Trump's Attempt at Middle East Peace Plan for Palestine and Israel

[CarlManvers2019]

@Midnighter13
Speaking of annexation by Israel, somehow I think there will be a rise in Nationalism amongst those annexees

They are now back to being part of the land promised to them by God

By a country capable and willing to use military force on the people who’ve tormented and done all sorts of atrocities towards them for generations

 

[Isem]

However, that would make them desperate given how charged it is. We're talking trying to make their own chemical agents or worse, a biological one. The former will simply get the Palestinians screwed over internationally, the latter will likely mark them for a Carthage Episode at best because even Britain during the hight of the Blitz simply went 'no' on their plan to use anthrax on Germany.

Imma be honest, if the Palestinians actually tried to make a bio weapon with minimal resources I'd be more concerned about them hitting themselves with it by accident rather then Israel. Nevermind that bioweapons are hard to make on a budget as Aum Shinrikyo found out in their attempt to spread Anthrax throughout Tokyo (the only result was that people complained about bad smells). Chances are any such bio terror attack would fail at it's intended goal and simply result in severe consequences for them. Chemical weapons meanwhile require a way to both manufacture and disperse without being noticed at any stage in the process and are also prone to underperforming if done on a low budget as seen in the Sarin attacks on the Tokyo subway system by the same group. There's very little chance of such efforts having good results for them.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Imma be honest, if the Palestinians actually tried to make a bio weapon with minimal resources I'd be more concerned about them hitting themselves with it by accident rather then Israel. Nevermind that bioweapons are hard to make on a budget as Aum Shinrikyo found out in their attempt to spread Anthrax throughout Tokyo (the only result was that people complained about bad smells). Chances are any such bio terror attack would fail at it's intended goal and simply result in severe consequences for them. Chemical weapons meanwhile require a way to both manufacture and disperse without being noticed at any stage in the process and are also prone to underperforming if done on a low budget as seen in the Sarin attacks on the Tokyo subway system by the same group. There's very little chance of such efforts having good results for them.

Honestly, this all sounds pretty pathetic for the Palestinians to even try

It’s like a crazy kid trying to beat up a champion martial artist who has actual experience outside matches, by thinking that if he only were “fighting dirty” he would win

 

[Arch Dornan]

Honestly, this all sounds pretty pathetic for the Palestinians to even try

It’s like a crazy kid trying to beat up a champion martial artist who has actual experience outside matches, by thinking that if he only were “fighting dirty” he would win

The stubbornness is just repeating history.

At least it's not during the times of the Romans. I have seen what determination is really like with the siege of Masada.

 

[Midnighter13]

@Midnighter13
Speaking of annexation by Israel, somehow I think there will be a rise in Nationalism amongst those annexees

They are now back to being part of the land promised to them by God

By a country capable and willing to use military force on the people who’ve tormented and done all sorts of atrocities towards them for generations

There won't be a rise in nationalism among the people Israel annexes, because their nationality and religious fervor is already at a fever pitch. The Hilltop Youth are as radical as its possible for Jews to be right now, and even the Israeli government (a government dominated by right wingers who flirt with outright far right racists) thinks they are way too extreme. The government has deployed the IDF more than once to quell some of their more extreme actions (including them stealing and occupying public lands just like many of the illegal Bedouin villages). For the Hilltop Youth, being under direct Israeli rule won't be much different except that it will be local police rather than the IDF cracking their skulls when they go too far.

For the people living in the major cities that are technically not yet Israeli territory? Again, not much will change. They already live under effective Israeli law, and they are there for the same reasons either way, a mix of nationalism, religious belief, and the basic economics of cheaper housing. The facts on the ground have existed for years, if not decades at this point. Heck, the suburbs of Jerusalem have more than 50 years of growth. They are full scale independent cities at this point, with hundreds of thousands of residents. There was never any chance of Israel handing entire cities over to the PA. Formal annexation is just that, a formality.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

There won't be a rise in nationalism among the people Israel annexes, because their nationality and religious fervor is already at a fever pitch. The Hilltop Youth are as radical as its possible for Jews to be right now, and even the Israeli government (a government dominated by right wingers who flirt with outright far right racists) thinks they are way too extreme. The government has deployed the IDF more than once to quell some of their more extreme actions (including them stealing and occupying public lands just like many of the illegal Bedouin villages). For the Hilltop Youth, being under direct Israeli rule won't be much different except that it will be local police rather than the IDF cracking their skulls when they go too far.

