get started is actually the historical fiction book Exodus by Leon Uris. It is fiction, but pretty damn accurate in terms of history. From there, well, it really depends how interested and how open to learning you are. There are resources out there.

As for Germany? After the Holocaust many of the surviving Jews tried to go home in Poland and Germany. Many of them were murdered by their former neighbors when they did so. At least in what was then British Palestine the Jews had the Yeshuv and the Haganah to protect them from Arab pogroms. In Europe they had nothing, and very few wanted to stay in the European graveyards after all that had happened. Of course when they tried to go, the British locked most of them up in 'internment camps' on Cyprus. There were people born in German camps in the late 30's who grew up behind German and British barbed wire, and didn't live free until they made it to Israel during the independence war in 1948. Many of the Israeli soldiers who died in that war had gone from German camp to British camp, to fighting for their lives in the IDF.

A lot of anti-Israel propaganda is so over the top wrong you need to practically teach the believer a college level course just so they understand how wrong they are. It really sucks. Worse, trying to break through their belief system is hard, because like most echo chambers, the believer will assume anything contrary to their viewpoint is a lie, and will find any excuse to maintain that. By the way, this is neither a Left or Right issue, Antisemitic conspiracies and echo chambers are damn near everywhere.

Marduk said:

That sounds like a feasible solution on the face of it...
But if you factor in the modern international cultural-political-media environment, it falls on that face.
So the theory is, let Palestinians have a 100% sovereign and independent state, and if they use this as an opportunity to arm up and start yet another total war against Israel, then Israel gets the right to turn that state into a re-entactment of Stalingrad if they are feeling merciful, or Hiroshima if they get seriously pissed off. In either case, many Palestinians might at least think again about the future of their people, those still alive that is.

But we all know this wouldn't be an option politically as things are now. What would happen is that at a great cost in money, lives and political capital, Israel would have to occupy the place exactly like in the past, effectively returning to pre-2005 status quo. An absolute exercise in futility.

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The short term suffering of hardening your society against rocket attacks and having to make colonial wrecking forays (there would be no need for another occupation, remove the Palestinian source of wealth and they just can't buy enough guns and arms to be a real threat), is less than the long term threat of infiltration and demographic overthrow. That's my rationale.

LifeisTiresome said:

And this moralizing has created utter self-hatred

Why liberal white women pay a lot of money to learn over dinner how they're racist

A growing number of women are paying to confront their privilege – and racism – at dinners that cost $2,500

www.theguardian.com

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Wow just....wow that is the most pathetic thing I have ever heard. It's so pathetic that I can't even get angry about it. I've seen some weak kneed crap in my day but this....wow! I mean hats off to the two women that came up with another (scam) way to separate stupid people from their money. I ( as a black woman ) want to find these women that go to these parties and give them a hug and forgive them for their racist ways. I would of course charge them for the hug.

Tyanna of Pentos said:

The short term suffering of hardening your society against rocket attacks

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Possible, but costs a lot of money in the grand scheme of things. Not annoying kind of lot, but meaningful in the scale of national military budget, even budget in general. And even that is only tested at relatively low scale rocket bombardment seen in current status quo. At larger scale attacks, we can say that rocket interception would get less effective, and material damages would be proportionally higher.

Tyanna of Pentos said:

and having to make colonial wrecking forays (there would be no need for another occupation, remove the Palestinian source of wealth and they just can't buy enough guns and arms to be a real threat),

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Israel is neither willing nor able to do them over most of the islamic world - which is the preferred source of "militant purposes friendly" cash Palestine's resident terrorists get, as they have to put meaningful effort into appropriating "official" tax revenue for those purposes to not piss off all the aid agencies, and there isn't that much to appropriate anyway.
As for the local sources, the current system of strict import controls achieves a pretty similar effect at minimum possible international outrage fallout - even Russia, Turkey or Syria wouldn't admit to outright punitive expeditions.

Tyanna of Pentos said:

is less than the long term threat of infiltration and demographic overthrow. That's my rationale.

