Trump's Attempt at Middle East Peace Plan for Palestine and Israel

In theory you can just ignore the international political-media-cultural complex and take drastic action.

You’ll be called Nazis, colonialists, Genocidaíres, and everything else in the book.

Is Israel willing to do that? To be condemned en masse?
 
Marduk said:
That sounds like a feasible solution on the face of it...
But if you factor in the modern international cultural-political-media environment, it falls on that face.
So the theory is, let Palestinians have a 100% sovereign and independent state, and if they use this as an opportunity to arm up and start yet another total war against Israel, then Israel gets the right to turn that state into a re-entactment of Stalingrad if they are feeling merciful, or Hiroshima if they get seriously pissed off. In either case, many Palestinians might at least think again about the future of their people, those still alive that is.

But we all know this wouldn't be an option politically as things are now. What would happen is that at a great cost in money, lives and political capital, Israel would have to occupy the place exactly like in the past, effectively returning to pre-2005 status quo. An absolute exercise in futility.
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I don't necessarily agree that an occupation would be needed this scenario. Why couldn't Israeli just crush the Palestinian military and let them sort out how to rebuild? We didn't have to occupy Iraq after we smashed it in the gulf war.

Lord Invictus said:
Is Israel willing to do that? To be condemned en masse?
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You say that like there'd be any difference compared to how they get treated now.
 
Battlegrinder said:
I don't necessarily agree that an occupation would be needed this scenario. Why couldn't Israeli just crush the Palestinian military and let them sort out how to rebuild? We didn't have to occupy Iraq after we smashed it in the gulf war.
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Fundamentally different situations. US military could just go to Iraq, smash things, and leave.
Any angry state or non state actors left there would be left oceans away from US territory.
What are they gonna do? Make mean prank calls?

Meanwhile, Israel can go and smash things in Palestine as many times as it wants, but its cities will continue to be within range of homemade Grad knockoff launched from Palestine, and murder minded fanatics will still be one hard to secure long border and more or less few to few dozens of kilometers away from its schools and malls.
 
Marduk said:
Fundamentally different situations. US military could just go to Iraq, smash things, and leave.
Any angry state or non state actors left there would be left oceans away from US territory.
What are they gonna do? Make mean prank calls?

Meanwhile, Israel can go and smash things in Palestine as many times as it wants, but its cities will continue to be within range of homemade Grad knockoff launched from Palestine, and murder minded fanatics will still be one hard to secure long border and more or less few to few dozens of kilometers away from its schools and malls.
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Israeli's current border wall seems to be working at addressing the latter issue, and thier anti missile/mortar systems are nearly as good and rapidly improving. Given that, I don't see the need for any serious cross border offensives or operations, aside from.the occasional air strike or the like.
 
Battlegrinder said:
Israeli's current border wall seems to be working at addressing the latter issue, and thier anti missile/mortar systems are nearly as good and rapidly improving. Given that, I don't see the need for any serious cross border offensives or operations, aside from.the occasional air strike or the like.
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That works so well only due to the current strict limits on dual use material imports. Without that factor, using a new decent car's worth in interceptor missile for every few hundred $ worth of bulk crappy rocket making materials would not be feasible for long.
 
Lord Invictus said:
You’ll be called Nazis

Israel
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You know, what past WWII, I don't think the Left really ever cared about the Jewish people

All they wanted was some underdog victim to bash people's heads over and the moment the Jews gained a prospering country, they branded them all white and oppressors to the nearby culturally regressive dudes with actual men kampf books
 
CarlManvers2019 said:
You know, what past WWII, I don't think the Left really ever cared about the Jewish people

All they wanted was some underdog victim to bash people's heads over and the moment the Jews gained a prospering country, they branded them all white and oppressors to the nearby culturally regressive dudes with actual men kampf books
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That's not true.

They didn't care about us before WW2 or during it either.
 
Cherico said:
That's not true.

They didn't care about us before WW2 or during it either.
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So why bother calling the Right and so many others who disagree with diversity "NAZI's"?

I doubt there were actually enough non-white skinned people in Europe to send to the camps for them to be in sheer horror over
 
CarlManvers2019 said:
So why bother calling the Right and so many others who disagree with diversity "NAZI's"?
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Because Nazis are still considered the standard for unreedemable evil, so calling your political oponents nazis dehumanizes them and justifies all of you actions, no matter how despicable. It has nothing to do with Jews, infact the leftards are more than happy to call them nazis for the sin of existing, while crying about antisemitism when jews on their side are criticized about anything.
 
Abhorsen said:
Compared to what the US would have been doing if it was similarly powerful any other time in history? Yeah, we are shockingly peaceful. I mean, the obvious thing to do would be invade mexico to secure the border, then eliminate Cuba/venezuela/all the commies in the America. That's what would happen in any other time period. America basically established it as a rough international norm that invading places to take their land is a bad thing, and we will try to stop it.
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Which is why people are now changing tactics and doing the we will outbreed you.