For the people living in the major cities that are technically not yet Israeli territory? Again, not much will change. They already live under effective Israeli law, and they are there for the same reasons either way, a mix of nationalism, religious belief, and the basic economics of cheaper housing. The facts on the ground have existed for years, if not decades at this point. Heck, the suburbs of Jerusalem have more than 50 years of growth. They are full scale independent cities at this point, with hundreds of thousands of residents. There was never any chance of Israel handing entire cities over to the PA. Formal annexation is just that, a formality.

Say, how do those guys you mentioned feel about Palestine?

Do the people of those suburbs have a cultural disconnection with Palestinians?

 

[Midnighter13]

Say, how do those guys you mentioned feel about Palestine?

Do the people of those suburbs have a cultural disconnection with Palestinians?

The people in the major "settlements?" They are Israelis. They vote in Israeli elections, follow Israeli law (to the extent that any Israeli bothers to follow laws that they disagree with), and are Israeli citizens. The major cities around Jerusalem are Israeli in everything but name. Outside those major blocks, things get more complicated.

There are settler groups that are rabidly religious and loathe the secular Israeli government. There are hilltop youth who are religious radicals who have no loyalty to any government, and only loosely follow a handful of radical rabbis. There are Israelis in Hebron which are Israeli citizens and who are loyal to Israel, and are upset that Israel is not supporting them more while they try to live in the second holiest city in Judaism (whist both Jews and Arabs in the city constantly do their best to make the other's life miserable).

There are Arabs living in the major blocks who are loyal to the idea of Palestine, but have no desire to live under PA rule. There are other Arabs who live under Israeli law, but have PA citizenship and are loyal to the PA (at least depending on who is asking the questions). Go through the area and the political and cultural landscape can change dramatically from village to village, town to town.

As far as cultural integration goes, I've not spent a whole lot of time there, nor have I done much more than speak to a few of locals, so take the following with a grain of salt. My understanding is that while there are economic links between Jewish and Arab communities in Area C, and to a lesser degree area B, there is very little cultural cross pollination, at least in the smaller villages and towns. In the cities, Arabs and Jews work together, and in many cases live together (though there are many neighborhoods known for being 'Arab' or 'Orthodox' many more are mixed). In the smaller villages and towns in the West Bank though, you have Arabs who will travel to Jewish towns every day for work (or more rarely vice versa) but they will rarely live in the same towns or villages (though of course there are well known exceptions). Each population tends to speak different languages, get educated in different schools, and are generally separate socially and culturally.

In Israel proper there is more effort made towards integration. Within areas B&C Jews and Arabs may be dependent upon each other economically, but there is a clear divide based on nationalism and the laws each lives under. Most Arabs are citizens of the PA (and thus must follow PA laws) while all Jews are Israeli citizens and thus are usually (though not always) subject to Israeli civil law (on occasion they are subject to Israeli military law instead, as are Arabs living in Area B). Where things get really annoyingly complicated is when you have issues where Israeli and PA citizens are working together in places where its not clear if PA or Israeli law should apply, and so you have Israelis being punished for breaking Israeli law while following PA law, and Arabs being punished for breaking PA laws while following Israeli laws. It gets really messy. It gets even messier when you take into account that there are businesses (both Israeli and Palestinian) which set up in these areas specifically to take advantage of the legal grey zones which exist especially in Area B.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

@Midnighter13
Thanks for the info, man it sounds to me like they're almost one country that's divided within itself but NOT in neat lines as it's more like who's your ally may not be so close geographically speaking or something similar

 

[Arch Dornan]

The people in the major "settlements?" They are Israelis. They vote in Israeli elections, follow Israeli law (to the extent that any Israeli bothers to follow laws that they disagree with), and are Israeli citizens. The major cities around Jerusalem are Israeli in everything but name. Outside those major blocks, things get more complicated.