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The current status quo addresses this at least as well, and probably better, giving Israel more options of measures to counter infiltration, while demographically, that's a mostly a matter of Israel's internal politics in either case.

Tyanna of Pentos said:

The short term suffering of hardening your society against rocket attacks and having to make colonial wrecking forays (there would be no need for another occupation, remove the Palestinian source of wealth and they just can't buy enough guns and arms to be a real threat), is less than the long term threat of infiltration and demographic overthrow. That's my rationale.

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Marduk said:

Possible, but costs a lot of money in the grand scheme of things. Not annoying kind of lot, but meaningful in the scale of national military budget, even budget in general. And even that is only tested at relatively low scale rocket bombardment seen in current status quo. At larger scale attacks, we can say that rocket interception would get less effective, and material damages would be proportionally higher.

Israel is neither willing nor able to do them over most of the Islamic world - which is the preferred source of "militant purposes friendly" cash Palestine's resident terrorists get, as they have to put meaningful effort into appropriating "official" tax revenue for those purposes to not piss off all the aid agencies, and there isn't that much to appropriate anyway.
As for the local sources, the current system of strict import controls achieves a pretty similar effect at minimum possible international outrage fallout - even Russia, Turkey or Syria wouldn't admit to outright punitive expeditions.

The current status quo addresses this at least as well, and probably better, giving Israel more options of measures to counter infiltration, while demographically, that's a mostly a matter of Israel's internal politics in either case.

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I agree with the above. Even if Israel were willing to commit the sort of campaign you are talking about, effectively flattening every structure and leaving millions of Palestinians homeless and dying of exposure and starvation, which they most emphatically are unwilling to do, it wouldn't work. The Palestinians are being supported with money and material support from dozens of countries both in the Middle East, and Europe. So no matter how much damage Israel does to the Palestinian economies, the Palestinians will always have more money to buy more guns and smuggle in new equipment to build more.

Unless Israel abandoned every shred of ethics they have and went on a Vietnam style rolling thunder bombing campaign, all that would happen is that Israel would get slapped with yet more international sanctions, condemnations, etc, and the Palestinians would rebuild their arsenals in another decade or so. Unless the Palestinians fled en-mass to Jordan (and the Jordanians didn't seal their borders given their fears of another Black September style Palestinian war) we would be right back to the status quo in a decade, just with a lot of dead innocents and more anti-Israel propaganda in the mean time. Fact is, the Israelis do not have the stomach to commit the sort of ethnic cleansing/genocide/crimes against humanity type stuff you are suggesting, and which they are constantly accused of. The European Holocaust and Middle Eastern expulsions are still within living memory there.

The current status quo is about as good as its been for Israel in a long time. Yes, Gaza is a large problem, and Hezbollah is a looming threat in the North, but with the borders secured, another Intifada style terror wave is all but impossible. Conventional armies in the region are no longer in a position to launch invasion attempts, and the Arab countries are warming to Israel because they have a common enemy in Iran. While the Palestinians are increasing the amount of support they are getting from Europe and the US, they are loosing support among the Arab nations which have been funding and supporting them since 1949 when the Arab League created the 'Palestinian refugee problem' as a political weapon. Bluntly, the status quo may not be peace, but its about as close as the Israelis have gotten in four generations. The issue right now is that the Israeli electorate is disinclined to take risks for any sort of final peace, because every time its been tried in the last 30 years the attempts to broker peace have led to more violence and wars. That's why Netanyahu keeps getting reelected, even though most Israelis hate him. They know what he will do, and they fear that anyone else will do something different, causing another war.

There is a simple solution to the problem of the Gaza strip. Just park a automated 16in gun with explosive shells, and hook it into the Iron dome so that it will fire counter artillery shells on every rocket launch.

From there, it is a race between classical conditioning and attrition.

Doomsought said:

There is a simple solution to the problem of the Gaza strip. Just park a automated 16in gun with explosive shells, and hook it into the Iron dome so that it will fire counter artillery shells on every rocket launch.