And this moralizing has created utter self-hatred

www.theguardian.com

Why liberal white women pay a lot of money to learn over dinner how they're racist

A growing number of women are paying to confront their privilege – and racism – at dinners that cost $2,500
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Battlegrinder said:
I don't necessarily agree that an occupation would be needed this scenario. Why couldn't Israeli just crush the Palestinian military and let them sort out how to rebuild? We didn't have to occupy Iraq after we smashed it in the gulf war.
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That would be an incredibly bad idea, even if were feasible. The reason that Israel is currently so against an independent Palestinian state in area A is because of the lessons of the Gaza withdrawal. in 2005 Israel uprooted 8k+ Israelis who were living in Israeli towns in Gaza. They left behind all their infrastructure, including millions of dollars worth of greenhouses and agricultural equipment. The whole idea was that if the Israelis left Gaza, there would be less violence in Gaza, and the Gazans would stop shooting rockets from Gaza into southern Israel. That plan failed miserably. All of the infrastructure the Israelis left behind was burned or otherwise destroyed in massive riots celebrating Israel's withdrawal (pretending it was a great Palestinian victory). Then, Hamas won the first and only election in Gaza, and used that as the excuse they needed to take over the entire strip in a coup. After that, the number of rocket attacks against Israel increased dramatically. As a result of the massive increase in rocket attacks, Israel has been forced to fight three full scale wars against the Gaza strip. They have refused to invade and occupy it again, because it would cost far to many lives to be worth it to the Israelis, and would probably only slow down the rate of rockets rather than stop them (since when Israel did occupy Gaza, there were still lots of rockets being fired at Israeli towns).

In other words, The Israelis gave the Palestinians a proto-state in 2005, and in return they received thousands of rockets a year which cost them three wars in a decade, and now Gaza is too expensive to retake in terms of lives, money, and political capital (both domestic and international). If Area A became another proto-state, it is highly likely a similar situation would develop. Only instead of raining rockets on the relatively sparsely populated Negev (where Iron Dome is highly effective and efficient), an Area A state would be able to bombard the entire Israeli heartland from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv on a daily basis. And again, in such a circumstance it would be too expensive in terms of lives, money and political capital to reoccupy the area after the Israelis beat whatever conventional forces the Palestinian state was able to muster. Using Iron Dome and other active defenses are at best an extremely expensive stop-gap measure in such circumstances. The Palestinians can afford to build more Kassam rockets for $100 than the Israelis can afford to fire $70,000 interceptors to stop them. That is why the Israelis are leery at best about a Palestinian state. They don't want a second Gaza in a much more dangerous position on yet another of their borders.

The last thing the Israelis want is a completely lawless territory on their border, because such places tend to get taken over by groups like Hamas, ISIS or Al-Queda, and having Hamas to the South and Hezbollah to the North is bad enough. They can't afford to dismantle the PA in a war without reoccupying the whole region for fear of a new ISIS or Hamas controlled government taking power there.
 
Midnighter13 said:
That would be an incredibly bad idea, even if were feasible. The reason that Israel is currently so against an independent Palestinian state in area A is because of the lessons of the Gaza withdrawal. in 2005 Israel uprooted 8k+ Israelis who were living in Israeli towns in Gaza. They left behind all their infrastructure, including millions of dollars worth of greenhouses and agricultural equipment. The whole idea was that if the Israelis left Gaza, there would be less violence in Gaza, and the Gazans would stop shooting rockets from Gaza into southern Israel. That plan failed miserably. All of the infrastructure the Israelis left behind was burned or otherwise destroyed in massive riots celebrating Israel's withdrawal (pretending it was a great Palestinian victory). Then, Hamas won the first and only election in Gaza, and used that as the excuse they needed to take over the entire strip in a coup. After that, the number of rocket attacks against Israel increased dramatically. As a result of the massive increase in rocket attacks, Israel has been forced to fight three full scale wars against the Gaza strip. They have refused to invade and occupy it again, because it would cost far to many lives to be worth it to the Israelis, and would probably only slow down the rate of rockets rather than stop them (since when Israel did occupy Gaza, there were still lots of rockets being fired at Israeli towns).