There are settler groups that are rabidly religious and loathe the secular Israeli government. There are hilltop youth who are religious radicals who have no loyalty to any government, and only loosely follow a handful of radical rabbis. There are Israelis in Hebron which are Israeli citizens and who are loyal to Israel, and are upset that Israel is not supporting them more while they try to live in the second holiest city in Judaism (whist both Jews and Arabs in the city constantly do their best to make the other's life miserable).

There are Arabs living in the major blocks who are loyal to the idea of Palestine, but have no desire to live under PA rule. There are other Arabs who live under Israeli law, but have PA citizenship and are loyal to the PA (at least depending on who is asking the questions). Go through the area and the political and cultural landscape can change dramatically from village to village, town to town.

As far as cultural integration goes, I've not spent a whole lot of time there, nor have I done much more than speak to a few of locals, so take the following with a grain of salt. My understanding is that while there are economic links between Jewish and Arab communities in Area C, and to a lesser degree area B, there is very little cultural cross pollination, at least in the smaller villages and towns. In the cities, Arabs and Jews work together, and in many cases live together (though there are many neighborhoods known for being 'Arab' or 'Orthodox' many more are mixed). In the smaller villages and towns in the West Bank though, you have Arabs who will travel to Jewish towns every day for work (or more rarely vice versa) but they will rarely live in the same towns or villages (though of course there are well known exceptions). Each population tends to speak different languages, get educated in different schools, and are generally separate socially and culturally.

In Israel proper there is more effort made towards integration. Within areas B&C Jews and Arabs may be dependent upon each other economically, but there is a clear divide based on nationalism and the laws each lives under. Most Arabs are citizens of the PA (and thus must follow PA laws) while all Jews are Israeli citizens and thus are usually (though not always) subject to Israeli civil law (on occasion they are subject to Israeli military law instead, as are Arabs living in Area B). Where things get really annoyingly complicated is when you have issues where Israeli and PA citizens are working together in places where its not clear if PA or Israeli law should apply, and so you have Israelis being punished for breaking Israeli law while following PA law, and Arabs being punished for breaking PA laws while following Israeli laws. It gets really messy. It gets even messier when you take into account that there are businesses (both Israeli and Palestinian) which set up in these areas specifically to take advantage of the legal grey zones which exist especially in Area B.

That looks complicated.

Can't say what the future holds with that complication.

 

[PsihoKekec]

I reckon the future will be like the past was - interesting (in Chinese proverb way)

 

[Arch Dornan]

Any possible civil war which will happen one day because it's the middle east I see the orthodox Jews I keep hearing of that take their faith seriously they don't have jobs or don't join the army will be heavily affected.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Any possible civil war which will happen one day because it's the middle east I see the orthodox Jews I keep hearing of that take their faith seriously they don't have jobs or don't join the army will be heavily affected.

Don’t have jobs and don’t join the army

I’m guessing they’re barely educated or have much wealth or even use of it as well

Isn’t it the intelligence, work ethic and thriftiness that really made their lives rich even outside Israel?

To me it’s less or a Civil War and more a situation in which people have to deal with a bunch of socially regressive douchebags who don’t even have much money or value to begin with, let alone contribute much to the nations’ prosperity or wish to

Then again, if they’re in large enough numbers, they can start another situation in which the rest of Israel is constantly holding back its ability to destroy

 

[Arch Dornan]

Don’t have jobs and don’t join the army

I’m guessing they’re barely educated or have much wealth or even use of it as well

Isn’t it the intelligence, work ethic and thriftiness that really made their lives rich even outside Israel?

To me it’s less or a Civil War and more a situation in which people have to deal with a bunch of socially regressive douchebags who don’t even have much money or value to begin with, let alone contribute much to the nations’ prosperity or wish to

Then again, if they’re in large enough numbers, they can start another situation in which the rest of Israel is constantly holding back its ability to destroy

It's really in the very worst situation.