From there, it is a race between classical conditioning and attrition.

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Since Hamas fires from UN schools and mosques, that's a great way to actually commit the war crimes that they are accused of.

I feel the need to reiterate, the Israelis don't want to exterminate the Palestinians. They don't want to slaughter thousands of civilians whose only crime is being born in a camp that only exists because the Arab League are a bunch of assholes. Israel has inherited thousands of years of Jewish religious philosophy about what is moral and what is not, and they apply it to their military, even in cases of existential threat.

During the the Gaza border riots called "the great march of return" every sniper shot was personally approved by a senior officer to avoid accusations of war crimes against the common soldiers. Every airstrike planed against Gaza has a lawyer in the room with the ability to veto the strike if it violates Israeli or international law. The Israelis go to extraordinary lengths to protect enemy civilians, while Hamas does their best to get Palestinian civilians killed for propaganda.

All the solutions that involve indiscriminate killing, or killing without care for collateral damage, have already been thought of and rejected as un-ethical by the IDF. If the Israelis were unethical enough to actually slaughter the Palestinians, commit ethnic cleansing, etc, this would have all been over in 1967. Its not, because the Israelis do not wish to become the monsters the world continuously accuses them of being.

Doomsought said:

There is a simple solution to the problem of the Gaza strip. Just park a automated 16in gun with explosive shells, and hook it into the Iron dome so that it will fire counter artillery shells on every rocket launch.

From there, it is a race between classical conditioning and attrition.

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Hmm, wonder if the Israeli's would like pay for a reactivated Iowa or SoDak or two to station off Gaza.

According to the poster above you, not at all and it's not due to budgetary reasons.

Midnighter13 said:

Since Hamas fires from UN schools and mosques, that's a great way to actually commit the war crimes that they are accused of.

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Actually not technically. Schools, mosques, hospitals, and other normally protected buildings becomes valid targets of war when they are used for military purposes; such as firing rockets at things.

Under the letter of international "law", Israel would be within its rights to blow up every location used to launch rockets on them regardless of what the buildings nominal purpose is (so long as the retaliatory strike is launched quickly enough to have a reasonable likelihood of actually hitting the attackers).

Emperor Tippy said:

Actually not technically. Schools, mosques, hospitals, and other normally protected buildings becomes valid targets of war when they are used for military purposes; such as firing rockets at things.

Under the letter of international "law", Israel would be within its rights to blow up every location used to launch rockets on them regardless of what the buildings nominal purpose is (so long as the retaliatory strike is launched quickly enough to have a reasonable likelihood of actually hitting the attackers).

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You think the anti-semitic MSM and the UN are going to care? Any chance they can accuse jews of being baby-killing murderers, they will take. Hypocrisy is their most defining trait.

Urabrask Revealed said:

You think the anti-semitic MSM and the UN are going to care? Any chance they can accuse jews of being baby-killing murderers, they will take. Hypocrisy is their most defining trait.

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Well, that and the fact that most of them are probably sociopaths.

Emperor Tippy said:

Actually not technically. Schools, mosques, hospitals, and other normally protected buildings becomes valid targets of war when they are used for military purposes; such as firing rockets at things.

Under the letter of international "law", Israel would be within its rights to blow up every location used to launch rockets on them regardless of what the buildings nominal purpose is (so long as the retaliatory strike is launched quickly enough to have a reasonable likelihood of actually hitting the attackers).

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That may be the case legally, but optics and ethics say different. Hamas has their main military command center in the basement of Gaza's biggest hospital. Its been there through three wars. The Israelis certainly could have bombed the place and destroyed many of Hamas's senior officers and command and control. They have not. Why? Because even if it were legal, bombing a hospital is highly unethical, and a massive propaganda coup for Hamas. Hamas wants Israel to bomb the hospital, they've practically announced where their command center is, because they know that if Israel does so, they will have a piece of propaganda they can use to attack Israel for another century. Hell, they still use Deir Yassin, even though its commonly accepted that most of the accounts of the 'massacre' were made up either by Arab propagandists or members of the Irgun trying to look 'hard' in the face of the new IDF trying to absorb them. Its still a major propaganda asset to the Palestinians more than 70 years later.