In other words, The Israelis gave the Palestinians a proto-state in 2005, and in return they received thousands of rockets a year which cost them three wars in a decade, and now Gaza is too expensive to retake in terms of lives, money, and political capital (both domestic and international). If Area A became another proto-state, it is highly likely a similar situation would develop. Only instead of raining rockets on the relatively sparsely populated Negev (where Iron Dome is highly effective and efficient), an Area A state would be able to bombard the entire Israeli heartland from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv on a daily basis. And again, in such a circumstance it would be too expensive in terms of lives, money and political capital to reoccupy the area after the Israelis beat whatever conventional forces the Palestinian state was able to muster. Using Iron Dome and other active defenses are at best an extremely expensive stop-gap measure in such circumstances. The Palestinians can afford to build more Kassam rockets for $100 than the Israelis can afford to fire $70,000 interceptors to stop them. That is why the Israelis are leery at best about a Palestinian state. They don't want a second Gaza in a much more dangerous position on yet another of their borders.

The last thing the Israelis want is a completely lawless territory on their border, because such places tend to get taken over by groups like Hamas, ISIS or Al-Queda, and having Hamas to the South and Hezbollah to the North is bad enough. They can't afford to dismantle the PA in a war without reoccupying the whole region for fear of a new ISIS or Hamas controlled government taking power there.
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Favor, any chance you can send me links to these?

My lefty CNN loving Trump hating sister(yes we got those even here in the Philippines TBF we watch a LOT of CNN it seems)really keeps going on about how bad Israel is or how Israel took over Palestine unfairly and how essentially they’re at fault

Admittedly I am partially at fault for not being extremely well versed in history but she’s got that particular way of pissing you off that feels really fucking gaslight-y, mocking and familiar with my encounters with similar lefties on other sites

Just so you know, she kept saying that Germany should have just given the Jews their own nation instead kf what lead to Israel being founded

Also, not just wikipedia, for "legitimacy"'s sake
 
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CarlManvers2019 said:
Just so you know, she kept saying that Germany should have just given the Jews their own nation instead kf what lead to Israel being founded
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I think that would've led to resentments from Germans towards Germano-Israel, and more troubles down the line.
Not to mention, where is that supposed nation to exist? Placed between Germany and the UdSSR? Between France and Germany? It's a neat Alt-History scenario (and one I might make a thread about later on), but it's unlikely to go well, when any potential agigators can claim "They stole our land, let's reclaim german soil!"
 
Urabrask Revealed said:
I think that would've led to resentments from Germans towards Germano-Israel, and more troubles down the line.
Not to mention, where is that supposed nation to exist? Placed between Germany and the UdSSR? Between France and Germany? It's a neat Alt-History scenario (and one I might make a thread about later on), but it's unlikely to go well, when any potential agigators can claim "They stole our land, let's reclaim german soil!"
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Less of a practical standpoint and more of a "moral one" and the Germans "have it coming"

I may dislike my sister's Lefty beliefs but even I would get how people feel that Nazi Germany was to be "punished" further
 
CarlManvers2019 said:
Favor, any chance you can send me links to these?

My lefty CNN loving Trump hating sister(yes we got those even here in the Philippines TBF we watch a LOT of CNN it seems)really keeps going on about how bad Israel is or how Israel took over Palestine unfairly and how essentially they’re at fault

Admittedly I am partially at fault for not being extremely well versed in history but she’s got that particular way of pissing you off that feels really fucking gaslight-y, mocking and familiar with my encounters with similar lefties on other sites

Just so you know, she kept saying that Germany should have just given the Jews their own nation instead kf what lead to Israel being founded
Click to expand...
It's a common idea, was taken into consideration back then even, along with a more joke version of creating Israel on Madagascar...
The issue is, these places aren't the historical homeland of the Jews. All the Jewish cultural and religious sites (aka stuff people care about a lot) would still be elsewhere, which would be a continuing problem for them and whatever Arab country would be left in charge of them. As such it's perfectly logical that Jews, like any other people, would want their nation-state to be in their historical homeland, not some random strip of land somewhere on a different continent.
 
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Marduk said:
It's a common idea, was taken into consideration back then even, along with a more joke version of creating Israel on Madagascar...
The issue is, these places aren't the historical homeland of the Jews. All the Jewish cultural and religious sites (aka stuff people care about a lot) would still be elsewhere, which would be a continuing problem for them and whatever Arab country would be left in charge of them. As such it's perfectly logical that Jews, like any other people, would want their nation-state to be in their historical homeland, not some random strip of land somewhere on a different continent.
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Still, in hindsight my sister did have some of a point

Whatever currently is happening or whatever happened relatively recently

Decades ago, Israel was made by getting lands from the guys they're now in conflict with, who have sorta built up a very strong grudge combined with Anti-Semitism present and expounded
 
CarlManvers2019 said:
Still, in hindsight my sister did have some of a point

Whatever currently is happening or whatever happened relatively recently

Decades ago, Israel was made by getting lands from the guys they're now in conflict with, who have sorta built up a very strong grudge combined with Anti-Semitism present and expounded
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As certain well known video suggests, that particular strip of land was changing hands all the time over most of history. The only unusual factor here is that islamic butthurt about territories lost knows no limits or shame.
 
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