In times of peace they're not well regarded but tolerated. It's when times are very rough they must make a decision to sink or swim.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

It's really in the very worst situation.

In times of peace they're not well regarded but tolerated. It's when times are very rough they must make a decision to sink or swim.

Still, I think they can still sort of change

Take the old with the new

Get that education and advances.....though I don’t think they’ll take so kindly to what they would consider “weakness”

 

[Emperor Tippy]

‘On what basis?’ High Court sounds reluctant to bar Netanyahu from forming gov’t

'Show us something!' court president demands of petitioners. 'You're asking us to set a precedent!'; State and party lawyers urge judges not to intervene, warn of political fallout

www.timesofisrael.com

Not squarely on topic, but relevant.

 

[Midnighter13]

Don’t have jobs and don’t join the army

I’m guessing they’re barely educated or have much wealth or even use of it as well

Isn’t it the intelligence, work ethic and thriftiness that really made their lives rich even outside Israel?

To me it’s less or a Civil War and more a situation in which people have to deal with a bunch of socially regressive douchebags who don’t even have much money or value to begin with, let alone contribute much to the nations’ prosperity or wish to

Then again, if they’re in large enough numbers, they can start another situation in which the rest of Israel is constantly holding back its ability to destroy

The ultra-orthodox Jews tend to be very well educated, but that education tends to focus almost entirely on religious education. They are experts on theology, religious law, and to a lesser extent history, but learn little math and even less science. There are efforts to change this, but it is slow going. In terms of wealth, much like anywhere else there are a handful of wealthy people, and a large number of poor people. The poor just tend to be poorer among the ultra-orthodox than the secular population.

I don't think it will turn into a civil war (or at least I hope not). Things are changing among the Orthodox, and even ultra-Orthodox populations, its just quiet, happening behind the scenes, and is taking a while to filter up to the religious leaders. There are more orthodox entering the workforce, and the army than ever before. I think given time Israeli society will be able to mend the breach between religious and secular populations.

 

[Arch Dornan]

The ultra-orthodox Jews tend to be very well educated, but that education tends to focus almost entirely on religious education. They are experts on theology, religious law, and to a lesser extent history, but learn little math and even less science. There are efforts to change this, but it is slow going. In terms of wealth, much like anywhere else there are a handful of wealthy people, and a large number of poor people. The poor just tend to be poorer among the ultra-orthodox than the secular population.

I don't think it will turn into a civil war (or at least I hope not). Things are changing among the Orthodox, and even ultra-Orthodox populations, its just quiet, happening behind the scenes, and is taking a while to filter up to the religious leaders. There are more orthodox entering the workforce, and the army than ever before. I think given time Israeli society will be able to mend the breach between religious and secular populations.

That's good for their society if what gets discussed online about them is a cause for concern.

Still unsure about the civil war. The future is always random. Israel is a young country that still has its detractors. Who knows how long it's lifespan will be?

 

[CarlManvers2019]

That's good for their society if what gets discussed online about them is a cause for concern.

Still unsure about the civil war. The future is always random. Israel is a young country that still has its detractors. Who knows how long it's lifespan will be?

If those Ultra Orthodox Jews prioritize survival enough with a somewhat open mind, they'll do what they can to get work and be educated

If not, they can go live in caves, be socially regressive and sneer at a civilization doing way better in-spite of them

Though, the question is, if they get educated and employed and possibly rich, will they stop being Ultra Orthodox?

They might still think things like Israel being too "weak" when it comes to Palestine

 

[Arch Dornan]

If those Ultra Orthodox Jews prioritize survival enough with a somewhat open mind, they'll do what they can to get work and be educated

If not, they can go live in caves, be socially regressive and sneer at a civilization doing way better in-spite of them

Though, the question is, if they get educated and employed and possibly rich, will they stop being Ultra Orthodox?

They might still think things like Israel being too "weak" when it comes to Palestine

Problems for today and the future that's up to them.