Midnighter13 said:

That may be the case legally, but optics and ethics say different. Hamas has their main military command center in the basement of Gaza's biggest hospital. Its been there through three wars. The Israelis certainly could have bombed the place and destroyed many of Hamas's senior officers and command and control. They have not. Why? Because even if it were legal, bombing a hospital is highly unethical, and a massive propaganda coup for Hamas. Hamas wants Israel to bomb the hospital, they've practically announced where their command center is, because they know that if Israel does so, they will have a piece of propaganda they can use to attack Israel for another century. Hell, they still use Deir Yassin, even though its commonly accepted that most of the accounts of the 'massacre' were made up either by Arab propagandists or members of the Irgun trying to look 'hard' in the face of the new IDF trying to absorb them. Its still a major propaganda asset to the Palestinians more than 70 years later.

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Well, if the Palestinians don't accept the current deal Trump is proposing, or at least start negotiating in good faith in regards to it, maybe it's time for Israel to simply stop giving a fuck and level any building used by Hamas in Gaza.

Harsh, unethical, and brutal, I know.

But at this point the amount of fucks I have to give about how the Palestinians feel, or what lies they tell themselves/the world, is in the negatives.

I and others have never forgotten that on 9/11 the Israeli's cried with the US, while the Palestinians cheered.

Edit: Frankly Hamas and Hezbollah are enemies of the US and western world as much as they are enemies of Israel. That we haven't lowered the boom on them ourselves is something they should thank Allah for everyday.

Abhorsen said:

Because not killing people is a good thing, and America tries to do a good thing.

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Not killing people can he good or bad depending on context. Some folks frankly need killing they just do.

CarlManvers2019 said:

Less of a practical standpoint and more of a "moral one" and the Germans "have it coming"

I may dislike my sister's Lefty beliefs but even I would get how people feel that Nazi Germany was to be "punished" further

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I mean being utterly broken and occupied by two superpowers. Badly enough that you literally celebrate being conquered. While simultaneously importing foreigners that hate you and systemically abuse your women. Seems like enough punishment no?

Lanmandragon said:

I mean being utterly broken and occupied by two superpowers. Badly enough that you literally celebrate being conquered. While simultaneously importing foreigners that hate you and systemically abuse your women. Seems like enough punishment no?

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A “punishment” to be passed down to your descendents

The sins of the father/mother/progenitor/futanari-dad/mom/nonbinary

If there is one thing to actually be punished for

It’s their sheer weakness, stupidity and naivety and last of all this “nihlism” that pervades their everything that even justifies replacing sexy 2D women with some androgynous-boy-look

When you won’t even fight for your decadence, you show how much you can’t keep it

Even criminals have more love for their joys than them

CarlManvers2019 said:

A “punishment” to be passed down to your descendents

The sins of the father/mother/progenitor/futanari-dad/mom/nonbinary

If there is one thing to actually be punished for

It’s their sheer weakness, stupidity and naivety and last of all this “nihlism” that pervades their everything that even justifies replacing sexy 2D women with some androgynous-boy-look

When you won’t even fight for your decadence, you show how much you can’t keep it

Even criminals have more love for their joys than them

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Dude, why bring the bold in this thread?? Like I'm no prude but this thread is a serious discussion thread not a fetish thread. lmao

CarlManvers2019 said:

Less of a practical standpoint and more of a "moral one" and the Germans "have it coming"

I may dislike my sister's Lefty beliefs but even I would get how people feel that Nazi Germany was to be "punished" further

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This is the hypocrisy of the leftists. They claim to be forgiving and compassionate and not be religious but they care about sins of the father being on descendants and punishing people. Infact they want to punish people just as much the right wing caricatures they claim want to punish people. They just want it done to the "correct" people.